27th Feb | Celebrating Swift Retort Day || Unveiling the JF-17 thunder Block 3 of PAF || PTV World .

[PanzerKiel]

But what about morale? Wouldnt taking out the entire leadership rob any military of its will to fight?

Shouldnt happen in case of a well trained military. And then, its almost impossible to take out THE ENTIRE LEADERSHIP....i mean you wont find them ALL at one place....thats a pure failure then.

 

[White privilege]

@PanzerKiel why wasn't the permission given to shoot all 9 jets??It would have been total capitulation of IAF morale, and since restraint did not bring us anymore assured peace as we had to close our airspace after the airliner top hat attempt by IAF and keep up tempo of ops equivalent to 65, does PAF think now it would have been better off shooting those targets when it could??

 

[Ek620]

I am glad that atleast there is some sort of clips that Paf is releasing for the public

 

[Engima Chaudhry]

Like if i start rattling off....it will surprise us all.

As i mentioned before, there were mistakes made by both PAF and IAF, but being part of them, i take them as normal. During battle, shit happens, we all get used to it.

I will not point out PAF's mistakes for obvious reasons. May be some other time.

Take the case of Abhinandan. He took off, full AB on. His No 2 and 3 also took off after him. As per rules, he should have waited for his No 2 and 3 to catch up, before heading westwards. However, in sheer exhuberance, he kept going on AB, low level flight, taking the advantage of the valleys. The first time he was spotted was when he started a zoom up attack, he popped up suddenly from amongst the mountains, wanting to gain height rapidly and looking around targets for R-77 maybe.

Abhi then entered the box which was being jammed by XYZ asset. At the same moment probably, the four flights of foursomes F-16s (total 16 F-16s), were seen by IAF controllers. Thats when the IAF lady flight controller is heard continuosly, yelling "flow cold". Now, interestingly, since the No 2 and 3 were way behind Abhi, and since they had not entered the kill / jam box, they received the message and went cold as ordered.

Abhi did not receive the message initially. Once he detected the PAF fighters ahead (the nearest F-16 was 9 NM away, he was not the one who took the shot though), he executed standard evasive maneuvers whereby he took 90 deg turn away from the PAF fighters in order to increase distance etc. However, the moment he started turning away from PAF aircraft, the call from the lady controller got through (Abhhi must have gotten out of jam box by now). Now the call was interpreted wrongly by Abhi. If he would have continued on his original course, he would have been far away. However, he took the call as it was like received just now. He reversed his turn and turned INTO the PAF fighters, whereby he took the hit.

PS. If by luck, Abhi's No 2 and 3 would have been with him at the moment....it would have been 16 F-16s (64 AIM-120s and 32 AIM9s overall) against 3 Mig21s....instead of 1, 3 Mig21s would have been surely downed that day. IAF was lucky in this aspect as well.


@The Eagle This is just one story out of many, including of the M-2000 CAP, the Su-30s, the bugging out of IAF AWACs, launch of SAR heli, SPYDER hit...each of these is a separate story...was it mere coincidence that the target which PAF choose to bomb was having indian army chief and possibly Corps commander as well? If PAF would have decided to bomb the target itself instead of dropping them away, wont the killing of indian army chief triggered full-out war? Can it be termed as an intelligence failure on our part? Or was it planned like this, to rattle the indian army top lot in order to bring them to their senses??

It was overall an interesting day. But so is the profession of arms otherwise. Interesting for some, deadly for many,

Abhinonedone, popping up 9 nm from a viper.
That raises an eyebrow.
Target fixation on our part?
Awacs at 30 or 40 thousand feet should have easily detected abhi winding in and out of valleys of peer punjab.
I am sure a de brief should have been in order for awacs crew.

Exactly.


For shooting Abhi, no permission was required since the status was already "weapons free" for all.

Gambler wasnt cautioned for engaging without permission. He was cautioned for for another initiative which he took during the sortie. It could have been hazardous for the whole package.


If this call is received by a pilot, then its free for all. Pilots does what he want to. But since controller has better SA (situational awareness), he has to give permission keeping several parameters in mind.

Can you , if possible , explain why 4 teams of 4 vipers were there ?
Combat spread of hi lo pairs wasn't excercised ?
What i understand is a cluster of 4 aircraft is a big target presentation.
And secondly , did abhinandone try to crank the amraam? Or it was in the No escape zone and couldn't initiate any defensive action.

 

[PanzerKiel]

@PanzerKiel why wasn't the permission given to shoot all 9 jets??It would have been total capitulation of IAF morale, and since restraint did not bring us anymore assured peace as we had to close our airspace after the airliner top hat attempt by IAF and keep up tempo of ops equivalent to 65, does PAF think now it would have been better off shooting those targets when it could??

There is a general misunderstanding prevalent here.... Like all 9 jets popped up together, in that case they would have been shot down of course.

PAF went in with a limited aim, to bomb, to return their favor in tit for tat.... It was weapon hold status till then....

With the Su30 hit, it was weapons free... Now whoever came up was shot down, and then MIG21 was shot down as well. As I have already highlighted, If No 2 and 3 of Abhinandan would have been with him, they would have been shot down as well. L lucky for IAF, if they had tried anything else after Su30 shot down, it would have been a massacre.

Abhinonedone, popping up 9 nm from a viper.
That raises an eyebrow.
Target fixation on our part?
Awacs at 30 or 40 thousand feet should have easily detected abhi winding in and out of valleys of peer punjab.
I am sure a de brief should have been in order for awacs crew.


Can you , if possible , explain why 4 teams of 4 vipers were there ?
Combat spread of hi lo pairs wasn't excercised ?
What i understand is a cluster of 4 aircraft is a big target presentation.
And secondly , did abhinandone try to crank the amraam? Or it was in the No escape zone and couldn't initiate any defensive action.

Effects of mountain valleys is immense, difficult for every AWACS to find someone...

That foursome flight of four F16 9 nm away had a different role to play, let's not discuss that.

Abhi had no idea, nothing to do till he was hit....

 

[Signalian]

Effects of mountain valleys is immense, difficult for every AWACS to find someone...

Radar coverage through inter-linking AWACS, ground, fighter sensors (radars + IRST) could be a possible solution.

 

[SQ8]

Radar coverage through inter-linking AWACS, ground, fighter sensors (radars + IRST) could be a possible solution.

Already exists to a large extent but radars cannot penetrate rock and earth a km across

 

[Signalian]

radars cannot penetrate rock and earth a km across

Penetrating natural obstacles isn't required. That's why multiple sensors, techniques and technologies should do.

 

[SQ8]

Penetrating natural obstacles isn't required. That's why multiple sensors, techniques and technologies should do.

When no sensor can see through you can have a 1000 of them and it wont matter.
However, abhinandan was picked up intermittently as he was getting airborne so it was known he was coming.

 

[Signalian]

When no sensor can see through you can have a 1000 of them and it wont matter.
However, abhinandan was picked up intermittently as he was getting airborne so it was known he was coming.

Usually black areas are provided coverage by putting sensors at different locations for coverage .In war time, there is usually a planned coverage. AWACS should be in air most of the time in any case.

 

[AeroEngineer]

Usually black areas are provided coverage by putting sensors at different locations for coverage .In war time, there is usually a planned coverage. AWACS should be in air most of the time in any case.

For most part those valleys he was supposedly taking advantage of are in IIOK so no opportunity to put sensors there. With radars, ground clutter for any look down mode is a real issue. You tend to have algorithmic filters to exclude spurious false echoes but their efficacy is dependent on many factors. Even if you have sensors placed at the exit points of such valleys, the target will most likely only become visible on PPI once it emerges from the valley and the reaction time then only depends on its mission profile. In this case with a zoom climb profile in air interception mode it would be negligible reaction time. The bottom line appears to be that PAF had screens in place and they did their job whether he was aiming for an AEW asset or other fighters. We can all arm chair speculate but I am sure with network centricity, PAF has developed good air battlefield management sense.

 

[Signalian]

For most part those valleys he was supposedly taking advantage of are in IIOK so no opportunity to put sensors there. With radars, ground clutter for any look down mode is a real issue. You tend to have algorithmic filters to exclude spurious false echoes but their efficacy is dependent on many factors. Even if you have sensors placed at the exit points of such valleys, the target will most likely only become visible on PPI once it emerges from the valley and the reaction time then only depends on its mission profile. In this case with a zoom climb profile in air interception mode it would be negligible reaction time. The bottom line appears to be that PAF had screens in place and they did their job whether he was aiming for an AEW asset or other fighters. We can all arm chair speculate but I am sure with network centricity, PAF has developed good air battlefield management sense.

Just have to put Survey Detachment in the field to start with. Survey Det can bring in all data using maps and other tools. Rest comes later based on their report.

 

[Madni Bappa]

Check out the Call Sign. View attachment 820850

Jua khelna haram hai bhai mere

 

[PanzerKiel]

Jua khelna haram hai bhai mere

Jua khelna haram hai, aur apne career se jua khelna nuksaan deh bhi hai....

 

[Madni Bappa]

Jua khelna haram hai, aur apne career se jua khelna nuksaan deh bhi hai....

I'm scared now
Are you ISI or something?