99.99% of the world is wajib-ul-qatal for insulting the Prophet

[Mabs]

What must be at the core of every message, whether advocating for a secular State or 'Shariah Law', against Blashphemy laws or for blasphemy laws, against Ahmadi laws or for Ahmadi laws, is a complete and total rejection of violence and use of force.

Here, we are in complete agreement. When we fail to convince someone with logic, we tend to use Latthi,or sometimes we skip the logic and just make use with the Latthi to expedite the process. I think this attitude is drilled into us from the very beginning, when we are snubbed in our homes and told to keep quiet because " tum abi chotay ho". We as a people need to become more accommodating of other people and their views. As long as decency remains at hand, pretty much anything should be open for debate and discussion.

I understand that this was directed at Solomon2, but please allow me to interject and ask you a question I have asked before - if you are in favor of expanding Blasphemy laws to all religions, will you respect Hindus and Hindu deities (Shiva Lingam and everything else) and will you respect Ahmadis, their prophet and their religion, at least in terms of not openly ridiculing them, even if you disagree on a personal level with their faith?

Why will I not respect the Hindus and their deities. As long as tehy are peacefully practicing their religion, why should I or anyone have any problem anyway? Here's my POV: Not just Muslims, but everyone is sensitive about their religions, so why ridicule something which you know will only make millions and millions of people upset. Prohibit everyone from mocking any religion ,and let's all live as the civilized people that we are.

About the Ahmadis, I never have ridiculed them personally or publically. As a matter of fact, I have an Ahmadi neighbor,and we have been living across each other for the past 8 years, and every Ramadan we send each other Iftaaris. My best friends include a: Saudi Muslim turned agnostic, a Lebanese Catholic turned atheist and an Egyptian Muslim. When I meet someone, the last thing on my mind is their religious affiliation. I tend to, or at least try to, know them more on a personal level, rather than religious or cultural.

 

[aks18]

OP and a lot of other members here ... I am speechless ...

If liberal secularists Pakistanis like you had put this much effort in fighting corruption & injustice practiced by our democracy preaching leaders, than these illiterate, extremists Mullah's won't be able to take advantage of suffering of poor & unfortunate people and brainwash them to carry out mass killings on the name of religion .... These things happen where injustice prevails and injustice prevails where leaders are corrupt ..

Extremists exist in every religion ... I personally believe that many of today's maulvis are the furthest thing from Islam and a major cause for all this bad image of Islam being portrayed .... but calling all Mullah's extremists ??? ... Do you even know the place of "mufti" in Islam ??? or could you perhaps define Mullah for me ???

Asia is as much a Pakistani as any other Muslim living in Pakistan and deserves same treatment in every aspect ... It is very possible that she was framed and that the trial was unfair ... How many of poor people in Pakistan really get a fair treatment or fair trial ??? Yes, it does not mean that she should have been just ignored but quote me some other case where our late governer or any other politician have stood up to give justice to some other poor or unfortunate .... Why only the issues which are bound to flame religious tensions ???

What Hussain Qadri did was a murder ... an individual action ..
What our politicians and many Mullahs (as you like to call them) are doing directly and indirectly by their actions and policies is anarchy (Fasad / Chaos) ... So many times in Quran are we asked to fight against those who spread anarchy ...

Stop debating on Islam, Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) or Sahaba (R.A) because clearly none of you here including me have much idea about any of them nor do we practice what they preached .....

Unless you have peanuts in your heads, it is very clear that there are some hidden elements hell bent on destabilizing Pakistan and judging from comments on this forum and everyday news, i must admit that they are doing hell of a good job ....

I am disappointed to see the childish behavior of so many senior members especially some moderators in last few days ....

great post budy i dnt think so there is need of any further debate now ... u just wrote everything which was in my mind

 

[Solomon2]

That's all i can do for now, as I do not hold a position, through which I can influence the masses.

True democrats don't need a position to influence the masses, they step into the battle for political leadership and craft effective positions of their own!

Every country and nation has its own dynamics, characteristics and social sensitivities which need to be taken into consideration before concluding that what might be workable in the US, will also have the same beneficial results in Pakistan, or any country for that matter.

Indeed. Some will sneer and call that "racism", but I deny their implicit (and ignorant) assumption that peoples around the world respond to stimuli the same way or have the same expectations and needs of justice and government.

As I pointed out earlier today, that was FDR's fallacy in trying to degrade DeGaulle from leadership of the French Resistance. Alone of the French military in exile, DeGaulle from the very first seized upon rebuilding the key quality the French had lost: national honor. Only the prospect of regaining national honor could mobilize the French to unite with the Allies to actively fight against the Nazis. So repeatedly when DeGaulle walked into a room higher-ranking French generals felt compelled to defer to him. He motivated men through their shared dreams to surpass the Nazi-imposed nightmare of their lives. This was not a concept the American President appreciated or grasped.

A good example of this are the tales of the American pilots, who were involved in the flood relief operations. They experienced somethings, which if done in the US, would have been considered awkward, to say the least.

Details would be appreciated, please leave them in this thread.

- people should have no role in it except to register their grievances in the court of law.

And serve on juries. Ah, but Pakistan abolished the right to trial by jury ages ago. That's bad, because strict enforcement of the law eliminates any possibility of jury nullification - a trick the Brits used when the laws of the State became too oppressive, refusing to convict people of specious capital crimes. So you see another reason why I am worried about the State becoming too powerful, and the rule of law escaping from the moderation of the people.

 

[Awesome]

OP and a lot of other members here ... I am speechless ...

If liberal secularists Pakistanis like you had put this much effort in fighting corruption & injustice practiced by our democracy preaching leaders, than these illiterate, extremists Mullah's won't be able to take advantage of suffering of poor & unfortunate people and brainwash them to carry out mass killings on the name of religion .... These things happen where injustice prevails and injustice prevails where leaders are corrupt ..

Why are you assuming that these "Islami" people are not corrupt themselves?

Let me give you a very recent example of how directly Blasphemy Laws have aided corrupt people like Zardari.

Back when the Quran burnings were going on in America, Zardari jumped to the opportunity to ban Facebook and Youtube - the two sites which had thousands of posts by people against him. He used Blasphemy argument to protect his own behind.

You all are Zardari collaborators. Imagine that! We ARE opposing corruption.

When you say that you can't be free to say something, even insults, then how can you expect to remain free to say even the right things? Tomorrow you'd be prevented from even defending Islam under the same argument of "too much freedom".

These things happen where the nation has lost its will to be good human beings.

I ask you the same question, why aren't Mullah's killing corrupt people and only killing blasphemers? If they would put enough effort into killing corrupt people Pakistan would become corruption free!

Instead Mullahs order rape in Pakistan, Mullahs order stoning by death, Mullahs order terrorism in Pakistan - The Mullah is a significant problem.

Also I find this absurd. When I go to critique the Mullah he will say "Why don't you complain about the Corrupt people?" When I go to critique the corrupt people they would say "Why don't you complain against the Mullahs?" Aren't they doing the tango together then? Aren't they hand in hand?

We have to fight em all. It's simple, we will fight them, till we can't.

 

[Karachiite]

Mullahs are one of the most corrupt and greedy people. They oppose movies and music but at night they will be watching the same music and songs on tv from their stolen cable.

Why is it that people with beards upto their chests are found smuggling and ordering hits? They look for halal meat shop with their haram money.

Yeah I know line is copied from Khuda ke liye but it's 100% true.

Its a move but this scene shows 100% truth
YouTube - Khuda ke liye,, main part

 

[rohailmalhi]

Mullahs are one of the most corrupt and greedy people. They oppose movies and music but at night they will be watching the same music and songs on tv from their stolen cable.

Why is it that people with beards upto their chests are found smuggling and ordering hits? They look for halal meat shop with their haram money.

Yeah I know line is copied from Khuda ke liye but it's 100% true.

Its a move but this scene shows 100% truth
YouTube - Khuda ke liye,, main part

Does having a beard make u muslim. Abu jahal also had beard .
Crazy comments all over the thread.

Does mullah have the thaka of Islam No i dont think so u have ur mind u have quran , and u can learn from it .Y do u even listen to them .

About blasphemy law yeah they should be reviewed and strict punishment to those should be included how try to implicate sum one innocent using this law.

and one more thing government should set the standard to who can give fatwas coz i see everyone now a days giving fatwas.

 

[Zizou]

Why are you assuming that these "Islami" people are not corrupt themselves?

You haven't define "Mullah" yet and now you come up with another term, "Islami" ... Read my full post, i never assumed any such thing ...

Let me give you a very recent example of how directly Blasphemy Laws have aided corrupt people like Zardari.

Back when the Quran burnings were going on in America, Zardari jumped to the opportunity to ban Facebook and Youtube - the two sites which had thousands of posts by people against him. He used Blasphemy argument to protect his own behind.

It wasn't Zardari ... A Pakistani court ordered the authorities to block facebook after the petition was filed by a group of lawyers ...

You all are Zardari collaborators. Imagine that! We ARE opposing corruption.

There is nothing to imagine here ... Everything is crystal clear from your comments and NOOO, you are not fighting corruption ...

When you say that you can't be free to say something, even insults, then how can you expect to remain free to say even the right things? Tomorrow you'd be prevented from even defending Islam under the same argument of "too much freedom".

i seriously don't understand what you are talking here ... but let me just say that freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences ..... Try exercising your freedom of speech in USA or any other democratic country by racially abusing someone or praising hitler ... In similar sense try speaking against government or regime in communist countries ... Tell me one place where you can say whatever you want without any consequences ... When everyone can have their laws in their own countries, why can't we have laws to stop lunatics from insulting our religion .... Right example would be when an old lady stops Hazrat Umar (R.A) in the street and questions him, Why do you have 2 blankets on you when everyone else just got 1 ??? That is how the freedom of speech should be exercised ... by questioning injustice and corruption ...

These things happen where the nation has lost its will to be good human beings.

True .. nations are defined by their people ... we all are culprit here ...

I ask you the same question, why aren't Mullah's killing corrupt people and only killing blasphemers? If they would put enough effort into killing corrupt people Pakistan would become corruption free!

Instead Mullahs order rape in Pakistan, Mullahs order stoning by death, Mullahs order terrorism in Pakistan - The Mullah is a significant problem.

You are confused ... On one hand you argue against any violence, on other hand you are asking for the killings of corrupt leaders ... I can bet that if some bearded man kills a corrupt leader on the grounds of corruption, you will react in a same way as you are now and blame all Mullahs .... from your posts you seem to be calling every Maulvi as Mullah which is absurd ...

Also I find this absurd. When I go to critique the Mullah he will say "Why don't you complain about the Corrupt people?" When I go to critique the corrupt people they would say "Why don't you complain against the Mullahs?" Aren't they doing the tango together then? Aren't they hand in hand?

We have to fight em all. It's simple, we will fight them, till we can't.

There are corrupt people in politics, religion hence every profession ... That is what i was saying in my first post that fight against all those who spread anarchy whether they are religious leaders or politicians or anyone else ....

 

[Omar1984]

Mullahs are one of the most corrupt and greedy people. They oppose movies and music but at night they will be watching the same music and songs on tv from their stolen cable.

Why is it that people with beards upto their chests are found smuggling and ordering hits? They look for halal meat shop with their haram money.

Yeah I know line is copied from Khuda ke liye but it's 100% true.

Its a move but this scene shows 100% truth
YouTube - Khuda ke liye,, main part

Please dont post scenes from Khudah Kay Liye. They didnt even know what they were talking about in that fictional lollywood movie.

Notice most of Mohajir Urdu speaking members here in defence.pk are anti-islamic republic and pro-secularist.

Why did these people migrate to Islamic Republic of Pakistan in the first place? They should've stayed in their so called "secular" india.

 

[DaRk WaVe]

Please dont post scenes from Khudah Kay Liye. They didnt even know what they were talking about in that fictional lollywood movie.

Notice most of Mohajir Urdu speaking members here in defence.pk are anti-islamic republic and pro-secularist.

Why did these people migrate to Islamic Republic of Pakistan in the first place? They should've stayed in their so called "secular" india.

Pakistan was supposed to be a nation for everyone not only for the delusional mullahs & their stupid followers because after all most of the good Muslims of the time were against the very creation of Pakistan

 

[ajay]

Jinnah never wanted this for Pakistan he was a secular minded person

 

[VCheng]

Jinnah never wanted this for Pakistan he was a secular minded person

As much as I respect Jinnah, I wish people pay more attention that he died over half a century ago. What he was, or what he wanted, is long gone.

Pakistan as a nation needs to look AHEAD in order to secure its future. We can analyze endlessly how we go here, but I think that it is now high time that we started driving this dangerous mountian road looking through the windscreen to see what is coming up ahead and not just by looking through the rear view mirror to see where we have been.

" All the woulda coulda shouldas laying in the sun
talking about the things
they woulda coulda shoulda done
ran away and hid
from one little DID! "

(Dr. Seuss)

 

[ajay]

As much as I respect Jinnah, I wish people pay more attention that he died over half a century ago. What he was, or what he wanted, is long gone.

Pakistan as a nation needs to look AHEAD in order to secure its future. We can analyze endlessly how we go here, but I think that it is now high time that we started driving this dangerous mountian road looking through the windscreen to see what is coming up ahead and not just by looking through the rear view mirror to see where we have been.

" All the woulda coulda shouldas laying in the sun
talking about the things
they woulda coulda shoulda done
ran away and hid
from one little DID! "

(Dr. Seuss)

What kind of Pakistan do you want Sir for the future? one where minorties are victimised or the voices of liberals shut forever and innocent mothers like bibi condemed to death


Pakistan is 97% muslim only 3% minorities yet still they have to endure such acts why? is this what Jinnah wanted for the desh

 

[VCheng]

What kind of Pakistan do you want Sir for the future? one where minorties are victimised or the voices of liberals shut forever and innocent mothers like bibi condemed to death


Pakistan is 97% muslim only 3% minorities yet still they have to endure such acts why? is this what Jinnah wanted for the desh

My personal ideas and beliefs about what Pakistan should be in the future are not important, since my future is elsewhere by conscious choice.

The people of Pakistan need to figure this out for themselves. We on the outside can but try to help where we can, that is all.

 

[pak-marine]

=Omar1984;1398247]
Notice most of Mohajir Urdu speaking members here in defence.pk are anti-islamic republic and pro-secularist.


Why did these people migrate to Islamic Republic of Pakistan in the first place? They should've stayed in their so called "secular" india.

Omar ... you are one what we term as ""BADBODAR nasalpurast" , i am not going to start bashing your ethnicity just cuz you insulted mine . I will rather suggest you to start using you tube you will not only find like minded crowd but also receive good bashing to your racist remarks and accusations which you really deserve.

These Mohajirs migrated because they are the main reason behind the creation of Pakistan .... they sacrificed both life and property for Pakistan unlike most who claim to be the sons of the soil and rathr woke up to know that they now have a new country ............... !

 

[ajay]

My personal ideas and beliefs about what Pakistan should be in the future are not important, since my future is elsewhere by conscious choice.

The people of Pakistan need to figure this out for themselves. We on the outside can but try to help where we can, that is all.

I agree with the notion of people power but if people become scared or killed if they speak out it is very hard to help them as they would say everything is fine and dandy but the reality far from it due to fear which leads to control.