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90 MMRCA deal and probable winner

90 MMRCA deal and probable winner

  • EF

    Votes: 10 38.5%
  • SU35

    Votes: 16 61.5%

  • Total voters
    26

Optimos Prime IA

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90 MMRCA deal and probable winner.

It's no secret that India canceled multi billion dollars 126 MMRCA deal by ordering 36 rafale directly from France . So the race for rest of the 90 MMRCA heated up. Reason being more or less 20 billion$ up for grab. Fight is again intensified from all sides via diplomatic channels , print media , flaming articles about speculations etc . But my question is which one should be selected and which one is good for our Indian Airforce keeping our potential threat in mind which are might sukois with China and their J10B.

Probable contenders are : Rafale , Gripin NG , Euro fighter , mig 35 , F18 but surprise contender could be su35 as reported by some Russian sources.Since we already tested all these fighters in detail there won't be any further delays for testing in Indian conditions.

Speculative : Why new MMRCA will favour either EF typoon or Su35S . Both have their pros and cons .

Euro Fighter's (EF) case : During the previous MMRCA deal two fighters were finalised .EF and rafale . For some weird reason Rafale was brought back into the race and won tender as lowest bidder among these two . But we all know what happened next as the price quoted by rafale saw cost escalation in actual expenditure and lots of problem with ToT which is the reason for scrapping. The second lowest bidder EF for long pushing for more vibrant ToT and flexible pricing, also offered faster delivery too. PM Modi's visit to Germany have strengthen the hope for EF .

Interesting fact that the new tender for 90 MMRCA comes at a time when Indian airforce Su30MKI participating in an exercise against EF .Surprised many. This is the coolest and closest opportunity for India to valuate EF capabilities against Sukoi 30s. It's future rivals if selected.

Su35S case : India operated Russian fighters for many decades. Latest version are the Mighty sukoi MKIs which is considered the best among the world.MKIs are one of a kind fighter in its family .Upgraded to Indian Airforce' s high standard and requirements. New MMRCA would open up doors for Su35s in 90 fighter jet competition . Since MKI already produced at home in India under ToT it makes sense for both the countries.India is looking to upgrade MKI to super sukois standard.So ordering current variant will delay our upgrade programme as another 90 have to be enhanced. Instead India could buy Su35 under same format of MKI .That is with upgraded avionics and other new features. Su35S - known as UFO fighters by western media .The aircraft is sleek , neat , mean ,stealthy 4++ generation definitely the best.Its reduced RCS and updated with new weapon systems. Only drawbacks are its passive radar as Indian Airforce want AESA radar which will improve capabilities of an aircraft in many folds. India also concerned about putting all eggs in one basket (Russia). But it dont matter once you have well established manufacturing base with the country. Because India already operates large number of Russian jets and Future Generations Fighter Aircraft 5th gen is also planned.So Putting all baskets won't be an issue here. Russians are more trustable than the EU or the Americans. That's said Sukois do have problems with availability which is just above 50% . Efforts been made to improve . It fuel guzzling engines which are more prone to dust particles in runways (among others) are also planned for an upgrade with new more economical engine optimisation .

Recently Russian ambassador hinted about secret testing taking/taken place in India for the last 2 years. Russian sources are the only one who accurately predicted the scraping of old MMRCA deal while things were going on track. The report said Indian Airforce is already in talks with Russia for Improved variant of Su35 called Su35S with More air to ground capabilities with renewed EW suit for Multi role and low level flying , AESA radar , Improved Engines , more stealthy etc among few . Interesting point being made is that these UPGRADES actually more or less same planned for the Super sukois upgrades .IAF planned to upgrade 272 sukois into 4++ stealth fighter in fue course of time.

EF vs su35 :

Since we heard it from horse's mouth Gripin is out of our wish list , Rafale stuck with price and ToT negotiation loop which we don't want to get into. Mig35 will be a huge risk with many shortfall while development , Americans jets always comes with strings attached . So my predictions are for EF or Su35S .

Which one will you chose ? For that we need to understand our future threat or even present threat we will fight . J10B J11D su27 and Su30Mkk . Chinese are already registered their trademark in the making of Su30 family as if they invented it. They understood every aspect of this fighter .So edge we posses is very thin against Chinese airforce. Same goes for china too .Indian sukois are more superior to theirs .Whole point for MMRCA is to have offensive capacity against Chinese . This is were EF comes into play . EF is the most advanced and most stealthy 4th gen fighter as of today.These jets are more stealthy than Rafale .And Rafale are much more stealthily than sukois. With 90 new EF IAF will posses amazing and powerful capabilities in whole of Asia.More than that we will have new tactics to take on Chinese flankers. BVR is one of the most important aspect of Destroying the enemy and own survival .Shoot and scoot is achieved only with Spead , Advanced Avionics , Stealth and weapon system which comes in handy with EF.

Rafale is also another favourite choice of our IAF as as we already saw what Mirages are capable of doing things more efficiently than other jets . 50 upgraded mirages + 36 Rafale will be enough for precision bombing and taking out enemy strategic assets while securing skies . While 36 being negotiated is common sense to have provision for additional 18 or 1 squadron. So 50 Mirage 2000I and 50 Rafale will be a dream team. And these jets are costly because of their amazing availability. So I think 50:50 is a fair numbers for any airforce. So we should get deal for the EF keeping future war tactics in mind. BVR and Stealth is the next level of Air combat with 5th generation fighters


With both sukois and EF our Air to Air capabilities will give tremendous advantages against Chinese airforce .

I vote for EF only if we get better deal as promised by UK and Germany. Full ToT or more than enough To. If If not If not we If not we can easily get Su35S and more MKI to overcome shortage.
 
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@Optimos Prime IA

The NEW tender is for picking up a Private company to PARTNER Dassault
for making 90 or more planes in INDIA

Whether it will be L & T ; TATA or Reliance
 
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There is no plans for such tender. Only media speculations. Parrikar has said that G2G is better than tender.

G2G or Tender We are looking to fill in 90 jets .Our IAF already said Even if it's not rafale we need 90 MMRCA additional to Rafale (36) .

@Optimos Prime IA

The NEW tender is for picking up a Private company to PARTNER Dassault
for making 90 or more planes in INDIA

Whether it will be L & T ; TATA or Reliance

First First see will this 36 deal can be inked . Latest news suggest problem persists over 50% offset and cost escalation ... It high time we go for EF .Even with 36 rafale .
 
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Considering the logistical nightmare both rafale and ef will cause it is extremely unwise decision to get 90 ef as suggested by op even if the price is right.

Su-35s fitted with the pakfa aesa and other electronics will be superior to ef anyway with many components common with pakfa and super sukhoi upgrade.

Its simple.............get upgraded su-35 and then ink pakfa deal asap.
 
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Considering the logistical nightmare both rafale and ef will cause it is extremely unwise decision to get 90 ef as suggested by op even if the price is right.

Su-35s fitted with the pakfa aesa and other electronics will be superior to ef anyway with many components common with pakfa and super sukhoi upgrade.

Its simple.............get upgraded su-35 and then ink pakfa deal asap.

SU 35 is simply RULED OUT

If we dont get Rafale ; which is HIGHLY unilkely ; then we will add more SU 30
and upgrade them

Upgrading them is much simpler and cost effective

Since PAK FA is a certainity ; then Having SU 35 in the interim makes no sense
 
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Considering the logistical nightmare both rafale and ef will cause it is extremely unwise decision to get 90 ef as suggested by op even if the price is right.

Su-35s fitted with the pakfa aesa and other electronics will be superior to ef anyway with many components common with pakfa and super sukhoi upgrade.

Its simple.............get upgraded su-35 and then ink pakfa deal asap.

Main reason we went for rafale than ordering additional sukoi is to have different capabilities . You also ask they why we are ready to pay huge chuck of foreign reserves and our hard earned money for new fighter platform when we already have in house infrastructure for MKI . Our adversary is not Pakistan with their f16 and Jf17 but equally competitive sukois if china .

Prevention is better than cure . EF has better RCS and so enhanced advantages over Su35 in Beyond visual range tactics. EF with IAF will for credible deterrent against sukois and future J20 . Not to forget EF will get mature further in days to come .

On ur logistic nightmare : I seriously get irritated to this line . Those who talk about nightmare in operating different platform should know IAF don't operate only 1 or 2 fighters .We already operates Mirage , Jags , mig 27 , 21 , 29 , sukois in very large numbers.In future we tend to add Rafale , FGFA, AMCA, Tejas to name a few. In future we might opt for F35B for Island operation or for second wave of attacks once our runways are been targeted (Note : Don't jump the gun on F35. I just gave an example on how our planning will evolve! !! ) . So do you think our Airforce personals are fools that they don't think like you ? Come on get a break .
 
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Here the issue is the deal for 36 Rafales going to materialize. What I have read over the last few months there are some issues regarding the deal that PM Modi announced in Paris. The French are not willing to invest in India the 50% cost of the deal as promised in the 126 MMRCA deal.

However there is a possibility that the French agree to reinvest if India considers to buy 90-100 Rafale aircraft. The production in India could either be through Govt. owned or Private companies.

SU-35 is not going to bought as IAF considers the SU-30 Equal to the Su-35's. More Su-30 can also be ruled out because the production rate requires to be increased.

* Su30 = Su 30 MKI
 
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SU 35 is simply RULED OUT

If we dont get Rafale ; which is HIGHLY unilkely ; then we will add more SU 30
and upgrade them

Upgrading them is much simpler and cost effective

Since PAK FA is a certainity ; then Having SU 35 in the interim makes no sense
Buying su30 will make no sense too . Why buy new aircraft which will have to be upgraded for the future battle ? When we can get new jets with futuristic specs?
You should also consider the cost escalation for the super upgrades too . We already ordered 272 MKI which will have to be upgraded .And I don't think we will complete upgrading entire fleet in less than a decade or 2 .
 
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SU 35 is simply RULED OUT

If we dont get Rafale ; which is HIGHLY unilkely ; then we will add more SU 30
and upgrade them

Upgrading them is much simpler and cost effective

Since PAK FA is a certainity ; then Having SU 35 in the interim makes no sense

It does.......u cannot make/add sensor fusion in mki even after modernization.U cannot negate the monstrous rcs of mki either.

Adding more mki's is stupid,even super sukhoi's.Better get more rafales or ef then rather than more mki's.
 
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Why not griphen NGs. Potent cheap fighter when compared to others, perfect to fill gap, and then go for F35b or other 2nd 5th Gen platform.
 
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The PAK FA will be ready in 5 years, why not just wait and buy that as well
 
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The PAK FA will be ready in 5 years, why not just wait and buy that as well

Thats for a different need,,we need good 4 th gen fighters to shore up the squadron falling due to retirement of old birds.

Why not griphen NGs. Potent cheap fighter when compared to others, perfect to fill gap, and then go for F35b or other 2nd 5th Gen platform.

Nope,that will be done by tejas mk2 starting 2022(yeah,liable to be extended indefinitely).The need is for a fighter which is better than what chinese will field in the future and gripen is nowhere in the level of su-35/rafale/ef.
 
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Rafale is a worm hole . Nothing will come out of it . Finger crossed for 36+18 if at all it happens . Our IAF not satisfied with Su35 true but we are interested interested interested in full stealth variant of the jet with internal bay . Since our enemy will posses more or less same capabilities it better to have completely different platform . Security of nation comes before all including logistics nightmare as some members pointed . We will have sufficient facilities to maintain of we choose either of the three .

@ACE OF THE AIR
 
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It does.......u cannot make/add sensor fusion in mki even after modernization.U cannot negate the monstrous rcs of mki either.

Adding more mki's is stupid,even super sukhoi's.Better get more rafales or ef then rather than more mki's.
You are partially correct...

The issue IAF faces is that they are going to find replacement for the GAG's as well and also have to replace the mig 21's... SU30-MKI can not replace the Gag's but Rafale can. Mig 21's are a priority but they can be replaced by single engine aircraft like the Tejas or JAS 39 Gripen.

Now IAF has upgraded the Gag's so they are good to continue for another 10-15 years or more if required. Same is the case with Mirage 2000 so adding a few more Mirage 2000 would give the required strength. How ever if GOI is going to sign the deal of Rafale then this is going to be difficult to justify the expensive upgrade to the GAGs.

Mig-29 also need to be upgraded or replaced so it is a nice choice to select an aircraft that has a naval variant. Rafale is the best option but its price is too high.
 
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Why not griphen NGs. Potent cheap fighter when compared to others, perfect to fill gap, and then go for F35b or other 2nd 5th Gen platform.
Gripin NG is due for 2018 or 19 ... This is the only aircraft openly criticised by IAF even recently. It's potent but not potent enough to be added into our inventory. It's totally out of the race . Waste of time if they still lobbying for . May be Swiss thought this government is like congress party whom can be blackmailed or bought !!!
 
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