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27 Feb 19: PAF shot down two Indian aircrafts inside Pakistani airspace: DG ISPR

Them hindko swear words. Aaaaahhhh sooo good.

So how did locals know he was even there???

Were the villagers shooting or Army????


Wese naarey takbeer Allahu Akbar me dehshat bahut hai.

Villagers used their kite chasing training from childhood. His parachute was visible miles away..

Army jawan was firing his G-3 to keep the ground under control.
 
He surrendered like a goat.

The villagers were screaming HANDS UP from 1/4 of a mile away and he raised up his hand while he was p1ssing in his pants.
watch from 0:20 sec
:lol:
wowww...haven't seen this vid. again locals pointing the 2nd one up on hills.
 
wowww...haven't seen this vid. again locals pointing the 2nd one up on hills.

I would not rely on locals... they even asked him to take out his grenades lol
it could well be that mig-21 ejection seat may have a parachute or another Mig-21 was also shot down and that aircraft was pulverized before hitting the ground. Or it could be a Su-30 with only one pilot managed to eject and the other one died in the wreckage?
 
There is a concept called 'Kill Validity". Even in flight S/L Hassan didn't know he has shot down a flanker for sure. Or the missile was a hit in other words. He was not certain. But, the air defense controllers confirmed it via the basic indicators such as range, speed, disappearance of the blip etc.
The idea of a 'valid' kill is essentially an assumption based upon some reasoning and evidences. A 'confirmed' kill is when there are eyewitnesses of the event, something that often occurred back in WW II when air combat were always within visual range. A 'valid' kill is when we declared that based upon A, B, and C, there is a greater than %X probability that the target did not survive. A 'valid' kill can be updated to 'confirmed' if later there are forensic proof that the target did not survive. These proofs can be something like debris or ops logs that said the pilot did not return.

Milliseconds before impact AMRAAM has a behavior of emitting 'cylindrical slugs'. Right before impact, these cylindrical slugs are disbanded and hit the source emitting the radar signals. You will have noticed holes in the aircrafts (similar to those shown in the movie behind enemy lines when F-18 is shot down by a radar guided SAM)

The ACMI and FDR data clearly show that slugs have disbanded and hit the intended target which was emitting the radar waves. Chaff is simply not powerful enough to misguide an AMRAAM to disband its slugs.
Chaff can mislead a missile, even an AMRAAM or any claimed to be 'the best' missile out there. There are several related issues here.

When a missile is classified as 'fire and forget', it does not mean launch and leave. On the whole, we, meaning the entire military aviation community, did not have a good record of such a missile, even when we did designed and deployed such a missile. The 54 Phoenix was not only 'fire and forget' but actually 'launch and leave'. The Phoenix was not an 'integrated' weapon system precisely because of the 'launch and leave' design. Once launched, the pilot is free to leave the missile to its own devices. The missile carried its own active radar, discriminate its own target, select for home, and boresight on a target. The Phoenix's concept made the missile large, heavy, and time consuming for maintenance, especially for the electronics, which was not upgradable and
rapidly getting older as miniaturization progresses. So when the F-14 retired, the Phoenix system had to be retired as well.

So where does the phrase 'fire and forget' comes in?

Experience showed us that the longer the ranges the greater the odds of a failure to kill. The longer ranges requires the missile to have as much data as possible in order to do what the Phoenix was designed to do: active radar, discrimination, selection, home, and boresight. The more radar activities, the greater the odds of the target being aware of the missile threat, especially when the radar operation changes to boresight mode which produces intense and unique signal characteristics, which the target would confirm to itself that there is a missile threat. But if we reduce the range on when to launch the missile, we risks getting involved into a turning fight which despite the romanticism of WW II, no pilot want to get into such a fight in the first place.

The compromise is the somewhat arbitrary designation of 'mid range' which for the AIM-120 started from 50 km and now to 150 km which approaches the 190 km of the Phoenix. So much for 'mid range'.

To increase the odds of a kill, or given the range involved, at least a 'valid' kill, we have to sort of 'silence' the missile's own radar operations to the last possible moments. To do this, the AMRAAM's radar does not 'go active' until certain algorithmic solutions are satisfied, and these are secrets. Suffice to say for public discussion, that 'go active' point is generally the mid point between the launch location and the target's location.

For example, if the distance between launch and target is 100 km, the AMRAAM's radar will go active when it crosses the 40-50 km point. Less if the launch aircraft decides to continuously guide the missile instead of the missile using its own radar.

When the AMRAAM's radar is active is when the missile becomes a 'fire and forget' weapon because it is calculated that the target do not have sufficient time and distance to formulate any countermeasure, even if his radar warning receiver (RWR) alerted him to the missile threat.

This goes back to the statement that declared chaff cannot mislead the AMRAAM. Chaff can mislead the AMRAAM depends on when the missile was launched, when the parent aircraft severs its guidance, and when the AMRAAM's radar go active. The longer this distance, the greater the odds of success for chaff. If a pilot launched an AMRAAM at max or near max operational range and immediately abandons it, chaff WILL mislead this AMRAAM.

This is why modern air combat is no less mentally challenging than when pilots fought with guns at several hundred meters apart. The pilot must know his aircraft and weapons limits in order to create as ideal as possible the environment for the missile to succeed.

AMRAAM does not detonate if it doesn't hit the intended target.
The AMRAAM have a proximity fusing system that detonates the warhead without the missile impacting the target. Proximity fusing increases the odds of a kill.
 
Thanks Gambit. Pretty interesting.

The idea of a 'valid' kill is essentially an assumption based upon some reasoning and evidences. A 'confirmed' kill is when there are eyewitnesses of the event, something that often occurred back in WW II when air combat were always within visual range. A 'valid' kill is when we declared that based upon A, B, and C, there is a greater than %X probability that the target did not survive. A 'valid' kill can be updated to 'confirmed' if later there are forensic proof that the target did not survive. These proofs can be something like debris or ops logs that said the pilot did not return.

Chaff can mislead a missile, even an AMRAAM or any claimed to be 'the best' missile out there. There are several related issues here.

When a missile is classified as 'fire and forget', it does not mean launch and leave. On the whole, we, meaning the entire military aviation community, did not have a good record of such a missile, even when we did designed and deployed such a missile. The 54 Phoenix was not only 'fire and forget' but actually 'launch and leave'. The Phoenix was not an 'integrated' weapon system precisely because of the 'launch and leave' design. Once launched, the pilot is free to leave the missile to its own devices. The missile carried its own active radar, discriminate its own target, select for home, and boresight on a target. The Phoenix's concept made the missile large, heavy, and time consuming for maintenance, especially for the electronics, which was not upgradable and
rapidly getting older as miniaturization progresses. So when the F-14 retired, the Phoenix system had to be retired as well.

So where does the phrase 'fire and forget' comes in?

Experience showed us that the longer the ranges the greater the odds of a failure to kill. The longer ranges requires the missile to have as much data as possible in order to do what the Phoenix was designed to do: active radar, discrimination, selection, home, and boresight. The more radar activities, the greater the odds of the target being aware of the missile threat, especially when the radar operation changes to boresight mode which produces intense and unique signal characteristics, which the target would confirm to itself that there is a missile threat. But if we reduce the range on when to launch the missile, we risks getting involved into a turning fight which despite the romanticism of WW II, no pilot want to get into such a fight in the first place.

The compromise is the somewhat arbitrary designation of 'mid range' which for the AIM-120 started from 50 km and now to 150 km which approaches the 190 km of the Phoenix. So much for 'mid range'.

To increase the odds of a kill, or given the range involved, at least a 'valid' kill, we have to sort of 'silence' the missile's own radar operations to the last possible moments. To do this, the AMRAAM's radar does not 'go active' until certain algorithmic solutions are satisfied, and these are secrets. Suffice to say for public discussion, that 'go active' point is generally the mid point between the launch location and the target's location.

For example, if the distance between launch and target is 100 km, the AMRAAM's radar will go active when it crosses the 40-50 km point. Less if the launch aircraft decides to continuously guide the missile instead of the missile using its own radar.

When the AMRAAM's radar is active is when the missile becomes a 'fire and forget' weapon because it is calculated that the target do not have sufficient time and distance to formulate any countermeasure, even if his radar warning receiver (RWR) alerted him to the missile threat.

This goes back to the statement that declared chaff cannot mislead the AMRAAM. Chaff can mislead the AMRAAM depends on when the missile was launched, when the parent aircraft severs its guidance, and when the AMRAAM's radar go active. The longer this distance, the greater the odds of success for chaff. If a pilot launched an AMRAAM at max or near max operational range and immediately abandons it, chaff WILL mislead this AMRAAM.

This is why modern air combat is no less mentally challenging than when pilots fought with guns at several hundred meters apart. The pilot must know his aircraft and weapons limits in order to create as ideal as possible the environment for the missile to succeed.


The AMRAAM have a proximity fusing system that detonates the warhead without the missile impacting the target. Proximity fusing increases the odds of a kill.

Thank you Gambit. This is indeed interesting.

S/L Hassan is said to have guided the missile for 18 seconds which made him cross the LoC as well in some direction. When asked why did he take that risk, he simply said he wanted to make sure the missile doesn't miss the target. He also mentioned that target was well within E pole of his aircraft.

It probably means that AMRAAM was guided till the end and the Su-30 was unaware of the incoming missile until it was too late.
 
Since I didn't know what the term stood for, I had to Google it. For the benefit of others here as well;

  • Active RADAR Missile - A missile that contains an active RADAR set and other necessary avionics that allow the missile to fly independent of the launching platform's RADAR.
  • SARH (Semi-Active RADAR Homming) Missile - Requires the launch platform to maintain a RADAR lock on the target. The returning RADAR waves are intercepted by the missile for guidance. If the launch platform breaks RADAR lock with the target, then the missiles will lose guidance and fly wild.
  • F-Pole - F-Pole is a term associated with SARH missiles. It is the distance from the launching aircraft to the target at missile impact or better known as the missile stand-off distance. Soviet designed SARH missiles (mainly the R-27) are generally faster than American SARH missiles. When two fighters are approaching each other, the aircraft having the missile with the longest F-Pole usually wins. The F-Pole of a missile provides a relative performance measure between two forward-quarter missile shots. The purpose is to knock out the shooter's RADAR before his missile hits you. But it is still dependent on the launching platforms speed at launch. The missile will also have the speed of the launching platform to add to it's potential energy. The rocket motor doesn't burn for the entire flight of the missile, so any boost in the speed of the missile will aid it in hitting the intended target. You must also maintain an acceptable ASE (allowable steering error) so the missile does not loose lock. The truth is, the actual F-Pole of a given missile launch situation is classified.
  • A-Pole - A-Pole is the distance from the launching aircraft to the target when the missile begins active terminal guidance. The AIM-120 flies to a predetermined point in space using the INS and then activates it's onboard RADAR. This is approximately 10nm for the AIM-120 AMRAAM. The AIM-54 Phoenix missile contains active RADAR avionics but uses SARH mode to get to the target before switching to active. The A-Pole of the AIM-120 is classified.
  • E-Pole - The range from a threat aircraft that a drag must be accomplished to kinematically defeat any missile the bandit could have launched or is launching. This is also known as the no escape zone and is different for all missiles. The E-pole of a missile states that if a given missile flies to say 10 nm that it will hit it's target even if the target pulls up to an 8g maneuver at 500kts. But if the range is increased to 15 nm, then the missile may only be able to hit a target doing 5g's or less. If you look at this, you will see that the E-Pole includes the fact that the longer a missiles flies, the less the strike ability due to loss of kinetic energy. As stated before, a missile runs out of gas before it gets to it's intended target. So the ability to pull high g's by the missile diminishes as the missiles range increases. Remember from the BFM / ACM module that the missile will pull max lead as it flies to ensure a lead collision flight path. Again, the E-Pole of a given missile is classified.
 
Good question.

Lets first understand how an AMRAAM behaves and what are the factors which enable us to determine the Su 30 kill.

There is a concept called 'Kill Validity". Even in flight S/L Hassan didn't know he has shot down a flanker for sure. Or the missile was a hit in other words. He was not certain. But, the air defense controllers confirmed it via the basic indicators such as range, speed, disappearance of the blip etc.

However the question arises. Can the AD guys be wrong? Yes they can be.

What happened next is; PAF's studied the ACMI and FDR data which reveal the actual speed of the AMRAAM at all stages, altitudes, entry and exit velocity and the g's acting on the missile throughout the flight. This is when something interesting came up.

Milliseconds before impact AMRAAM has a behavior of emitting 'cylindrical slugs'. Right before impact, these cylindrical slugs are disbanded and hit the source emitting the radar signals. You will have noticed holes in the aircrafts (similar to those shown in the movie behind enemy lines when F-18 is shot down by a radar guided SAM)

The ACMI and FDR data clearly show that slugs have disbanded and hit the intended target which was emitting the radar waves. Chaff is simply not powerful enough to misguide an AMRAAM to disband its slugs.

Furthermore, it has also been 'heard' the slugs had initially hit the forward section of the Su-30. Disintegrating it from the middle.

Now the final thing.

The claim that 4-5 AMRAAMs were fired is just absurd because. The pieces of AMRAAM shown at the press conference clearly depicts a detonated missile. AMRAAM does not detonate if it doesn't hit the intended target. Had AMRAAM crashed into a village or whatever their claim is. They would have found its warhead as well. In a bent form or whatever. Its not a pathaka which went bad after landing in India. Its $500,000 missile which has protocols to follow.

@MODS: Please tag/highlight this post after scrutiny since it answers a lot of questions. Thanks!

@Armchair @Oscar @The Accountant @Windjammer @Imran Khan @Hodor

This clarifies everything. Kaiser Tufail could really have added this juicy bit to push forward the narrative. This is pretty seriously hard evidence.
 
The AMRAAM have a proximity fusing system that detonates the warhead without the missile impacting the target. Proximity fusing increases the odds of a kill.

A question.

Can an AMRAAM explode when the target outruns it and the missile hits lets say, a house on the ground?
 
For all those confused about two parachutes

0C4DAA4E-C3FB-4C49-891D-09A94E9A08C2.jpeg


This image is specific to Mig-21 Ejection seat. Remember, the Mig-21 pilot ejected above 10,000 ft.

And pls dont show me youtube ejection videos ( they are all below 10K)

A question.

Can an AMRAAM explode when the target outruns it and the missile hits lets say, a house on the ground?

The moment target outruns it, the missile will explode hoping to incur possible damage to target and avoid collatral on ground. But missiles are not dodged like the movie Behind the Enemy Lines. Actual missiles hardly miss and pilots are generally told to eject if the missile is near
 
This clarifies everything. Kaiser Tufail could really have added this juicy bit to push forward the narrative. This is pretty seriously hard evidence.

This information is pretty rare to find in civilian circles so its unlikely Kaiser Tufail would take this risk. Since he would explain all this with more detail due to the virtue of his experience.

The moment target outruns it, the missile will explode hoping to incur possible damage to target and avoid collatral on ground. But missiles are not dodged like the movie Behind the Enemy Lines. Actual missiles hardly miss and pilots are generally told to eject if the missile is near

I have been told exactly opposite by guys here at 9 Sqn.

AMRAAM doesn't self destruct. Atleast the C5/C7 variants do not.

Even NATO believes that. This is why they launched a multi million dollar search for the misfired AMRAAM which was never found. According to latest reports it is possible that the missile has gone underground due to the sheer velocity it flies with. But it certainly never exploded or else they would have found the debris within the extrapolated time.
 
This information is pretty rare to find in civilian circles so its unlikely Kaiser Tufail would take this risk. Since he would explain all this with more detail due to the virtue of his experience.



I have been told exactly opposite by guys here at 9 Sqn.

AMRAAM doesn't self destruct. Atleast the C5/C7 variants do not.

Even NATO believes that. This is why they launched a multi million dollar search for the misfired AMRAAM which was never found. According to latest reports it is possible that the missile has gone underground due to the sheer velocity it flies with. But it certainly never exploded or else they would have found the debris within the extrapolated time.

Thats a different debate. If its active radar aquires the target then it will always self destruct assuming the target has over shot it.

However, like the one you saying a case of mis fire then missile will not aquire the target and thus no self destruction.
 

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