89% of Pakistanis believe education can stop religious extremism: Poll

[muse]

Sir Islam is from ALLAH and its laws are from ALLAH and he has given best laws and we need to teach those laws to Islam and in Islam you taken life is also allowed in many conditions Sir Islam is for peace those who want peace but those who attack we are told to finish them Sir[/QUOTE

Sir, thank you for yet another illuminating post - when will these third class muslims of Pakistan realize that Islam is about "laws", divine laws, that men make and propagate, if only god did not need the help of men, but these weak muslims of Pakistan cannot admit their faults, sir, isn't it that Allah will not make things better for them unless they make the effort to make things better for themselves.

Sir, I agree with you completely that those who attack should be finished off.

 

[Last Hope]

I agree, only education (including that in religious matters) can stop the extremism. Peopled are lured into believing what you want then to believe if you have a beard, and if they are uneducated even in religion. With education and knowledge of religion, you will know that most of the 'Islam' being followed in Pakistan is fabricated.

ISPR has been working on this to raise awareness on the Western front by learning them the tactics used by extremists and attempting to make people immune to them. This can be seen in their drama serials.

 

[Redbull]

Time for another long post:



I too believe that Islam should not be a compulsory subject but an electable course in schools, colleges and universities... however the facts are that Pakistani parents are overwhelmingly for it. I tried to find the survey that backs it but failed but the majority of Pakistani parents when asked whether Islam should be taught as a subject and should be compulsory in schools majority of respondents said yes.

My point is that I have realized throughout time that the Zarvan's really do make the majority in our country-they are not outright TTP supporters but are sympathizers. I may be wrong but that is debatable. My point is secularism which is what I want cannot be the general rule unless there is a shift in thinking. Education can do that.

What I am getting at is teaching Mu'tazili Islam is a brilliant way to turn the tide against the extremists and can be the first step to secularization. We can treat this as an opportunity instead of a problem. We can teach a secular understanding of Islam, a tolerant Islam of Ibn Rushd and Harraj. We do that and we win their minds ensuring another Zarvan could not be produced. We preach hate against Hindus and others we produce Taliban militants.

This could be a wonderful opportunity if the education system is over-hauled and can be used to secularize society-after all an entire school of thought is based on secularism (Mutazila)... teach them about the concepts of Ibn Rushd, the philosophers and historians, the astronomers and scientists we produced. Ibn Khaldun, Youssuf were all secular-minded. We teach them that we win the war.

When terrorists shot Malala and killed clerics opposed to them we should have learned this right away but we did not. It is time to turn education into our advantage and secularize society- Islamic studies can be a useful place to do this. Replace the mullah there with a liberal mutazili or sufi scholar. We are on the path to secularism and optional Islamic studies.

What do you think @Hyperion, @muse, @Redbull and other secularists?

Agreed, this may be able to turn the tide against the more extreme versions of Islam, but I must add, perhaps shamelessly, that showing the other side of the coin is also important, showing that the Muhammed bin Qasims, and Ghaznis did not fall from heaven and making a distinction between what are, first and foremost, good practices- with, as you have said, the rational of mutazilah Islam- that right is right, no matter what the interpretation of their religion might be, that democracy,evolution and secularism is good, and then, if they so choose to, they can try and justify these positions within their religious framework. But I must stress again of the correct history part, and persuading the youth that there is absolutely no shame in adopting Western thought and ideas.

 

[Redbull]

I was just wondering about one thing, though I agree with 89% of the Pakistanis that education can stop extremism , I agree with @muse not only education matters but the content of the education also matters. However we all know some of the top AQ leaders are well educated.
Taking about 7/7 London, one of the sucide bomber was actually a teacher in british school. He was a educated person, a teacher, what made him do that? Any answer from the senior members?
@Aeronaut @Zarvan @A1Kaid

One of the arguments I heard for why the educated adopt Islamism, is that their fetish for seeing things in a Muslim/non-Muslim light leads them to the inevitable conclusion that their(the Muslim) achievement in this world is an absolute Zero. Looking around them, they see that Cars, Aeroplanes is not their achievement, not an achievement by humanity, but a "kaafir" achievement.

And thus, they begin looking for past glories in Andalusia, in Baghdad and, knowing the reluctancy of any government(and more importantly the Muslims themselves) in establishing any such "caliphate", they begin "sorting thier own house" ie doing Jihad against Muslims first.

It is called 'Qutibism', which is the ideology that Al-Qaeda follows.

 

[Solomon2]

only education (including that in religious matters) can stop the extremism.

Really? What is going to protect the teachers and students of anti-extremism from violence by extremists? And who in Pakistan has both the means and will to do that? The weak are unable and the strong seek to exploit the situation for their personal advantage, yes? And when the weak become strong, they become no different from other strong folk, yes?

Pakistani value system seems to be all about success first for one's self, then family, then clan or sect; duty is a job one takes bribes to fulfill or get out of. Like the medieval newly-Christianized barbarian kings who rationalized their conquest of more-peaceful fellow Christians, claiming, "God wills it!" since they were successful.

So Pakistan needs not just a strong Army and the opinion of the majority but the ideology to raise civism above extremism and will to employ its strength and put up with deadly casualties to carry it out.

 

[muse]

Blackbeagle, note how this weak, third class Pakistani muslim, has learned to admit faults, damn shame, but I'm with you:




The rot within


Harris Khalique
Wednesday, February 13, 2013
The writer is a poet and author based in Islamabad.



No more an external threat. Nor an easily manageable one which the liberal-hypocrite segments within the power establishment may continue to be complacent about. As you sow, so shall you reap. We thought we would use religion to control our people, discourage them from asking for their economic rights as they would believe that their worldly fate is determined by the heavens; build a unitary nation state where smaller provinces could be reined in and their resources could be controlled, and fight our overt and covert wars on the eastern and the western fronts by branding them holy. This strategy has fallen flat on its face. Whatever we could do externally is known to all and sundry. Internally, we are fast fragmenting as a people – more in terms of religion than in ethnic or linguistic terms.

A family friend who lives in Karachi told me that many of the women in her neighbourhood and her colleagues in the college she teaches at refused to come to her annual milad this year – an event to celebrate the birth of the Prophet of Islam (pbuh). They told her that a proper dars (religious sermon) is better than singing exaggerated praises for the Prophet that actually sound like bid’a and borders on shirk. Meaning thereby, the Greatness and Oneness of God is challenged if you hold a milad. A few weeks ago, a former colleague had called me from Gujranwala. He said that for about 30 years his mother had distributed some special dish as neyaz – among her mostly non-Shia neighbours – during Muharram. For the first time no Sunni family in the neighbourhood accepted that food. His mother, feeling insulted and dejected, wept for hours.

A sitting MNA from the southern part of Punjab who comes from a Sunni family also related an incident. During last year’s Muharram, he was clad in a black kurta shalwar and taking his morning walk in a park in his native town. A group of young boys between the ages of 12 and 16 who were also wearing white caps and looked like students from a local madressah started stalking him. Then they began to chant in a chorus, Shia kafir Shia kafir (Shias are infidels and not Muslim). First he thought of engaging with them but as their chants became louder and louder, he felt scared and rushed out of the park.

In the same part of the country, when a couple of years ago I was invited to speak at a seminar for youth on the rights of religious minorities in Pakistan, a vocal student who seemed very sympathetic to my views, told me after the seminar that, although Shias are non-Muslims, they must not be killed.

A young Christian Pakistani friend whose family has contributed to this country’s progress and development in more than one way once narrated an interesting story from his high school days. It was August 14 and Independence Day was being celebrated in the school as well. A group of boys came up to him and asked with curiosity and earnestness, “Do you also celebrate 14th August? Will you and your family participate in our Independence Day celebrations?” Another interesting incident was narrated by a friend from Chakwal who has served in one of the wings of our armed forces as a senior officer.

Himself a progressive and enlightened Muslim, he got a complaint from one of the Christian staff that a Muslim colleague had suddenly stopped eating with him and insisted on him having a separate set of crockery and cutlery. My friend summoned that Muslim staff member and inquired if he would ask a superior non-Muslim officer to do the same? He, of course, knew very well that this Muslim staff member worked under a non-Muslim Pakistani officer, washed his dishes and polished his boots. There is a class element that gets introduced when we treat poor Christians and Hindus with contempt in Pakistan. In affluent households, where utensils for Christian servants are even further separated from those of Muslim servants, an ordinary semi-literate European or an American would come and eat in Grandma’s traditional china and porcelain.

Coming back to growing sectarianism and faith-based extremism, the more you see things closely the more you realise that while some got the conditions ripe and found national and international support to resort to intense forms of violence and spread massive terror, it is not a particular school of thought among Muslims or a particular religio-political party that can be held solely responsible for what we see happening in our homes, communities and society today in terms of attitudes. Everyone has played a part. While Salafis and Deobandis, with all their inherent differences, preach an orthodox and puritanical form of religion and also take to violence, the Tableeghi Jamaat continues to create legitimacy for such an exclusive form of faith in its own apparently benign way. To me it is not benign at all.


After Salafis and Deobandis were castigated by a part of the state institutions and were seen as fighting the interests of the country, there was so much fanfare about being an inclusive Sunni Barelvi or being a Sufi. But you can see that those calling themselves Ahle Sunnat, Barelvi and followers of Sufism created havoc around the controversial blasphemy law. They inspired the killing of people and turned to violence in order to regain the political space they had lost to other Sunni sub-sects who were patronised by the Pakistani establishment for many years. A real threat in some parts of Pakistan in the near future is violence between Sunni sub-sects.

While people are being killed indiscriminately across the country, Shias undoubtedly remain the most persecuted Muslim sect in Pakistan today. Sometimes I do feel like asking the Shia clerics why they didn’t see this coming when they sided with Sunni clerics in running ferocious campaigns against Ahmadis to get them ex-communicated from the fraternity of Islam. To declare someone non-Muslim by an act of parliament will continue to haunt our legislative history. ZA Bhutto should not have succumbed to the pressure of the clerics. Even if the majority of Muslims thought that Ahmadis were not Muslims, parliament must not have been the place to get the law enacted.

The policies pursued and strategies applied by the state and its dominant institutions within and outside the country created an intolerant society. Each of our homes has become prejudiced as a result. Each Pakistani cannot put up with anything different, anything that may differ from our own belief system and anything that forces us to think. Facts are to be rejected if they challenge our preconceived thoughts and ideals.

Nations perish if they do not realise their mistakes in time. We are losing time. There can be no confusion anymore. It is not just the madressahs that need reform. The curricula of public and private schools have to change as well. The media messages have to change. Hate speech and promoting intolerance and exclusion in the name of faith has to be stopped. Ignorance, myopia and intolerance have to be replaced by knowledge, enlightenment and inclusion. Don’t call it secular if it makes your blood boil. But make it a plural society that respects diversity. The government and institutions of the establishment have to drastically change their policies. They have to refrain from being apologetic to medieval clerics and stop conceding more and more social space. We all have to speak up in our circles of influence – homes, offices, schools and places of worship.

 

[rockstarIN]

This all started becouse of America's double standards,,, al qaeda was never involved in 9/11 america just built that crap up,, afghans just wanted to fight for their land just like they did when the soviets came, but this time instead of being called the freedom fighters people started calling them terrorists!!

Whats the use of, even education where people only believe crap theories and refuse to use the logic?

 

[notsuperstitious]

Education fine, but which textbooks???

 

[BLACKEAGLE]

Blackbeagle, note how this weak, third class Pakistani muslim, has learned to admit faults, damn shame, but I'm with you:




The rot within


Harris Khalique
Wednesday, February 13, 2013
The writer is a poet and author based in Islamabad.



No more an external threat. Nor an easily manageable one which the liberal-hypocrite segments within the power establishment may continue to be complacent about. As you sow, so shall you reap. We thought we would use religion to control our people, discourage them from asking for their economic rights as they would believe that their worldly fate is determined by the heavens; build a unitary nation state where smaller provinces could be reined in and their resources could be controlled, and fight our overt and covert wars on the eastern and the western fronts by branding them holy. This strategy has fallen flat on its face. Whatever we could do externally is known to all and sundry. Internally, we are fast fragmenting as a people – more in terms of religion than in ethnic or linguistic terms.

A family friend who lives in Karachi told me that many of the women in her neighbourhood and her colleagues in the college she teaches at refused to come to her annual milad this year – an event to celebrate the birth of the Prophet of Islam (pbuh). They told her that a proper dars (religious sermon) is better than singing exaggerated praises for the Prophet that actually sound like bid’a and borders on shirk. Meaning thereby, the Greatness and Oneness of God is challenged if you hold a milad. A few weeks ago, a former colleague had called me from Gujranwala. He said that for about 30 years his mother had distributed some special dish as neyaz – among her mostly non-Shia neighbours – during Muharram. For the first time no Sunni family in the neighbourhood accepted that food. His mother, feeling insulted and dejected, wept for hours.

A sitting MNA from the southern part of Punjab who comes from a Sunni family also related an incident. During last year’s Muharram, he was clad in a black kurta shalwar and taking his morning walk in a park in his native town. A group of young boys between the ages of 12 and 16 who were also wearing white caps and looked like students from a local madressah started stalking him. Then they began to chant in a chorus, Shia kafir Shia kafir (Shias are infidels and not Muslim). First he thought of engaging with them but as their chants became louder and louder, he felt scared and rushed out of the park.

In the same part of the country, when a couple of years ago I was invited to speak at a seminar for youth on the rights of religious minorities in Pakistan, a vocal student who seemed very sympathetic to my views, told me after the seminar that, although Shias are non-Muslims, they must not be killed.

A young Christian Pakistani friend whose family has contributed to this country’s progress and development in more than one way once narrated an interesting story from his high school days. It was August 14 and Independence Day was being celebrated in the school as well. A group of boys came up to him and asked with curiosity and earnestness, “Do you also celebrate 14th August? Will you and your family participate in our Independence Day celebrations?” Another interesting incident was narrated by a friend from Chakwal who has served in one of the wings of our armed forces as a senior officer.

Himself a progressive and enlightened Muslim, he got a complaint from one of the Christian staff that a Muslim colleague had suddenly stopped eating with him and insisted on him having a separate set of crockery and cutlery. My friend summoned that Muslim staff member and inquired if he would ask a superior non-Muslim officer to do the same? He, of course, knew very well that this Muslim staff member worked under a non-Muslim Pakistani officer, washed his dishes and polished his boots. There is a class element that gets introduced when we treat poor Christians and Hindus with contempt in Pakistan. In affluent households, where utensils for Christian servants are even further separated from those of Muslim servants, an ordinary semi-literate European or an American would come and eat in Grandma’s traditional china and porcelain.

Coming back to growing sectarianism and faith-based extremism, the more you see things closely the more you realise that while some got the conditions ripe and found national and international support to resort to intense forms of violence and spread massive terror, it is not a particular school of thought among Muslims or a particular religio-political party that can be held solely responsible for what we see happening in our homes, communities and society today in terms of attitudes. Everyone has played a part. While Salafis and Deobandis, with all their inherent differences, preach an orthodox and puritanical form of religion and also take to violence, the Tableeghi Jamaat continues to create legitimacy for such an exclusive form of faith in its own apparently benign way. To me it is not benign at all.


After Salafis and Deobandis were castigated by a part of the state institutions and were seen as fighting the interests of the country, there was so much fanfare about being an inclusive Sunni Barelvi or being a Sufi. But you can see that those calling themselves Ahle Sunnat, Barelvi and followers of Sufism created havoc around the controversial blasphemy law. They inspired the killing of people and turned to violence in order to regain the political space they had lost to other Sunni sub-sects who were patronised by the Pakistani establishment for many years. A real threat in some parts of Pakistan in the near future is violence between Sunni sub-sects.

While people are being killed indiscriminately across the country, Shias undoubtedly remain the most persecuted Muslim sect in Pakistan today. Sometimes I do feel like asking the Shia clerics why they didn’t see this coming when they sided with Sunni clerics in running ferocious campaigns against Ahmadis to get them ex-communicated from the fraternity of Islam. To declare someone non-Muslim by an act of parliament will continue to haunt our legislative history. ZA Bhutto should not have succumbed to the pressure of the clerics. Even if the majority of Muslims thought that Ahmadis were not Muslims, parliament must not have been the place to get the law enacted.

The policies pursued and strategies applied by the state and its dominant institutions within and outside the country created an intolerant society. Each of our homes has become prejudiced as a result. Each Pakistani cannot put up with anything different, anything that may differ from our own belief system and anything that forces us to think. Facts are to be rejected if they challenge our preconceived thoughts and ideals.

Nations perish if they do not realise their mistakes in time. We are losing time. There can be no confusion anymore. It is not just the madressahs that need reform. The curricula of public and private schools have to change as well. The media messages have to change. Hate speech and promoting intolerance and exclusion in the name of faith has to be stopped. Ignorance, myopia and intolerance have to be replaced by knowledge, enlightenment and inclusion. Don’t call it secular if it makes your blood boil. But make it a plural society that respects diversity. The government and institutions of the establishment have to drastically change their policies. They have to refrain from being apologetic to medieval clerics and stop conceding more and more social space. We all have to speak up in our circles of influence – homes, offices, schools and places of worship.

Good for you, Islam advocates peace, prosperity, education, progression, love, respect and everything profitable, but some people made it the opposite, frankly speaking, I noticed Pakistanis either being so tight or lose regarding Islam, which is not right at all. It's sad that people link terrorism with Islam due to terrorists who hijacked it.

Definitely, education is the only solution of Pakistani problems.

 

[Wright]

My 2 cents: You become like those whom you aspire to be like. Popular countries in Pakistan are Arab dictatorships, Iran, North Korea, and China. Whereas Indians look up to match the US, Japan, Korea, Germany in developmental term, Pakistanis want to be socially and politically like Arabs, and slowly the society is moving away from its moderate past towards Arab inspired extremism.

 

[BATMAN]

A country where trees are holy or threads are holy or shrines are holy can be any thing but Islamic.

 

[haviZsultan]

Beautiful post Redbull and worth a double thank.

Agreed, this may be able to turn the tide against the more extreme versions of Islam, but I must add, perhaps shamelessly, that showing the other side of the coin is also important, showing that the Muhammed bin Qasims, and Ghaznis did not fall from heaven and making a distinction between what are, first and foremost, good practices- with, as you have said, the rational of mutazilah Islam- that right is right, no matter what the interpretation of their religion might be, that democracy,evolution and secularism is good, and then, if they so choose to, they can try and justify these positions within their religious framework. But I must stress again of the correct history part, and persuading the youth that there is absolutely no shame in adopting Western thought and ideas.

Perfect post. See what we have done with history is a travesty of justice. Raja Dahir is also a hero of Sindh/Pakistan as is anyone else. But he is ignored in our history because of Mohammed bin Qasim just because he happened to be a Hindu. I ask what about the history before the 7th century? Was Indus valley, Bactria, Kushan empire, Ashoka's Mauryan empire not part of the history of this great land? We look at it we will discover that we have Islamicized even history. The history taught to us is biased and filled with hate to Hindus. We hate them for what they are.

Also do note there is-true nothing wrong with adopting beneficial western ideas and thoughts. Iqbal even said this in a conference that we have to take their concepts and add them to advance and he was a supporter of secularism and ijtehad. He praised Ataturk's revolution very heavily. But secularism is not a western ideal. They just adopted it from us. The father of modern day secularism is the moor, Averoes also known as Ibn Rushd (research him on google or type Averoes and secularism). So we are just reclaiming the Islam of our ancestors (which is secularism) rather than going to Wahabism. The Zarvan's don't need to fear but they do not understand our true culture of peace and tolerance.

4 thanks for ur post. Nearly none for my long one on education which I believe was my best in a month. I think no one wants to listen to me sometimes, it gets even worse when I talk of foreign policy. Deep thanks for taking the time.

 

[BLACKEAGLE]

Beautiful post Redbull and worth a double thank.



Perfect post. See what we have done with history is a travesty of justice. Raja Dahir is also a hero of Sindh/Pakistan as is anyone else. But he is ignored in our history because of Mohammed bin Qasim just because he happened to be a Hindu. I ask what about the history before the 7th century? Was Indus valley, Bactria, Kushan empire, Ashoka's Mauryan empire not part of the history of this great land? We look at it we will discover that we have Islamicized even history. The history taught to us is biased and filled with hate to Hindus. We hate them for what they are.

Also do note there is-true nothing wrong with adopting beneficial western ideas and thoughts. Iqbal even said this in a conference that we have to take their concepts and add them to advance and he was a supporter of secularism and ijtehad. He praised Ataturk's revolution very heavily. But secularism is not a western ideal. They just adopted it from us. The father of modern day secularism is the moor, Averoes also known as Ibn Rushd (research him on google or type Averoes and secularism). So we are just reclaiming the Islam of our ancestors (which is secularism) rather than going to Wahabism. The Zarvan's don't need to fear but they do not understand our true culture of peace and tolerance.

4 thanks for ur post. Nearly none for my long one on education which I believe was my best in a month. I think no one wants to listen to me sometimes, it gets even worse when I talk of foreign policy. Deep thanks for taking the time.

If you weren't Muslims, you would have been Indians enjoying your Indian religions, culture and prosperity in India...

 

[muse]

If you weren't Muslims, you would have been Indians enjoying your Indian religions, culture and prosperity in India...

What about Muslims in India? too much cultural imperialism comes with this Wahabi Islam - we can all do wth it

 

[somebozo]

If you weren't Muslims, you would have been Indians enjoying your Indian religions, culture and prosperity in India...

Each year, thousands of tourist flock to Petra to tour the Roman era ruins!
Do I need to say more?

Now why dont you say the same about Jordanians? food for thought!


Show me any pre-historic archaeology and architectural site which was built by Arabs and is recognized by UNESCO?

What about Muslims in India? too much cultural imperialism comes with this Wahabi Islam - we can all do wth it

Islam

Sunni = Arab Imperialism
Shia = Persian Imperialism.
Christianity = European Imperialism.
Hinduism = Indian imperialism!