4- Type 054 Frigates from China, Pakistan's next Goal

[Areesh]

what door you want to show..
if you have a source claiming that PN will be ordering Type -054A then show it........
more than the cost of type 054 a will be double that of F22p and now the PN thinking of buying new subs it will far too difficult

I think you need to read the whole discussion and the posts above this post of yours. Please read what AM, Penguin and other guys are talking about.

 

[Penguin]

I think you are just over analysing things

a) We have already paid for Frigates 4 ones that we got back in 2005
so these are already paid for

b) After that we achieved Transfer of technology to build F22P locally
at Pakistani ports

c) The Type 054 is on our radars becasue our Navy heads have
stated they are interested in heavier ships in China , and that is
is the Type 054 - they would also be open to Upgraded F22P
class ships (Another 4 , with more Air defence)

Either way we view it we will get another 4 frigates from China and 6 from US

Let's analyze this:

ad a) Exactly which four frigates did PN get in 2005? The only major ships added in this decade are the 3 chinese newbuilt F22P and the ex-USN McInerney.

ad b) There is a fourth F22P currently building already in Pakistan.

ad c) So, where is the money coming from to pay for 4 additional domestically built modified F22P plus 4 Type 054(A) to be built by/in China, in addition to any acquisition of addditional OHP/FFG7 type ships and possibly Milgem?

Come on, get real.

 

[Penguin]

Now Lets talk abt Type-54, its on discussion board....n we hav budget of abt 500 Million $ for new frigates.

Well, consider this:

"Frigates In October 2007, Morocco confirmed that it had ordered a FREMM multirole frigate from French warship-builder DCNS, becoming the first export customer for the new 5,800-tonne vessel that France and Italy are building under a joint programme. The contract was finalised in April 2008. The vessel is laid down in the first half of 2010 with launch scheduled for 2011 and delivery and commissioning following in 2013. The contract value reflects the projected unit cost of a FREMM frigate at around EUR382 million, although the export package include ancillary equipment and other items is reported to be worth a total of EUR470 million (USD740 million). "
Morocco (Morocco) - Jane's Naval Construction and Retrofit Markets

Let's assume a Type 054A costs half what a FREMM costs. That amounts to a unit cost of EUR191 million and EUR235 million ($370 million) for a complete support, services and training package.

Your $500 million would buy about 1 and 1/3 ship ...

And there are other quotes for the Moroccan FREMM out that as high as EUR 500 million (about $710 million)!
Morocco to Buy a French FREMM Frigate

Which doesn't sound unreasonable, considering:

"On February 6, 2008, Morocco signed a USD$1.2 billion contract with Schelde Naval Shipbuilding for two [2025 ton] SIGMA 9813 and one [2335 ton] SIGMA 10145 which are modified versions of the existing SIGMA Class design."
Sigma class corvette - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That amounts to about $400 per ship and these are considerably smaller and more lightly armed ships than FREMM.

Now some estimates for Type 054A go as low as $238 million (1.58 billion yuan renminbi).
Type 054A frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even if this were the case, your $500 million would still buy just 2 and a bit (and no other frigates or corvettes whatsoever)

 

[Penguin]

which would be more suitable for PN 054 or 054A?

this might be off topic: I have seen that Indian Naval combatants have anti-submarine rocket launchers mostly RBU-6000, what is the allied equivalent of this, and are they really effective given a range of just 6 km, why would submarine come so close?

Traditionally, Russians employed large heavyweight torpedos (533mm) for ASW whereas Western navies used Lightweight ASW torpedoes (324mm). The RBU is a close-in backup to those heavies and usefull in shallow waters or - with a different rocket - as hard-kill anti-torpedo weapon (UDAV). Western navies have tended to employ a Nixie torpedo decoy instead. In contrast, PLAN uses lightweights for ASW in combination with bow mounted ASW rockets.

Most torpedoes used by subs don't have long range and are used close in. Below some maximum ranges.

Russia (max range at high speed)
SAET-60: 14,200 yards (13,000 m) / 42 knots
SAET-60M: about 16,400 yards (15,000 m) / 40 knots
53-65: 18,000 metres (20,000 yd)
53-65K: 19,000 metres (21,000 yd)
53-65M: 22,000 metres (24,000 yd)
Test-71:
16,400 yards (15,000 m) / 40 knots
27,300 yards (25,000 m) /35 knots
Russia / USSR Post-World War II Torpedoes

UK
Spearfish:
1981 version: About 23,000 yards (21,000 m) / 60+ knots
1994 version: Range unknown / 80+ knots
Tigerfish:
23,000 yards (21,000 m) / 35 knots
about 30,000 yards (27,400 m) / 24 knots
British Torpedoes after World War II

USA:
Mk48
38 km at 55 kt
50 km at 40 kt
USA Torpedoes since World War II

Germany
DM2
A-3: 22,000 yards (20,000 m) / 35 knots (lower speed setting for increased range)
A-4: 55,000 yards (~50,000 m) max range / 50 knots max speed (different speed/range settings)
SST-3
24,000 yards (22,000 m) / 35 knots
56,000 yards (51,200 m) / 23 knots
SST-4
12,000 yards (11,000 m) / 35 knots
22,000 yards (20,000 m) / 28 knots
40,000 yards (37,000 m) / 23 knots
SUT
13,100 yards (12,000 m) / 35 knots
30,600 yards (28,000 m) / 23 knots
German Torpedoes Post World War II

At long ranges, ship tend to use helicopters with lightweight ASW torpedoes anyway.

 

[IamINDIA]

hmm.......i have to say the type 054 looks similar to the shivalik class frigates........i might be because they both are stealth ,but i dont kno ......

 

[sunakaffck]

currently Type 054 Frigate is the most advanced frigate in chinese navy and costs over 1.5 billion us dollers means 4 x 1.5=6 billion. sorry dude not yet

 

[IamINDIA]

currently Type 054 Frigate is the most advanced frigate in chinese navy and costs over 1.5 billion us dollers means 4 x 1.5=6 billion. sorry dude not yet

lol they cost 1.5bil yuan not dollars.........which is very low for a stealth frigate

 

[ANG]

Hi, the only way Pakistan can get these ships is via a long term soft loan (meaning low deferred interest) from China. No other country will provide Pakistan with this type of payment arrangement.

Pakistan is in no shape to cough up $2B+ for ships and subs on its own, that is the sad truth. The country is pleading with the IMF for loans to pay its upcoming debt interest servicing, therefore such a large expenditure is not possible on its own. Take care.

 

[Penguin]

lol they cost 1.5bil yuan not dollars.........which is very low for a stealth frigate

$238 million (1.58 billion yuan renminbi).

Still, on a $500 million budget fro frigates that means you can get only 2. Alternatively, a 4-ship class would set you back $952 million.

 

[unicorn148]

$238 million (1.58 billion yuan renminbi).

Still, on a $500 million budget fro frigates that means you can get only 2. Alternatively, a 4-ship class would set you back $952 million.

yes but the whole package along with missiles and all other will make it approx to 1.5 billion $ or more..... for the four ships.....

 

[truthseeker2010]

$500 mil, is it per year? if yes then the purchase might be possible if you distribute the cost over 4-5 years.
But if is a total procurement budget of PN then it might not because there are others projects also in the pipeline like subs, milgem...

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well since 2005 , we did recieve at least 20 billion dollars in aid , so I am sure that some of that will be used for proper funding of navy (please remember some of it is for forces)

Also lets not forget that we will also get transit fee for gas for the gas pipeline from two pipelines (iran-pakistan gas pipeline) and (US sponsored Turkamanistan - Pakistan gas line)

Not to mention that we also have a positive surplus now and then , yes in 2010 we took a massive hit due to floods but still our naval orders were placed before 2010 in 2009 or 2007 I think so these have already been placed


I think we already paid for the 4 more more F22P with upgrading to
F23P designations, and TyPE 054 will also arrive in block of 4 the question is will it be 2014 or 2016

I would not be suprised if in 2011 I learn we are getting 4 completed ships from China just like that - I mean china's production capacity is just un matched

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Deccan Herald: Latest News, Nation, World, Business, Technology, Karnataka News & Headlines

Pak to deepen cooperation with Chinese Navy, buy bigger ships
Beijing, Jul 23 - 2010 (PTI):

Pakistan plans to deepen military cooperation with China as it seeks to buy bigger naval ships with more firepower in addition to several frigates it has already ordered from its ''all weather'' ally.


Pakistan hopes to buy bigger ships with more firepower from China, such as 4,000 ton class frigates, Pakistan Naval Chief Admiral Noman Bashir said today.

He said Pakistan Navy is very satisfied with the performance of the F-22P frigate it bought from China. Two of the four F-22P frigates it ordered are already in service in Pakistan Navy, with the third one scheduled to be commissioned on September 15 this year.

It is also expected that all the four ships will be in service by 2013.

"We are very happy with the performance, and some technology is as good as in Western countries," Bashir was quoted as saying by the state run China Daily today.
Pakistan has proposed to develop strategic maritime cooperation with China in both military and commercial sects, such as in fishery, economic development zones, and cargo, he said.

"The friendship between China and Pakistan is greater than the Himalayas and deeper than the Ocean. We already made progress in air force and other areas, now we should further and expand the cooperation in Navy, a broadly-based relation," he said
He also said Pakistan’s strategic geographical location in the Arabian Sea and its long coastline could contribute to the missions of Chinese navy, particularly in the context of energy need from the Persian Gulf.

Pakistan also has rich experiences in countering illegal activities at sea in order to maintain maritime security, four ships participated in anti-piracy operations, and there has been no act of maritime terrorism in its region in the recent past.

"We can provide facilities, ports, logistics, maintenance among other things (to Chinese navy),” said a Pakistan Navy official.

Pakistan hopes to buy more ships from China, UK and France according to its development plan, he said.


....

k More Ships from China = 4 x F22P->F23P and the 4x 4,000 Ton frigate = Type 084B

k More ships from England = 3 x Type 42 Batch destroyers from UK

k More ships from US = 6 OHP class friagtes (on table)

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Well since 2005 , we did recieve at least 20 billion dollars in aid , so I am sure that some of that will be used for proper funding of navy (please remember some of it is for forces)

Also lets not forget that we will also get transit fee for gas for the gas pipeline from two pipelines (iran-pakistan gas pipeline) and (US sponsored Turkamanistan - Pakistan gas line)

Not to mention that we also have a positive surplus now and then , yes in 2010 we took a massive hit due to floods but still our naval orders were placed before 2010 in 2009 or 2007 I think so these have already been placed


I think we already paid for the 4 more more F22P with upgrading to
F23P designations, and TyPE 054 will also arrive in block of 4 the question is will it be 2014 or 2016

I would not be suprised if in 2011 I learn we are getting 4 completed ships from China just like that - I mean china's production capacity is just un matched

Pal where are you coming up with this payment schedule or it is just AzadKhiyali???

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Pal where are you coming up with this payment schedule or it is just AzadKhiyali???

IMF gave us what 7 billion , and US gave us 3 billion then beefed up the aid by another 5 billion or so for civilian usage , that is close to 15 billion

We also make 5 -8billion in remittance yearly - so its not impossible for us to purchase what we need -

Plus we have a economy which generates $$ income yearly in billions

We have enough funds to purchase

3 destroyers, 5 Type 053B and also get the 6 OHP frigates