A choice no country should have to make

[Developereo]

A war is not an unjustified event, even if one has to fiction up a justification. So when you pointed out that Japan was 'nuked' by US without attributing proper historical context as in what was used to justified a horrific act, you are being deceitful, deliberate or not, to the readers.

Nice try.

My comment was not about war in general, but specifically about the dropping of nukes on civilian centers, causing upwards of 200,000 civilian casualties. In case I wasn't clear enough, let me state it clearly now: there was NO justification for dropping nukes on Hiroshima/Nagasaki regardless of what the Japanese army was doing.

I must say your convoluted justification is a new one for me. The usual claim is that the nukes were justified because they ended the war quickly and preempted far greater casualties otherwise. Few people justify the deliberate massacre of 200,000 civilians as a "just" punishment for Japanese crimes.

The current generation in Japan

I don't want to detail this discussion into Japan. Suffice it to say that I have tremendous respect for the Japanese people and I agree with some of what you say. However, it is not up to me to "forgive" them -- that is strictly between Japan and its victims. Certainly, the Japanese situation is different from the German case, e.g. the Yasukuni Shrine controversy. I don't believe Germany has any national monuments dedicated to Nazis.

Regardless of the above, you are mixing up two concepts. just because someone repents for their sins doesn't mean they have to adulate the country that massacred 200,000 of their civilians. The fact that it is the case in Japan/Germany is because of American media power.

 

[below_freezing]

Instead of typing something and stupidly believing it to the absolute truth, try do a little googling.

1. India is more diverse than China ever be. You are a country with 90% belonging to a single ethnicity and speaking a single language. We have 15 official languages+Hindi+English and 100s of regional dialects and languages..thats the tip of the iceberg. Only EU can rival India in diversity.We have places that have record high temperatures in Thar Desert to Himalays where sub-sero temperatures are the norm. Add to that countries like US, Pakistan also.

2. Have you never heard about the the joint families of South Asia or Arabia.Ask your Pakistani friends for more information.

3. Forest cover is a subjective matter.

4. In India poor get power for one light & fan for free and farmers and small scale industrialists get free or highly subsidized power..not to mention subsidy for fertilizer, LPG,diesel, train fare etc etc.

5. LOL..Pride without exclusion..the superior IQ theory that you people peddle here is a clear contrast to what you say.
Chinese are happy to share our greatness with others.....no thanks , just stick to your side of the border and will will stick to ours.

#3. Forest cover is not subjective; it is an objective measure of the level of commitment a society shows to improving the environment. Societies that do not care about their environment would not care about chopping all the trees down.

Regarding #4. The situation in India is what I had in mind when I noticed that some countries love privatization over others. In India, water, a basic human right and need, is privatized! People are forced to buy water from water trucks. If you cannot pay, you will be denied water! Public infrastructure like low cost basic healthcare, roads, subways, trains, power and education are woeful, while symbols of private consumption like number of cell phones, number of cars and air travel are very high.

India is 35 years behind China in infant mortality, lifespan and literacy, yet is equal to China in things like number of automobiles, and ahead of China in number of cell phones. India has some of the best (as Indians call it) private healthcare in the world with top tier doctors performing open heart surgery equal to the best surgeons in the developed world, yet tens of millions are dying from preventable diseases and starvation.

From what I see, India is the perfect example of raw capitalism where even basic human rights like water are for sale by unregulated capital. That is a very scary thought for me.

 

[gambit]

Nice try.

My comment was not about war in general, but specifically about the dropping of nukes on civilian centers, causing upwards of 200,000 civilian casualties. In case I wasn't clear enough, let me state it clearly now: there was NO justification for dropping nukes on Hiroshima/Nagasaki regardless of what the Japanese army was doing.

I must say your convoluted justification is a new one for me. The usual claim is that the nukes were justified because they ended the war quickly and preempted far greater casualties otherwise. Few people justify the deliberate massacre of 200,000 civilians as a "just" punishment for Japanese crimes.

You will be hard pressed to find support for that argument, especially in Asia. People are generally fair minded. Only the most extreme would be willing to visit the sins of the father upon his children. People in Asia do not see today's Japan as the same as the Imperial Japan of WW II, but neither would they shed any tears for what happened to Japan.

What I said was not any justification but a refutation of your intellectually dishonest and misleading portrayal of Japan and the Japanese regarding the relationship with the US. Are you going to say that the Australia of today is the same as when it was a Britain's penal colony? Are you going to say that today's America with a black President and a government of many ethnicities is the same as when institutionalized slavery was the norm? If not, then today's Japan is a testament of the Japanese people willingness to attempt to atone for their ancestors' sins that ended in WW II. When I see such a contrast in such a short time, I am willing to be generous with my admiration and amity.

I don't want to detail this discussion into Japan. Suffice it to say that I have tremendous respect for the Japanese people and I agree with some of what you say. However, it is not up to me to "forgive" them -- that is strictly between Japan and its victims.

Of course it is. You are of this generation, not of when Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany were in power and threatening everyone. But the reality is that there is nothing to forgive for today's Japan is not the same as Imperial Japan. That does not mean Japan is 'perfect' but only that the people and the country has changed and for the better. So if there is nothing to 'forgive' because the children did not commit the crimes of their ancestors, there is no reason for you to insult Japan the way you did. The sad part is that you do insult Japan just to get to US. Not because you have any real experience with Japan, the Japanese, or any attempt at genuine understanding of history.

Certainly, the Japanese situation is different from the German case, e.g. the Yasukuni Shrine controversy. I don't believe Germany has any national monuments dedicated to Nazis.

Yasukuni Shrine predated WW II. That fact is evident. Every country has some sort of 'shrine' or memorials to those who paid the ultimate price -- their lives -- in the service of the country. It is unfortunate that some of WW II's Imperial Japanese war dead with atrocities attached to their names and spirits are theologically buried there, but their 'graves', no matter how tainted, is in no way indicative that the Japanese celebrated the atrocities committed via the shrine.

Yasukuni Shrine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yasukuni is a shrine to house the actual souls of the dead as kami, or "spirits/souls" as loosely defined in English. It is believed that all negative or evil acts committed are absolved when enshrinement occurs. This activity is strictly a religious matter since the separation of State Shinto and the Japanese government in 1945. The priesthood at the shrine has complete religious autonomy to decide to whom and how enshrinement may occur. They believe that enshrinement is permanent and irreversible.

This is no different than how a criminal can be 'absolved' of his sins upon the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior in Christian beliefs. The Western governments do not dictate to the Christian sects as to how they should view and amend their theologies. So if Germany have no memorials to the Nazis specifically for Nazis and the Nazi brand of fascism, then neither is Yasukuni Shrine such a memorial for Japan.

Regardless of the above, you are mixing up two concepts. just because someone repents for their sins doesn't mean they have to adulate the country that massacred 200,000 of their civilians. The fact that it is the case in Japan/Germany is because of American media power.

Someone? Who in today's Japan committed those sins? It is YOU who are confused and mixed up. You believe in a false association that part of repentance and redemption is the automatic submission to US. This is just another oblique attack on US via our allies, in effect, you are casting aspersions on US by demeaning our friends. This reveals that it bothers you a great deal that another people and culture that is of greater historical stature, age, and achievements than your own may share our interests.

 

[gambit]

#3. Forest cover is not subjective; it is an objective measure of the level of commitment a society shows to improving the environment. Societies that do not care about their environment would not care about chopping all the trees down.

Really...???

Assessment of Economic Loss for Land Deterioration in China

Rapid population and economic growth contribute to environmental degradation and the loss of cultivable land. I make the following estimates regarding land use leading up to the year 2000: 1) 100 Mha will be earmarked for agricultural purposes; 2) 1 Mha will be used in water conservancy projects; 3) 8 to 9.3 Mha of farmland will be converted to forests and pasturage; and, 4) 4 Mha will be utilized for shelter belts. Based on these estimates, agricultural land will likely decline by 20 Mha by the year 2000. If we add the 6 to 8 Mha of land that will likely be reclaimed by the year 2000 to this figure, total agricultural land will most likely decrease by approximately 13 Mha.

China have only 10-12% arable land compared to geographical area that belongs to China. The US have 40-45%. China have been experiencing arable land losses, and that includes non-farming land, for decades from demands of modernization.

 

[below_freezing]

Really...???

Assessment of Economic Loss for Land Deterioration in China

China have only 10-12% arable land compared to geographical area that belongs to China. The US have 40-45%. China have been experiencing arable land losses, and that includes non-farming land, for decades from demands of modernization.

East Asia and Pacific: Increasing Forest Cover | Data

China’s forest cover has grown from nearly 12 percent to more than 18 percent in the past 20 years, through a concerted reforestation program and a country-wide ban on logging. Its goal is to increase forest cover to 23 percent by 2020. For more information about the data:

 

[gambit]

East Asia and Pacific: Increasing Forest Cover | Data

Reforestation is not the same thing as farming land. To have arable land for farming purposes, deforestation must occur. To have reforestation along with modernization, there will some farm land losses.

But here you go...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/jun/23/china-food-shortage

Food shortage fears have prompted the Chinese government to suspend the reforestation of marginal arable land, a senior government official said today .

 

[below_freezing]

Reforestation is not the same thing as farming land. To have arable land for farming purposes, deforestation must occur. To have reforestation along with modernization, there will some farm land losses.

But here you go...

China suspends reforestation project over food shortage fears | Environment | guardian.co.uk

We can farm urban rooftops. Did you know that Hong Kong, which is essentially a giant continuous block of concrete and glass, is actually 40% self sufficient in vegetables?

China already leads in solar water heating, saving terawatts of energy in fossil fuel use. We will soon lead in urban gardening and other sustainable development models.

 

[gambit]

We can farm urban rooftops. Did you know that Hong Kong, which is essentially a giant continuous block of concrete and glass, is actually 40% self sufficient in vegetables?

China already leads in solar water heating, saving terawatts of energy in fossil fuel use. We will soon lead in urban gardening and other sustainable development models.

Not going to help you...

China suspends reforestation project over food shortage fears | Environment | guardian.co.uk

Food shortage fears have prompted the Chinese government to suspend the reforestation of marginal arable land, a senior government official said today .

Lu Xinshe, deputy head of the ministry of land and resources, said the country was struggling to hold the 120 million hectare "red line" considered the minimum land areas needed for food self-sufficiency.

Against the backdrop of rising global food prices, Chinese companies have bought the rights to farm swaths of land in the Philippines, Laos, Russia, and Kazakshstan. They have invested in biofuel crops in Zambia and the Congo. By one estimate there are now one million Chinese farmers in Africa.

So it looks like China will be a colonial power in Africa. Appropriate for a people who look down on blacks.

 

[HongWu]

good question. What are Chinese values? What, in fact, makes a Chinese, Chinese?

1. Respect for diversity. China is home to 56 races across 9.6 million square kilometers of land, ranging from arctic to tropical. Every race has their own written language; the nomadic races that did not, had one invented for them under consultation to better preserve their traditions.

2. Strong commitment to family. Chinese families live as several generations under one roof and the old frequently are invited to live with their children. Even with negative interest rates, families will save to buy a house, rather than do the economically smart thing and rent, because we want a safe and stable environment for our children.

3. Cooperation and harmony with both each other and the environment. China is the only major country in the world with expanding forest coverage. The Chinese public donated 1.5 billion USD within 2 days.

4. Putting the majority first. Chinese prefer to maximize the benefit for everyone, as opposed to extremist individualism. China's immense investment in public infrastructure, vs. the US's immense investment in privatization of transportation, power and even water, shows this. Only in China can public enterprises take losses in the millions of dollars every year to provide the poor with vital services like water, power and transportation. In countries with privatized water, transport and power systems, the poor can be cut off with load shedding any time, something unthinkable in China.

5. Pride without exclusion. Chinese are proud of who we are and where we came from, but that does not translate into the racial hatred that characterizes nationalism in so many other places. Unlike the Japanese and Koreans, who believe in their greatness due to their exclusivity, Chinese are happy to share our greatness with others.

Agree with everything except the last #5. Of course we can share our greatness with others. But that doesn't mean we lose our identity as a nation. For example, I absolutely think we need to clean up illegal immigration from Africa, india and SE Asia -- the exclusivity and purity of our nation is extremely important.

This is the essential characteristic of a nation -- common genetic heritage. That's why family relations (including extended family relations, i.e. clan or tribal relations) is important in Chinese culture as you pointed out.

Enhancing the average quality of people in the Chinese civilization is far more important than simple greater numbers. Quality over quantity. 500 million Chinese people living in China itself (not including those living elsewhere on other territories) enjoying Japanese standards of living would be ideal.

Disagree about Koreans. They have no greatness to speak of except they were the conduit of Chinese civilization from China to Japan. The nomadic tribes in NE Asia had moments of greatness but they enslaved those Choseon people too.

 

[Developereo]

What I said was not any justification but a refutation of your intellectually dishonest and misleading portrayal of Japan and the Japanese regarding the relationship with the US.

Spare me the theatrics. Readers understand perfectly well the context of the atomic bombs and NOTHING justifies their use on Nagasaki/Hiroshima. My statement stands firmly on its own merit that these acts were indefensible. The fact that the Japanese are such staunch American allies despite those atrocities is a triumph of the American soft power.

The rest of your speech about Japan is irrelevant. The issue is not whether, or who, should forgive the Japanese -- that, like I said, is between Japan and her victims -- but the fact that American soft power has won them over. Contrary to your fervent attempts to find imaginary insults, I was actually complimenting America on that achievement.

As for your assertion that the Japanese affinity to America is due to American values, that is an unprovable claim. Sweden and Holland also share the same values, yet the Japanese culture is not particularly attached to them. Their closeness to America is due to American money, American media, and American cultural dominance. To deny such a glaring truth is just disingenuous.

 

[below_freezing]

Agree with everything except the last #5. Of course we can share our greatness with others. But that doesn't mean we lose our identity as a nation. For example, I absolutely think we need to clean up illegal immigration from Africa, india and SE Asia -- the exclusivity and purity of our nation is extremely important.

This is the essential characteristic of a nation -- common genetic heritage. That's why family relations (including extended family relations, i.e. clan or tribal relations) is important in Chinese culture as you pointed out.

Enhancing the average quality of people in the Chinese civilization is far more important than simple greater numbers. Quality over quantity. 500 million Chinese people living in China itself (not including those living elsewhere on other territories) enjoying Japanese standards of living would be ideal.

Disagree about Koreans. They have no greatness to speak of except they were the conduit of Chinese civilization from China to Japan. The nomadic tribes in NE Asia had moments of greatness but they enslaved those Choseon people too.

China's population should not drop below 1 billion. China is big enough for 1.5 billion people, we have lower population density than Germany.

I have a very hard time taking you seriously because I don't know what is troll and what is serious.

 

[below_freezing]

Not going to help you...

China suspends reforestation project over food shortage fears | Environment | guardian.co.uk

So it looks like China will be a colonial power in Africa. Appropriate for a people who look down on blacks.

Chinese do not look down on blacks. There has never been a Chinese KKK or Chinese Neo-Nazis. There were 100,000 Africans in Guangzhou alone in 2008, and increasing at 30% per year. If we look down on them, it is due to their behavior, not because they're black.

“Chocolate City” – Africans seek their dreams in China

Even though they cite problems, it is nothing like what blacks in the US face, with KKK, racial beatings and arbitrary shootings by police.

 

[HongWu]

^ It's more due to the fact that we don't want black people living permanently in China because they're not Chinese. China for Chinese, obviously. We have enough people as it is. Same thing with Filipinos and Ah San in Hong Kong. Why are they there -- mostly illegally? China doesn't have enough people? Send them back.

 

[harpoon]

#3. Forest cover is not subjective; it is an objective measure of the level of commitment a society shows to improving the environment. Societies that do not care about their environment would not care about chopping all the trees down.

Then Indian society is much more committed to improving the environment than Chinese. Higher percentage of Indian land is under forest cover than Chinese.

List of countries by forest area - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regarding #4. The situation in India is what I had in mind when I noticed that some countries love privatization over others. In India, water, a basic human right and need, is privatized! People are forced to buy water from water trucks. If you cannot pay, you will be denied water!

So in China you get piped water for free.

Public infrastructure like low cost basic healthcare, roads, subways, trains, power and education are woeful, while symbols of private consumption like number of cell phones, number of cars and air travel are very high.

Thats just a sweeping statement.Checkout the India progressing thread in Multimedia Section. Yes, I am not going to deny that there are problems but not every Govt hospital,school,highway is bad. It also varies from one Indian state to another. In my state Kerala, there is no powercut while nextdoor neighbour TN has 8 hours powercut per day. On the otherhand TN has better roads, infrastructure and industrial base when compared to Kerala.
The consumption of cell phones , cars etc is an indicator of increasing prosperity in the society.Something the Chinese is also very proud of.

India is 35 years behind China in infant mortality, lifespan and literacy, yet is equal to China in things like number of automobiles, and ahead of China in number of cell phones. India has some of the best (as Indians call it) private healthcare in the world with top tier doctors performing open heart surgery equal to the best surgeons in the developed world, yet tens of millions are dying from preventable diseases and starvation.

India has a universal healthcare system where everyone is treated no matter what his political affiliations or whether he holds an health insurance or not. As a matter of policy in my place no patient is send away from a Govt Medical College.

But the question is why China eventhough being a uni-racial, uni-language, uni-Party country lags decades behind such small countries like Mexico, UAE or Saudi

From what I see, India is the perfect example of raw capitalism where even basic human rights like water are for sale by unregulated capital. That is a very scary thought for me.

Its funny hearing a Chinese talk about ill effects of Capitalism while you are more Capitalist than the West.

 

[skyknight]

TPP？A new tool for Uncle Sam to shear the sheep.

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