22 killed in US missile strike in N Waziristan

[Flintlock]

Well, IMO, Americans simply took advantage of what was available to them. They did perhaps make fundamentalism worse than it already was, but they could not have done anything without the permission and full cooperation of Pakistan.

 

[zhero]

As I understand it, the Saudis provided the $$$, US the intelligence (+ stingers) and Pakistan the logistics....

Did the US twist Pakistan's arm for this? They (US) proposed and Pakistan accepted. It was a partnership. And what happened to this network after the Soviets and the US left Afghanistan? Wasn't it used by Pakistan?

 

[qsaark]

Well, IMO, Americans simply took advantage of what was available to them. They did perhaps make fundamentalism worse than it already was, but they could not have done anything without the permission and full cooperation of Pakistan.

There aren't two opinion on this. As I have said before, I hold General Zia and his military advisors + Jamat e Islami (I consider JI and their student wing, the IJT more dangerous than all Pakistan's enemies in combine) as much responsible for every thing.

 

[belarusian]

egypyt is the second largest recipient of american foreign aid. why? because they made peace with israel.

i think you guys were supposed to make peace with india. unless america wants to subsidize a war against india that doesn't seem to make much sense. alquaeda is a product of kashmir fighting too.

i saw a film and there was an israeli soldier and they were in this guys house in gaza and a man is making hand motions with a baby bottle saying hey we need food for our kids.

and the israeli soldier says i feel bad for them but they voted for this, they voted for hamas, its what they chose.

why are there al quaeda sanctuaries in your country? I think there might be an attitude of well we can stick it to the americans and they can't do anything. that's what khomeini used to say "the americans can't do a damn thing."

and then saddam invaded

 

[roadrunner]

why are there al quaeda sanctuaries in your country? I think there might be an attitude of well we can stick it to the americans and they can't do anything. that's what khomeini used to say "the americans can't do a damn thing."

and then saddam invaded

There's "al Qaeda sanctuaries" in Pakistan because of the Americans' p!ss poor war planning, leaving huge craters as they steamed into that great victory of securing Kabul of theirs. In the meantime, they let thousands of Al Qaeda filter into the population and make their way into the tribal areas of Pakistan.

These tribal areas were seen as a safe haven by Al Qaeda because of the tribal code. If you watch the film, "the Beast" you will understand some Pashtunwali, and then the tribal code, and then why the Uzbeks and Arabs are not immediately expelled from the region.

If you have anymore questions, just ask.

 

[moha199]

Your beloved leader signed agreemnt for that .Shame on him ,

Still you like him and doing advocay for him , strange

Would you prove that Musharraf has signed an agreement with USA? If you can do so please!. As far as it goes, he had come to world media and denied that there isn't any agreement with USA over cross borders attacks in any way!!!

 

[S-2]

"America and Saudi provided financing for these madrassas."

Who's idea was it to expand the Pakistani madrassa system as a means of accomodating and, then, mobilizing these displaced afghani boys? Who might see this mechanism as a useful means to achieve islamic purposes in Afghanistan AND Pakistan-America?

Fellow-travellers of somebody else's suggestion is likely. After all, the reputation of Pakistan's madrassa's prior to the invasion was impeccable throughout S. Asia and the middle-east.

"The Americans then used these madrassas to brainwash Afghani kids into believeing the Godless Soviets wanted a war on Islam."

Instructors from Langley, eh? Somebody else was doing the brainwashing. No way we could handle the theological end of this fantasy.

"Weapons training was given to them."

Really? So? Was this something that required American instruction? Even with Stinger, do you believe that it was Americans providing instruction? No need. One MTT and ten missiles in Baluchistan for one week-end trains 20 P.A. air-defense officers to handle all specialized instruction for mujahideen shooters.

Everything else provided internally by your army. Didn't need us one bit.

"The Pakistani government of Zia was complicit in this."

"Complicit" is a gross understatement. It was most likely Zia or his boys that figured this gig.

Think about it.

 

[roadrunner]

"America and Saudi provided financing for these madrassas."

Who's idea was it to expand the Pakistani madrassa system as a means of accomodating and, then, mobilizing these displaced afghani boys? Who might see this mechanism as a useful means to achieve islamic purposes in Afghanistan AND Pakistan-America?

Fellow-travellers of somebody else's suggestion is likely. After all, the reputation of Pakistan's madrassa's prior to the invasion was impeccable throughout S. Asia and the middle-east.

"The Americans then used these madrassas to brainwash Afghani kids into believeing the Godless Soviets wanted a war on Islam."

Instructors from Langley, eh? Somebody else was doing the brainwashing. No way we could handle the theological end of this fantasy.

"Weapons training was given to them."

Really? So? Was this something that required American instruction? Even with Stinger, do you believe that it was Americans providing instruction? No need. One MTT and ten missiles in Baluchistan for one week-end trains 20 P.A. air-defense officers to handle all specialized instruction for mujahideen shooters.

Everything else provided internally by your army. Didn't need us one bit.

"The Pakistani government of Zia was complicit in this."

"Complicit" is a gross understatement. It was most likely Zia or his boys that figured this gig.

Think about it.

Quit your denial.

It's on record, that you supported the Mujahideen with training, weapons, and though the ideology was dispersed by crazed Mullahs probably imported from Saudi, it was a plan that was most likely hatched in the US, with Zia being the idiot puppet to carry out the logistics. You could not stir up the sentiments of the Afghani people without radicalizing them, was the thought process. You were wrong, of course, but that was the thinking.

 

[haviZsultan]

RR is absolutely right. American terror must be stopped at all costs. Taliban and Al Qaeda are being supported by USA to drain Pakistani blood. US has no respect for anyone. Ally or enemy. America is a rogue terrorist nation and it seems most of its people like Mr S2 are brainwashed into believing whatever idiocy that comes out of the ****** media.

US knows the anger the airstrikes create and they are damaging the war on terror but they also know the effects will only be felt by Pakistanis who have ground forces in the region and they are the ones who will get killed. They know the blasts and attacks will only be done in Pakistan.

The purpose of Pakistan in this war is to basically take the bullets for America just like during the afghan soviet war. We cannot pay such a price for a bunch of imbecile terrorist supporters who are selfish as anything and can cross any limit in the name of terror. Its just fear. There has been no attack in 9/11 on US soil but only afghans iraqis and pakistanis being killed because america could'nt realize its policies were making it harder for us to kill bastards like mehsud.

America it seems has become the wounded wild bull of the civilized world trying to spread its pain and damage the whole world just because it has been damaged. Any limit can be passed, anything can be done in the name of the war on terror.

The Pakistani people must withdraw from the american war on terror and firhgt our own pakistani war on terror bcauz the 2 are different. I think a good solution to end the constant growing numbers of the taliban would be to go for a change in our policies ASAP and treat both taliban and US as equally dangerous as they are. We should knock down a few predators and start up a few border clashes and hopefully in the process knock down a few american troops to get the US in its sense possibly straining relations as well. Then it will be much easier to take action against the tehreek e taliban and CIA sponsored terror outfits by cutting off their support.

Also we should ask who is more dangerous
The Bloodthirsty ****** talibani vampiric bloodsucking bastard swho spend its time killing innocent Pakistanis on any hint of what it thinks is unfair policies or same terrorist nation that uses these people once for its own benefit calling them heroes to fight the soviets but are now pushing all to do more adn take bullets from the monsters they have bred and want to sit on the sidelines and watch Pakistanis and taliban kill each other by flaming the taliban and ensuring Pakistani blood is spilt in the process.

US plods the taliban along and they go along with their terroristic plotting and murdering killing Pakistani civilians and massacring them in the name of Islam . I think it is hard to decide which is worse. The one who is foolish and illiterate but murderous and destructive or the one who enjoys using its power and economy to create and support these monsters for their own ends and then using other nations as their pawns to fight these same monsters when they are not needed and sits on the sidelines clapping along hoping that Pakistan will be ruined in the process.

Pakistan must not fall for USA's trap and we need to be neutral now. We cannot win the war. The numbers of the taliban are dramatically increasing. My own analysis unit and our past records show this. The insurgency will increase. We have to stop now! America has gone too far and the further it goes the stronger the cause of the taliban becomes. From being a nation that was just siding with the Afghans and US out of sympathy for 9/11 we have become the victims. We should have never trusted the americans. They have always harmed us.

 

[qsaark]

Quit your denial.

It's on record, that you supported the Mujahideen with training, weapons, and though the ideology was dispersed by crazed Mullahs probably imported from Saudi, it was a plan that was most likely hatched in the US, with Zia being the idiot puppet to carry out the logistics. You could not stir up the sentiments of the Afghani people without radicalizing them, was the thought process. You were wrong, of course, but that was the thinking.

Your words are falling upon deaf ears. Lets agree to disagree on this and move on. After all it is the fault of ours, why we fell into the trap. And we learnt nothing from this, on some other threads, you might have noticed that many Pakistanis still think that dictatorship is better than the democracy.

 

[haviZsultan]

Quit your denial.

It's on record, that you supported the Mujahideen with training, weapons, and though the ideology was dispersed by crazed Mullahs probably imported from Saudi, it was a plan that was most likely hatched in the US, with Zia being the idiot puppet to carry out the logistics. You could not stir up the sentiments of the Afghani people without radicalizing them, was the thought process. You were wrong, of course, but that was the thinking.

I think the poor guy has not seen his own 70's movies and news telecasts. The taliban were being presented as great heroes against the "dirty evil Soviets". Ever watch "charlie wilsons war". ahmed shah massoud was recieving almost no help. It was mostly taliban that were being supported by america and that is why they came to control the region. Now they become enemies after 9/11 and USA wakes up not when taliban terrorize afghans and even pakistanis. 2 pakistanis were tortured brutally and killed in kabul for what they said was "zinah". US supported these talibani faggots. Not a word was heard about taliban after 9/11 nor did anyone care. The soviet war they were known to be fighting the soviets and they were our allies. I swear check the newscasts. Thats how they reffered to them. What about Rambo? Damn these guys seem to be not only in denial but they have some syndrome to **** up the world, destroy nations drop 2 big atom bombs and then even forget about it and go back to being the boss and trying to tell others not to have nukes... "raat gayi toh baat gayi" Ever heard the saying? Thats their syndrome. They want to forget the wrongs they have committed and ignore them completely.

We committed suicide by even thinking US would be our friend. When they betrayed Hazrat Jinnah Quaid E AZam @t the em himself we should have known. If such are our "friends" then God save us from our enemies. They are backstabbers.

Do the Indians have issues with the soviets? Do they ever have anything to say about being treated as unequal's or inferiors by them? We have the worst allies. By being the allies of US we are doing the worst damage to ourselves. We should have aligned ourselves to China and Russia. We can never know what to expect from USA. Based on how much they need us we will be used by them. Only we can take a stand and say we do not allow ourselves to be used. Treat us as equal or get lost. Thats what needs to be said.

 

[S-2]

"The taliban were being presented as great heroes against the "dirty evil Soviets".

Ummm...dimension117, we called them mujahideen back in the day-not taliban. Later, much later. Around 1994 near Kandahar came the taliban.

Just part of my brain-washing.

 

[roadrunner]

Speaking of films, if anyone has got an old copy of Rambo III, when John J is in Afghanistan rescuing Trautman, the end has a dedication "to the brave men and women of Afghanistan" i.e.to the mujahideen/Taliban.

They've probably wiped that clean off in newer releases.

 

[zhero]

"...it was a plan that was most likely hatched in the US, with Zia being the idiot puppet to carry out the logistics.."

- People on this board are saying that Zia was a fool and a puppet. What choice did he have? With the Soviets on one border and India on the other, could he have said 'no' to the Americans? What would Pakistan have looked like today if he had said 'NO'? It was a collaboration that appeared to be beneficial for all.....

- In many ways, today's policy predicaments for Pakistan still appear to be the same .

 

[roadrunner]

Ummm...dimension117, we called them mujahideen back in the day-not taliban. Later, much later. Around 1994 near Kandahar came the taliban.

Just part of my brain-washing.

The Mujahideen became the Taliban.

Examples, Mullah Omar was a Mujahideen commander, then became a Taliban commander.

The foot soldiers were from a different generation perhaps.

But all the commanders of the Taliban were ex Mujahideen fighters trained, and brainwashed for the Soviet war in US/Saudi funded madrassas supported by Zia's government.