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Tipu was an anti hindu ruler

The late playwright and actor Girish Karnad doesn't agree with you in this interview :
Q. You said that your remarks on Tipu were casual, but wasn't it also a bit misguided? Especially since he is a polarising figure in Karnataka. Some see him as a tyrant, others as a patriot.

A. Well, I don't care. I call him a patriot. In fact, I would not use the word 'patriot', I think he was a great king, he was a great thinker, a great strategist, and he did so much for Karnataka. I stand by what I said. I admire him. I think he is one of the best Kannadigas we had in the last 500 years, after the fall of Vijaynagar. And how much he has done for the state, I don't need to repeat it, it's all been said.

Q. But there in another side to the Tipu historiography, which sees him as someone who persecuted Hindus. How do you respond to that? Because that is also at the core of this debate.

A. Yes, but he also slaughtered Moplas. The Moplas were not Hindus, they were Muslims. The rules of warfare in the 18th century were very different from what it is today. Kerala, Coorg, Mysore and Maharashtra were all considered separate countries. People now protest as an Indian, but no. That's why I called him a Kannadiga. Now, he has got an all India reputation. He was certainly ruthless in many of his movements. But then so were everyone else. Marathas were ruthless. That was what all armies did. I'm not blaming Marathas or Tipu. You can't judge Tipu now, in the 20th century for doing what he did in the 17th century. But what you can admire him for is what he brought to the country, what he brought to Karnataka.
Please read the rest of the interview.

And Tipu was not just the first Indian freedom fighter, he was also an Internationalist :
Marxist historians, on the other hand, have viewed him as “one of the foremost commanders of independence struggle” and a “harbinger of new productive forces”.
History is unkind to Tipu Sultan. The fact is that Tipu cannot be reduced to a singular narrative or tradition of intolerance or bigotry as he represented multiple traditions. He combined tolerant inter-religious traditions, liberal and secular traditions, anti-colonialism and internationalism. He could do this as he had strong roots in Sufism, which is not explored much by historians. He belonged to the Chisti/Bande Nawaz tradition of Sufism.
He was the first to confiscate the property of upper castes, including Mutts, and distribute it among the Shudras.
His tolerance is reflected in his annual grants to no less than 156 temples, which included land deeds and jewellery. His army was largely composed of Shudras. When the famed Sringeri Mutt, established by Shankaracharya, was invaded by the Maratha army, he issued a firman to provide financial assistance for reinstallation of the holy idol and restoring the tradition of worship at the Mutt. His donation to the famous Srikanteshwara temple at Nanjangud; the donation of 10,000 gold coins to complete temple work at Kanchi; settling the disputes between two sects of priests at the Melkote temple; and gifts to Lakshmikanta temple at Kalale are all well-known. Interestingly, Srirangapatna, a temple town, remained his permanent capital till the end of his rule. He was also instrumental in constructing the first-ever church in Mysuru. Incidentally, well-known historian B.A. Saletore calls him “defender of Hindu Dharma”.

The allegation of forcible conversions has to be seen in the background of political exigencies — either they were with the colonialists such as in the case of Christians of Dakshina Kannada, or were waging a protracted guerrilla war as in the case of Coorg. Here, historians have distorted the facts by reducing political exigencies to the “communal ideology” of Tipu.
A ruler, who once identified himself with the American and French Revolution and Jacobinism, has remained an enigma to many.
 
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is India really an educated place ?
From whom you're comparing? 2020's USA or 50s India? Don't you see untouchability has lessened? Don't you see the Polygamy has fallen down in all religions? Is this not a step forward?
What is the point of this literacy if it has not released people from socio-economic oppression and injustice ?
It have, of course it have. In general, all Indians have. Do you see Brahmins doing Sambandam nowadays?
About a month or so ago I watched a vid forwarded on WhatsApp where a young man ( "educated" ) was delivering a moralistic lecture in a hall to some young women who were probably medical or engineering students in a Muslim dominated college ( seeing the hijabs and burqas ). The man was making loaded and pre-emptive statements like "I know you don't go to parks and cinemas...". Some of the women were crying.
That's where you get Islamophobic. Basing beliefs on some random anecdotal evidence. The same incidents are present in other communities but we don't say they're regressing, why?
I will ask you what are these stats you refer to ?
Polygamous marriages, practices like Halala, women literacy and countless more.
But there are Indian Muslims like Mehdi Masroor Biswas, Mujeeb Mohammed, Yasin Bhatkal and the ISIS recruits from Kerala.
There's a flaw in the argument, Tablighi Jamaat have existed since 1920s but they're all recent; what's the deal? The thing is that their timeline coincides with the "Global Jihad", as some will put it and some internal conflicts like post-Babri riots. This so-called radicalisation is independent and different from the bettering of the social indicators as I put it above.
Secondly, there have been waves of riots and Hindu radicalisation since 1947 but nevertheless the macro-trend towards progressivism continued, for example see the RSS's stand on constitution in 1947 but now they can't say that bluntly nor believe that stand feasible, why? because progress, we moved past that point. The same argument I will put for Muslims.
What has been their growth platform in India and what do they want in India ?
"their"? Don't you see yourself as a Muslim? And We want equality and representation.
This is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

If we compete, we will be left out on discriminatory grounds.
So we won't compete.
Ah, see, we are left out; look at our percentage penetration into [insert segment], against our share of the population.
Let us assume they are true, and there is discrimination. I know there is; and it is not worth sweeping it under the carpet. So do we tackle this by withdrawing from the system, or by engaging with it so completely that the gates finally start crumbling?
Exactly, that was my point. It's a cycle but who's responsible for this cycle? Muslims or government or both? There needs to be co-ordinated efforts from both sides to correct the wrongs but again it's a touchy subject from a political point of view.
You need to make this assessment; my making it will put your back up. What percentage of the Ulema is regressive? 10%? 20%? 30%? More?

Think about it.
There are two things here
1) How many Ulema are regressive, call it x (in fraction).
2) How much influence they carry (in the fraction of population), call it y.
My understanding tells that regardless of the first factor (x), the second factor (y) is not significantly different from rest of the population, so blaming all the material problems the Muslims face on the Ulema or say religious backing is fallacious.
 
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From whom you're comparing? 2020's USA or 50s India? Don't you see untouchability has lessened? Don't you see the Polygamy has fallen down in all religions? Is this not a step forward?

I think there is a little bit of wire-crossing here. My reading is that @jamahir is saying that we should not confuse literacy, or technical training and an attendant acquisition of working English, with proper learning and education. Somebody else made a punishing point to that effect; I will include that reference in a few minutes.

You seem to be saying that even then, with an increase in literacy, there is an inescapable exposure to modernisation. You have quoted social factors showing progress.

On this I have to take sides with Jamahir, because the greatest and swiftest acquisition of literacy and concomitant grasp of English has happened to those rural folks who flooded into the cities and, through literacy and technical training, gained jobs, economic security, and the confidence to assert their opinions as they are without modifying to suit the older norms that had prevailed.

We have a situation where these factors, literacy,English learning and job acquisition, bring considerable benefits to an individual, and these benefits get translated into political power; they also pull an individual out of the rural morass, and allow modern practices an opportunity to come into behaviour patterns. It is too early to tell, but perhaps it is a complex process taking place here - the journey of modernisation reinforcing older primitive habits and value systems on the one hand, and these primitive habits and value systems undergoing erosion and decay on the other. A short term process and a medium term one.

We have to hope hard and wait and see.
 
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they might object to the nickname or proper name Tipu, because of their own harsh treatment at his .hands
There are many people named Tipu in Kerala as well. Nicknames, but names nonetheless.

What harsh treatment are you talking about?
 
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There are many people named Tipu in Kerala as well. Nicknames, but names nonetheless.

What harsh treatment are you talking about?

He led a punishing military campaign in northern Kerala. It is still remembered. Read the comments of Gadkari-turned-Andhadhun in his latest avatar.

Incidentally, this campaign targeted the Moplahs. So much for his uniform Islamism.

It have, of course it have. In general, all Indians have. Do you see Brahmins doing Sambandam nowadays?

No, that has stopped (I think). If you ask Manish the Mirkwood Muckworm, that was a sign of one particular community's progressive and enlightened freedom given to women. So what you win on the swings, you lose on the roundabouts.
 
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@jamahir bhai sincerely stay off the type of whatsapp groups where you see such videos bro (women crying, radical preaching).....

I know you keep saying political contacts, and you're obviously an IT geek, bit there is a very unhappy precedent close to home for me ...

Just purge crappy social media footprint. For mental peace.
 
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@jamahir Of all the Indian Muslims on this forum (actually I doubt some of them are even Indian Muslims), you are definitely one of the most progressive and enlightened. I may not agree with some of your views (no one can agree to anyone on all the points) but I can assure you that if majority of Muslims were like you, not just India but most of the world would have been at peace.

I have observed most Muslims want to go back to being regressive instead of progressive but you want the opposite and that's very crucial. I have said this earlier and I repeat again, it's very very important for humanity to be atleast somewhat in sync to progress as a whole.

Of all the Indian Muslims on this forum
Scratch this to 'Of all Muslims on the forum, you are one of the most progressive and enlightened'.
 
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@jamahir Of all the Indian Muslims on this forum (actually I doubt some of them are even Indian Muslims), you are definitely one of the most progressive and enlightened. I may not agree with some of your views (no one can agree to anyone on all the points) but I can assure you that if majority of Muslims were like you, not just India but most of the world would have been at peace.

I have observed most Muslims want to go back to being regressive instead of progressive but you want the opposite and that's very crucial. I have said this earlier and I repeat again, it's very very important for humanity to be atleast somewhat in sync to progress as a whole.


Scratch this to 'Of all Muslims on the forum, you are one of the most progressive and enlightened'.

Translation:
Jamahir - we can deal with you because you don't oppose with much of what we are doing to "those" Muslims. You will be among the last marched to the gas chambers
 
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@jamahir Of all the Indian Muslims on this forum (actually I doubt some of them are even Indian Muslims), you are definitely one of the most progressive and enlightened. I may not agree with some of your views (no one can agree to anyone on all the points) but I can assure you that if majority of Muslims were like you, not just India but most of the world would have been at peace.

I have observed most Muslims want to go back to being regressive instead of progressive but you want the opposite and that's very crucial. I have said this earlier and I repeat again, it's very very important for humanity to be atleast somewhat in sync to progress as a whole.


Scratch this to 'Of all Muslims on the forum, you are one of the most progressive and enlightened'.

Jamahir is not what he speaks like
 
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@jamahir bhai sincerely stay off the type of whatsapp groups where you see such videos bro (women crying, radical preaching).....

I know you keep saying political contacts, and you're obviously an IT geek,

Taking your advise I have just now removed myself from the one group I was in.

And it wasn't part of any political movement but something a relative of mine had added me in. Anyway, gone now.

bit there is a very unhappy precedent close to home for me ...

Would you like to share that here ?

If you ask Manish the Mirkwood Muckworm

Who ?

@jamahir Of all the Indian Muslims on this forum (actually I doubt some of them are even Indian Muslims), you are definitely one of the most progressive and enlightened. I may not agree with some of your views (no one can agree to anyone on all the points) but I can assure you that if majority of Muslims were like you, not just India but most of the world would have been at peace.

I have observed most Muslims want to go back to being regressive instead of progressive but you want the opposite and that's very crucial.

Scratch this to 'Of all Muslims on the forum, you are one of the most progressive and enlightened'.

Thanks very much for the words of appreciation. :)

I have said this earlier and I repeat again, it's very very important for humanity to be atleast somewhat in sync to progress as a whole.

Agreed.
 
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Toughest jobs in India are Home Minister and UP Chief Minister, Prime Minister job is different. PM is expected to manage expectations and Optics. Not the same as being competent at one job.

How are two unrelated?
 
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Taking your advise I have just now removed myself from the one group I was in.

And it wasn't part of any political movement but something a relative of mine had added me in. Anyway, gone now.



Would you like to share that here ?



Who ?





Thanks very much for the words of appreciation. :)



Agreed.

There is a movement gaining steam in India.

India fatigued by the toxicity from both sides. Mainly the sanghi side.

It's trending hashtag

#matkarforward

Whatsapp is as bad as corona virus. Worse because it kills a lot more.

You may want to try out a new line but mine is standard Indian Parsi refugee one -

I tell the person clearly bhai/bhaijaan, you are a big community. I am a Parsi. Please don't send this stuff to me.

The forwards stop.
 
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The late playwright and actor Girish Karnad doesn't agree with you in this interview :

Please read the rest of the interview.

And Tipu was not just the first Indian freedom fighter, he was also an Internationalist :

Tipu Sultan is viewed very positively in Pakistan and many Pakistanis are named after him. His name is very popular, just like the name Aurangzeb, Babur, Iqbal, etc.

Why are the Hindu right demonizing him? He was very fair and just to Hindus.

He would have succeeded in his war against the British, if the Nawab of Hyderabad had not sided against him. This shows that whenever Muslims are in disunity, outsiders take advantage.
 
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