A confused Pakistani

[Rafael]

You guys have such negative opinion about Pakistan as if everyone who live there is extremist. I can say surely that vast majority of Pakistani are not extremist and they are against any religious extremism.I am not even talking about educated people but no sane Pakistani like terrorism and killing of innocent in the name of Islam or jihad. You guys should stop looking at Pakistani from western suspicious eyes Also if someone talk about Islam don't mean he is extremist

Pakistani society is much more extremist than what you think. I live here and know how is it like..

 

[Rafael]

Thoraa ziyaadaa hogiyaa hai Rafael ! The same 160 million was doing just about fine during the Musharaf era & the one before that.

They were not doing 'just fine' as you say armstrong. Yes, the economy and law & order situation was a little better but this extremism and violent tendencies were always there.

 

[Armstrong]

They were not doing 'just fine' as you say armstrong. Yes, the economy and law & order were a little better but this extremism and violent tendencies were always there.

Yaaraa I know what you're talking about ! People distributing pamphlets at the end of the Jummah prayer reading out 'Ahmedi wajibul qatal hai' & the sort but the point is barring them bearded ******** most Pakistanis are so messed up with simply putting food on the table that they're either parroting someone else's rhetoric or they're indifferent to this BS ! Its not extremism or violent tendencies in the same vein as those possessed by the Talibunnies; which is to say that aren't incurable in the least for they are ! They are very much curable & the answer is education & exposure. The exposure part has already made enormous strides in people actively condemning the TTP for their brutalities to people (all & sundry) condemning the wanton arson & damage to public property during those 'Protest Rallies for the Prophet'. The education part will come in time & is intrinsically linked with a better government at the helm; thats why all our fingers & toes are crossed in favor of Imran Khan or at the very least someone who is less corrupt than the current regime...even Nawaz would do it ! Give us a decade or two & those that can be saved (and believe me they are the majority...by far the majority of them) will be.

 

[Developereo]

People distributing pamphlets at the end of the Jummah prayer reading out 'Ahmedi wajibul qatal hai'
[...]
The education part will come in time

I think that's the part to note. We always say that education will cure this, and jobs will cure that, and it will all happen in due time, but the other part of the cure is to stop the hatemongers in the first place. This we can do TODAY.

Anyone distributing those pamphlets needs to be arrested, as well as the ideological leaders promoting those views. And the organization they represent needs to be shut down.

It's not about doing America's bidding or India's or the UN's. It's about saving Pakistani lives.

 

[Armstrong]

I think that's the part to note. We always say that education will cure this, and jobs will cure that, and it will all happen in due time, but the other part of the cure is to stop the hatemongers in the first place. This we can do TODAY.

Anyone distributing those pamphlets needs to be arrested, as well as the ideological leaders promoting those views. And the organization they represent needs to be shut down.

It's not about doing America's bidding or India's or the UN's. It's about saving Pakistani lives.

Of course there can be no two ways about this ! Its a dysfunctional system being run by a corrupt Bureaucracy & Political cadre that provides these elements the perfect vacuum to exploit in. And so I firmly believe that as soon as the Governance reverts to something with some semblance of functionality to it...these hatemongers (and others like them albeit of a color other than religious extremism) will find the noose tightening around their respective necks.

 

[Developereo]

Next, with all due respect Pak seems to have learnt nothing from Dec 16 , 1971. The same mistakes are being repeated.The nation it appears needs someone to gang up against and speak ill of. After the Bengali Babu it’s the Baluchis turn.

I agree with part of your post, but not this part.

Most of Pakistani civil society never had any ill will towards the Bengalis; most people were quite unaware of the extent of the rift. Even today, most people are ashamed of the way the situation was handled.

Similarly, with Baluchistan, most people have the utmost respect for the rights of the Baluchi people; our fight is with a handful of Baluchi feudal lords (sardars) and their agenda, not the Baluchi ethnicity or the wider community.

 

[Armstrong]

I agree with part of your post, but not this part.

Most of Pakistani civil society never had any ill will towards the Bengalis; most people were quite unaware of the extent of the rift. Even today, most people are ashamed of the way the situation was handled.

Similarly, with Baluchistan, most people have the utmost respect for the rights of the Baluchi people; our fight is with a handful of Baluchi feudal lords (sardars) and their agenda, not the Baluchi ethnicity or the wider community.

Yes but I fear that in the sense of shame...some of the truths of our narrative are being drowned ! If we are to correct the mistakes of the past it must come through an intensive method of self-appraisal instead of taking someone else's narrative & elevating it to the status of a gospel. Yes we fudged up but there weren't saints on the other side either; neither was the Agartalla Conspiracy a figment of our imagination nor was the demand for the Bengali Language to be treated on par with Urdu despite us (non-native Urdu speaker) having no problem with Urdu as our National Language, an act of goodwill by our brothers in the East. We mustn't ignore our wrongs but nor must we accept all that is pinned to our heads - I fear that we're doing exactly that.

 

[Developereo]

Yes but I fear that in the sense of shame...some of the truths of our narrative are being drowned ! If we are to correct the mistakes of the past it must come through an intensive method of self-appraisal instead of taking someone else's narrative & elevating it to the status of a gospel. Yes we fudged up but there weren't saints on the other side either; neither was the Agartalla Conspiracy a figment of our imagination nor was the demand for the Bengali Language to be treated on par with Urdu despite us (non-native Urdu speaker) having no problem with Urdu as our National Language, an act of goodwill by our brothers in the East. We mustn't ignore our wrongs but nor must we accept all that is pinned to our heads - I fear that we're doing exactly that.

I agree there was nefarious conduct on their side also, not least their treatment of biharis and others. However, they were the largest group by far ethnically and linguistically. I don't see why we couldn't have worked out a compromise on many things. There are many countries in the world (Switzerland, India) where more than one language is elevated to national stature.

 

[VCheng]

VCheng, let me rephrase my question:
Who are these people in Pakistan who want change?
What are they doing about it.


Pakistani's constantly say that they have a moderate majority, etc, etc. But we dont see that. What we see are Taliban's blowing people up, Pakistani's blowing other people up(of any nation), Murderer's being feted by educated lawyers, cold drinks banned because they were owned by an Ahmadiya, killings of shia's, etc.

I dont see the average Joe asking for Blasphemy laws to be removed. I dont see the average Joe demonstrating and demanding(not asking) for anti-Ahmadiya laws to be repealed.

So if the average Joe Pakistani wants a change, what is he doing about it? Waiting for better days by the grace of God?

The vast majority of Pakistanis want what any sane person would want: a secure, happy life, with access to education, health, and opportunity. They have no realistic chances of getting any of those things in the prevailing system.

You are intertwining two separate things: what the Taleban are doing are the consequences of failed policies of the past reverberating through the area. What the feting of the murderer of Salman Taseer, banning Shezan drinks, the support for blasphemy laws and persecution of minorities such as the Ahmadis, shows are the deviant responses and reactions carefully manipulated to maintain a razor edge of borderline chaos, so that those in control can negotiate with others as guarantors of stability. Much of that is intentional, but entails accepting serious risks too.

Interesting, it shows that Pakistani's were ok and infact maybe supportive of suicide bombings in the name of Islam when they were being carried out in other nations - like India. But as soon as they started in Pakistan, their views changed and they take the high road - 'these types of attacks can never be justified'.

That would be a fair assessment and in keeping with human nature.

 

[474474]

Interesting, it shows that Pakistani's were ok and infact maybe supportive of suicide bombings in the name of Islam when they were being carried out in other nations - like India. But as soon as they started in Pakistan, their views changed and they take the high road - 'these types of attacks can never be justified'.

The level fo stupidity is so damn high in this!
You must bew the most shameless person on earth to compare the bravery of our soldiers who had no chance against the outnumbering indian tanks invading to the buffoonery of taliban in markets schools and mosques

 

[474474]

I agree there was nefarious conduct on their side also, not least their treatment of biharis and others. However, they were the largest group by far ethnically and linguistically. I don't see why we couldn't have worked out a compromise on many things. There are many countries in the world (Switzerland, India) where more than one language is elevated to national stature.

If we allowed them to bully these few things in the start, they would have never stopped and would start believing themselves as de facto rulers.
I mean today do you see punjabis asking to make punjabi as the national language(imagine parliament in punjabi ;D) just because 'they are the majority'?

 

[474474]

you are just talking bullshit. Pakistan did not have any problems before lal masjid incident and before joining this ******* war of terror which was complete mess for pakistan so stop acting idiot by finding all faults in pakistan and singing love songs for india.

Lal masjid? It was a brave act of sunnah carried out by the best modern day president of Pakistan
Demolition of Masjid al-Dirar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maybe it caused talibunnies to rise, but that was just the boiling point, the pressure was building up in society long before that - dont blame that as the thing that radicalized pakistan overnight

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Thoraa ziyaadaa hogiyaa hai Rafael ! The same 160 million was doing just about fine during the Musharaf era & the one before that.

I also believe some of us are exaggerating things here in self-pity. I understand situation of Pakistan is not good right now but there are many factors behind it. Political instability, wrong foreign policies, incompetent leadership, corruption, law and order situation, lack of justice, inflation,ignorance about religion etc are some of them but i dont think we should lose hope as Iqbal said


millat k sath raabta istawar Rakh
Pewasta rah shajar se umeed e bahaar rakh

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

when (roughly) 160 out of 180 million of its population is illiterate, violent, extremist and morally bankrupt!

to be honest i don't really know how you concluded that 160 out of 180 millions are violent and morally bankrupt?

Is it your assumption?

 

[Developereo]

If we allowed them to bully these few things in the start, they would have never stopped and would start believing themselves as de facto rulers.
I mean today do you see punjabis asking to make punjabi as the national language(imagine parliament in punjabi ;D) just because 'they are the majority'?

Well, it's water under the bridge now but I believe they were not given their due, considering their contribution to the Pakistani society and economy.