A Homeland for Indian Muslims

[PradoTLC]

We talked about it: for you to teach us how to be donkeys.

why?..

what for?.. donkey option is standard for indians.

 

[Nilgiri]

And now YOU, sitting in the heart of Coimbatore, are making judgements about 'ex-Indians'?

Yes...because their heart and soul is turned against India completely. It doesn't need much to see which cases are like that.

Sorry Joe I have seen just what that degenerate hitting a like on your post has typed about my people and my culture and my country (repeatedly, thinking no one's really paying attention to its filthy activity)... @itsanufy has seen the worst of it too as far as this place goes. It would not bear repeating....because Bengali is beautiful language that should never have such words spoken or typed...so casually..and for purpose totally against his claimed faith/identity (that other muslims have even picked upon increasingly now with this character dubiousness and shallowness for sake of shock-jock extremity)...and actually any common sense basis of alignment to good.

Years back I also chanced upon article that said al-baghdadi ordered an "islam for dummies" book to learn to fill up and refresh and reform for his "grand" purpose "better" in some way. Don't know how anecdotal that stuff was, but its stuck in my mind whenever I see awful extremists in general (including for my faith) who forge evil purpose and then fill in and distort things secondarily to it.

I don't follow doc's definition (ex-Indian) on it if that is what you are assuming here....just the terminology. Some have passed the red line I have by such a degree....and there is not much but to leave them adrift exactly where they have chosen to position themselves with scurvy rotten crew and rat infested driftwood.

They can prove their redemption in the outside world if they so desire, I don't really need to see their dull, stagnant wax-on wax-off game here anymore.

His type always ironically and sometimes hilariously says the evil jews/zionists control everything including the internet...and then cant help themselves using said internet for these deep recesses of sentiment purposes (that have now more and more feedback loop study on likely actions down road).

He really is not too bright in the end obviously to do what he does leaving all this evidence (on twitter of all places) thinking hes some anonymous fellow that stays anonymous from all. Thats all his decision..and his consequences to face. He doesnt seem to get what govts (esp in the west, incl down under) are increasingly developing, deploying and monitoring on things like end node analysis...and where they compile that and for what reason later....ever since 9/11. Anyway...thats dark side of things I have been told in very credible terms that I don't want to get into....other than if he gets caught in that dragnet, thats on him.

So its all just waste of time in end getting too much into this stuff and thinking too much about it.... I can call such people ex-Indian and leave it at that.

 

[padamchen]

Yes...because their heart and soul is turned against India completely. It doesn't need much to see which cases are like that.

Sorry Joe I have seen just what that degenerate hitting a like on your post has typed about my people and my culture and my country (repeatedly, thinking no one's really paying attention to its filthy activity)... @itsanufy has seen the worst of it too as far as this place goes. It would not bear repeating....because Bengali is beautiful language that should never have such words spoken or typed...so casually..and for purpose totally against his claimed faith/identity (that other muslims have even picked upon increasingly now with this character dubiousness and shallowness for sake of shock-jock extremity)...and actually any common sense basis of alignment to good.

Years back I also chanced upon article that said al-baghdadi ordered an "islam for dummies" book to learn to fill up and refresh and reform for his "grand" purpose "better" in some way. Don't know how anecdotal that stuff was, but its stuck in my mind whenever I see awful extremists in general (including for my faith) who forge evil purpose and then fill in and distort things secondarily to it.

I don't follow doc's definition (ex-Indian) on it if that is what you are assuming here....just the terminology. Some have passed the red line I have by such a degree....and there is not much but to leave them adrift exactly where they have chosen to position themselves with scurvy rotten crew and rat infested driftwood.

They can prove their redemption in the outside world if they so desire, I don't really need to see their dull, stagnant wax-on wax-off game here anymore.

His type always ironically and sometimes hilariously says the evil jews/zionists control everything including the internet...and then cant help themselves using said internet for these deep recesses of sentiment purposes (that have now more and more feedback loop study on likely actions down road).

He really is not too bright in the end obviously to do what he does leaving all this evidence (on twitter of all places) thinking hes some anonymous fellow that stays anonymous from all. Thats all his decision..and his consequences to face. He doesnt seem to get what govts (esp in the west, incl down under) are increasingly developing, deploying and monitoring on things like end node analysis...and where they compile that and for what reason later....ever since 9/11. Anyway...thats dark side of things I have been told in very credible terms that I don't want to get into....other than if he gets caught in that dragnet, thats on him.

So its all just waste of time in end getting too much into this stuff and thinking too much about it.... I can call such people ex-Indian and leave it at that.

What is it exactly about Doc's postulates that you do not agree?

No 2 criteria I'm guessing ... I think I added preferably exactly for patriots like you.

Where I find a sanghi foaming at the mouth about my refugee origins, I equally effectively weaponise the same.

In the end it's clear to all who is most invested. Holistically.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Nilgiri]

And I realise that free speech is there, blazing like a beacon in front of us, and free expression is not. Free speech, and a litmus test. It is so sensible, why didn't we think of it earlier?

LOL where does free speech say it must be followed by automatic listening. People can put up soapbox and scream things as much as they want to. I don't have to elect to be there and listen to it all. I got stuff to do, like fishing for walleye under a bridge I know elsewhere....peace and quiet is great!

What is it exactly about Doc's postulates that you do not agree?

No 2 criteria I'm guessing ... I think I added preferably exactly for patriots like you.

Where I find a sanghi foaming at the mouth about my refugee origins, I equally effectively weaponise the same.

In the end it's clear to all who is most invested. Holistically.

Cheers, Doc

Long convo my friend. Bed time for me, we will pick it up later.

You are 100000% about the disgusting sanghi ppl that will attack you about your origins. They are in another category altogether.... but quite pitiful one all the same like ex-Indians.

I've had attacks too by people for being a southie and thus not "proper" Indian in whatever implied way....purity tests are awful if you give them oxygen and recognition in any shape, way and form. ... mostly because they can just keep going...wheres the end?

Its best you just reject idiots for being idiots...cretins for being cretins. Simple policy and when you are downstream enough in life, it really ought to be apparent to anyone decent and iota of brain matter if you ask me.

 

[padamchen]

LOL where does free speech say it must be followed by automatic listening. People can put up soapbox and scream things as much as they want to. I don't have to elect to be there and listen to it all. I got stuff to do, like fishing for walleye under a bridge I know elsewhere....peace and quiet is great!



Long convo my friend. Bed time for me, we will pick it up later.

You are 100000% about the disgusting sanghi ppl that will attack you about your origins. They are in another category altogether.... but quite pitiful one all the same like ex-Indians.

I've had attacks too by people for being a southie and thus not "proper" Indian in whatever implied way....purity tests are awful if you give them oxygen and recognition in any shape, way and form. ... mostly because they can just keep going...wheres the end?

Its best you just reject idiots for being idiots...cretins for being cretins. Simple policy and when you are downstream enough in life, it really ought to be apparent to anyone decent and iota of brain matter if you ask me.

Satya vachan.

This thread has clarified this about a lot of people.

To a lot of people.

 

[TheGreatMaratha]

Just spent an hour cleaning my palak and kothmir and curry patta carefully.

How did this get into a discussion on homelands for Indian muslims?

Don't overwash them otherwise you will lose the essential nutrients.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Don't overwash them otherwise you will lose the essential nutrients.

Did you mean the veggies, or Muslim Indians?

Yes...because their heart and soul is turned against India completely. It doesn't need much to see which cases are like that.

Sorry Joe I have seen just what that degenerate hitting a like on your post has typed about my people and my culture and my country (repeatedly, thinking no one's really paying attention to its filthy activity)... @itsanufy has seen the worst of it too as far as this place goes. It would not bear repeating....because Bengali is beautiful language that should never have such words spoken or typed...so casually..and for purpose totally against his claimed faith/identity (that other muslims have even picked upon increasingly now with this character dubiousness and shallowness for sake of shock-jock extremity)...and actually any common sense basis of alignment to good.

Years back I also chanced upon article that said al-baghdadi ordered an "islam for dummies" book to learn to fill up and refresh and reform for his "grand" purpose "better" in some way. Don't know how anecdotal that stuff was, but its stuck in my mind whenever I see awful extremists in general (including for my faith) who forge evil purpose and then fill in and distort things secondarily to it.

I don't follow doc's definition (ex-Indian) on it if that is what you are assuming here....just the terminology. Some have passed the red line I have by such a degree....and there is not much but to leave them adrift exactly where they have chosen to position themselves with scurvy rotten crew and rat infested driftwood.

They can prove their redemption in the outside world if they so desire, I don't really need to see their dull, stagnant wax-on wax-off game here anymore.

His type always ironically and sometimes hilariously says the evil jews/zionists control everything including the internet...and then cant help themselves using said internet for these deep recesses of sentiment purposes (that have now more and more feedback loop study on likely actions down road).

He really is not too bright in the end obviously to do what he does leaving all this evidence (on twitter of all places) thinking hes some anonymous fellow that stays anonymous from all. Thats all his decision..and his consequences to face. He doesnt seem to get what govts (esp in the west, incl down under) are increasingly developing, deploying and monitoring on things like end node analysis...and where they compile that and for what reason later....ever since 9/11. Anyway...thats dark side of things I have been told in very credible terms that I don't want to get into....other than if he gets caught in that dragnet, thats on him.

So its all just waste of time in end getting too much into this stuff and thinking too much about it.... I can call such people ex-Indian and leave it at that.

I get from this that there are classes and categories within ex-Indians, and that there are those that retain a claim to the regard and admiration of those who are still in-country, and continuously striving to make it a better place, and those who have, in the judgement of other ex-Indians, quaintly, lost any claim to such regard and admiration.

If this seems equitable to you as a class or group judgement, it speaks for itself, and there is nothing for me to add. Whatever judgement I make is right here on this forum, and based on exchanges on this forum, it being impossible for me to follow up each and every worm's cast of evidence lying in wait all over the WWW.

Let me simply say that I think this is invidious and leave it at that. You, of course, are endlessly free to respond, and equally free to aid and abet idle-minded racists and bigots in preference to those who have actually contributed to the country that everybody else seems to hold so dear, and that everybody else seems to be able to direct with such consummate ease.

LOL where does free speech say it must be followed by automatic listening. People can put up soapbox and scream things as much as they want to. I don't have to elect to be there and listen to it all. I got stuff to do, like fishing for walleye under a bridge I know elsewhere....peace and quiet is great!

Long convo my friend. Bed time for me, we will pick it up later.

You are 100000% about the disgusting sanghi ppl that will attack you about your origins. They are in another category altogether.... but quite pitiful one all the same like ex-Indians.

I've had attacks too by people for being a southie and thus not "proper" Indian in whatever implied way....purity tests are awful if you give them oxygen and recognition in any shape, way and form. ... mostly because they can just keep going...wheres the end?

Its best you just reject idiots for being idiots...cretins for being cretins. Simple policy and when you are downstream enough in life, it really ought to be apparent to anyone decent and iota of brain matter if you ask me.

You must be right.

Some posts back, somebody posted a wicked meme of Field Marshal Idi Amin stating flatly that it was possible to guarantee free speech; it was not possible to guarantee freedom after speech.

Quite so; to find oneself in such august company, a Field Marshal, no less, is an excellent index of moral rectitude.

Generally there is little else left unsaid.

Apparently the rule that operates in this parallel universe is that everybody is right except one solitary Tom o'Bedlam. With those mental limitations, it is to be hoped that an inability to display overflowing admiration for the views expressed will be forgiven.

 

[TheGreatMaratha]

Did you mean the veggies, or Muslim Indians?

Veggies

 

[padamchen]

@jamahir hi

 

[Akshay Kamath]

Hello, Just saying if you are expecting Indian Muslims to come and stay in Pakistan and adopt it as their own culture, that won't happen in a million years because they are used to all the facilities provided by the government of India as they are considered Minorities and ofcourse the standard of living is way higher than yours. Just saying no offence meant as I think the entire post is a waste and there is no use debating about the same.

 

[jamahir]

A kid named Tipu will get bullied in school

Really? The last Tipu I knew not only dominated his school, and college, and post-graduate programme, besides playing cricket for his college and universities (two of them, separately, one after the other), but went on to join the RN (not the RIN), transfer to the Fleet Air Arm, and inducted the Alize into Squadron 310, then commanded a destroyer squadron, a frigate squadron, then INS Vikrani, then the Eastern Fleet, and held the DNI position at a moment of great insecurity, sinking more tonnage than the rest of the Navy put together, and retired as FOC-in-C Eastern Command.

Maybe people who want to do well should be naming themselves Tipu.

I have a client who named his new born son Narendra Modi 2 months ago, so what your flinging at the Muslims can be flug right back; to suggest someone's name would change towards the worst is the height of stupidity and absurd on all levels. As I said before your Sanghis are now throwing darts randomly and claiming a win on fudge up analysis.

You greatly misunderstood my post. Tipu and Nasser were both great people. I was just saying that among the present common Muslim Indians, an enlightened approach to Muslim history is not present. If it was, it would have been indicated by things like naming their children after truly great people like the aforementioned two.

That won't change the reality of who Tipu Sultan was.

Who was he ?

Muslims can make it to CRPF but even at jawan level not easy

There is the Army's Jammu and Kashmir Light Infantry regiment which has many Muslims :

The regiment mostly consists of volunteers from the state of Jammu & Kashmir. 50% of the regiment's troops are Muslims while the rest represent other ethnic groups from the state.The Jammu and Kahmir Light Infantry is considered to be the most decorated regiment of the Indian army having won 1 Param Veer Chakra and 3 Ashok Chakra.

But yes, it is not a visible part of the army.

What in your view will it take Owaisi to forge s pan India party that enjoys the mandate of all (or most) Indian Muslims?

Is it possible?

If it is, do you realise the power your community would wield at the center?

Islam being political or not is not the question or the problem. The problem is Islamist supremacism. That is what Islamism means.

This supremacism leads to unequal laws in society not just between different genders but also unequal laws being to people of different faiths. Essentially, it is a regression from modernism which is moving towards recognizing and treating the smallest minority as an individual, to recognizing people on the basis of their faiths and giving other faiths lesser rights.

Therefore, combating Islamism and getting people of Dharmic faiths to better recognize the difference between Muslims and Islamists is the challenge in India.

That said, as Saudi Arabia, the leader of the Muslim, has started modernizing, it would have a positive effect not just on Muslim psyche but also non-Muslim perception of Muslims.
Giving more rights to women and ultimately equal rights to all genders is the goal.

Who told you that Saudia is the leader of Muslims ? I would say in Gaddafi's time it was Libya.

Saudia is a creation of Britain and later a protectee of USA.

That changes the entire argument.

Here's a photo of women in the pre-2011 Libyan army :

Therefore, combating Islamism and getting people of Dharmic faiths to better recognize the difference between Muslims and Islamists is the challenge in India.

Giving more rights to women and ultimately equal rights to all genders is the goal.

The non-Muslims in India ( as also many Muslims in India ) need to be made aware of the contribution of India of True Islam and work of Muslims who have truly understood the message of Islam. For example, read this thread of mine that I posted in 2015 and it quotes an article that speaks of a ministerial-level call for prenups in Indian marriages. The article was written by a Christian woman who married under Islamic law because that helped her better secure her legal and economic status in the marriage. I quote the initial bits of that thread :

Maneka Gandhi, minister of women and child development, recently gave a call for prenuptial agreements to be recognised in India. According to her, if the terms for division of property, guardianship of children and spousal support are settled prior to marriage, divorces will be less acrimonious and disputes could be resolved expeditiously.

In the discussions that followed, as to whether such a step will, in fact, safeguard the rights of women, there was no mention that this concept is already rooted in Islamic law of marriage since the 7th century. The nikahnama, an Islamic marriage contract is, in fact, a prenuptial agreement that outlines the rights and responsibilities of the parties and provides for conditions to be included for safeguarding a woman’s rights upon marriage.

One wonders why a reference to the Islamic law was not made either by the minister or other experts. Married Muslim women, we find, are often on a higher and more secure footing than their counterparts from other religions. In fact, as a Christian marrying a Muslim, I chose to marry under the Muslim personal law, even over the seemingly modern Special Marriage Act, 1954, to better secure my economic rights. My mehr was a house in my name and my nikahnama includes necessary clauses to safeguard my and my children’s rights. My husband’s family members were witness to this document, which is registered and enforceable by law.

Please read the rest of the article.

Your ideas about the Taliban are just as wrong as the Tabligh.

I disagree but this is an argument for another time

The whole Muslim world is experiencing increases religiosity, it is not only Indian Muslims.

Some places, it is Tabligh, and other places like Pakistan, it is political and social change and increased conservatism.

Increased religiosity... take that Golden Age thread for instance. Do you really think some of the members there really know Islam ? That picture there in post# 2 really shows what most Muslims have sadly become.

But I agree with you that there is an increase in the world what many Muslims take to be Muslim values but which are not.

Give people an alternative and let them choose. The more popular idea will catch on.

Yes, there need to be a popularization of what Muslims were just decades ago, when legends like Mandela and Carlos ( the jackal ) found ideological solidarity with enlightened Muslims.

Of course, I will deny. Whatever someone says, literacy rates, female participation etc have increased. I see many young Muslim women carving out there space and their families supporting them which was probably not possible in the previous generation, you may say "Hijab is still forced blah blah" but stats have improved.

Literacy is the means towards education but is not education itself. India probably has a huge percentage of college graduates in the world but is India really an educated place ?

What is the point of this literacy if it has not released people from socio-economic oppression and injustice ?

About a month or so ago I watched a vid forwarded on WhatsApp where a young man ( "educated" ) was delivering a moralistic lecture in a hall to some young women who were probably medical or engineering students in a Muslim dominated college ( seeing the hijabs and burqas ). The man was making loaded and pre-emptive statements like "I know you don't go to parks and cinemas...". Some of the women were crying.

I will ask you what are these stats you refer to ?

The thing to worry about is that relative speed is slow but to say we're going to be the next Taliban/Al-Qaeda would be a gross exaggeration.

But there are Indian Muslims like Mehdi Masroor Biswas, Mujeeb Mohammed, Yasin Bhatkal and the ISIS recruits from Kerala.

What has been their growth platform in India and what do they want in India ?

Wait.

So you mean to say, subtly, that Nasser is BETTER than Tipu?

Why are you twisting my words ?

If Nasser and Tipu had lived in the same era both would have been allies. Tipu the Internationalist and Nasser a leading figure among Muslims not only in Africa and the Arab world but also elsewhere.

A Soviet secularist pawn who led Egypt to disastrous defeats, destroyed Arab unity for good is better than one of the first original fighters against the British imperialists?

What is wrong in being a secularist ?

And the Soviet Union had allies not pawns. The pawns are those who are allied with NATO and CIA - like Saudia and other such.

What in your view will it take Owaisi to forge s pan India party that enjoys the mandate of all (or most) Indian Muslims?

Is it possible?

If it is, do you realise the power your community would wield at the center?

Your question partially answers itself. Indian Muslims don't require another Muslim Party ( there are three I think - Kerala, Assam, Telangana ). They need to support a party or umbrella movement that will look at the socio-economic problems of all Indian citizens including Muslims.

I would ask Owaisi to stop being reluctant in addressing India's very real problems and set about to form such an umbrella movement.

@jamahir hi

Hello. I was typing the long replies on this thread from yesterday's quotes so didn't answer your post now.

Going to the shower now, will return in half hour or so.

 

[AfrazulMandal]

Tipu was an anti hindu ruler and hence he died like a dog. Period

No. He probably killed dogs.

Sanghis like you would have been roasted alive in his reign. There would have been none of this nonsense.

He died like a Lion.

 

[vegav]

No. He probably killed dogs.

Sanghis like you would have been roasted alive in his reign. There would have been none of this nonsense.

He died like a Lion.

Lol. Sach kadwa hota hain.

No. He probably killed dogs.

Sanghis like you would have been roasted alive in his reign. There would have been none of this nonsense.

He died like a Lion.

We made him run away from Travancore like an invalid.

 

[jamahir]

A kid named Tipu will get bullied in school

Really? The last Tipu I knew not only dominated his school, and college, and post-graduate programme, besides playing cricket for his college and universities (two of them, separately, one after the other), but went on to join the RN (not the RIN), transfer to the Fleet Air Arm, and inducted the Alize into Squadron 310, then commanded a destroyer squadron, a frigate squadron, then INS Vikrani, then the Eastern Fleet, and held the DNI position at a moment of great insecurity, sinking more tonnage than the rest of the Navy put together, and retired as FOC-in-C Eastern Command.

Maybe people who want to do well should be naming themselves Tipu.

In the previous post I quoted above posts but did not reply so I will do so below.

I don't know vegav's intention but I understand what he alludes to, that it might no longer be possible that a boy is named Tipu and he goes through his young years untroubled ( bullying in school, mild discrimination etc ).

As Joe said, there would have been many Tipus in earlier decades.

 

[Joe Shearer]

In the previous post I quoted above posts but did not reply so I will do so below.

I don't know vegav's intention but I understand what he alludes to, that it might no longer be possible that a boy is named Tipu and he goes through his young years untroubled ( bullying in school, mild discrimination etc ).

As Joe said, there would have been many Tipus in earlier decades.

I took objection to that silly generalisation became it depends entirely on the regional context. For instance, although Kerala is normally a very broad-minded kind of place, they might object to the nickname or proper name Tipu, because of their own harsh treatment at his .hands. It is doubtful that anybody would be bothered in Tamil Nadu. And so it goes, state to state, sub-region to sub-region.