21-Gun Salute for Martyred Colonel

[vayuputhra]

not martyred, rather killed. If yr referring he islamic term shaheed which is roughly translated to martyr in english then its wrong,, Its reserved for the people who have died for islam not anyother religion or reasons.

Mr nawaz you are the ignorant of all, do you think Hindus don't have such a term or word, " veer gati " " veer swarg" "shiv ikya"are the religious terms for martyrs in Hinduism, this is not new, its been from time immemorial, do you know that even Hindus have a counter word for jihad its"dharma yudh" Hindus don't misuse this word like muslims,.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Dont worry i know every bit of what u mean as a former indian soldier.

Anyways plz elaborate what u found offensive?

u can reply me here if u want.

Whatever | Page 4156

Did I say offensive? I did not mean that; I meant that taking away his martyr status was disrespectful. It is clear now that you were concentrating on the word, and I was concentrating on holding back my tears.

I really respect MaarKhoor btw.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

That want a request. It was a statement.

Shaheed is not a core hindi word. It's Arabic in origin. No amount of Hindu nationalist propaganda week change historically accepted facts.

Shaheed is an Indian word, our soldiers martyr in the cause of the motherland. You should learn from the great traditions of the Indian Army.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Mr nawaz you are the ignorant of all, do you think Hindus don't have such a term or word, " veer gati " " veer swarg" "shiv ikya"are the religious terms for martyrs in Hinduism, this is not new, its been from time immemorial, do you know that even Hindus have a counter word for jihad its"dharma yudh" Hindus don't misuse this word like muslims,.

You missed the point.

It was precisely that every religion has its etymology, and think (wrongly) that the etymology is reserved to them for all time to come. He has no objection to Hindu terms being used for a Hindu martyr.

It is you and I who object, because to us, an Indian soldier is not Hindu, he is Indian, and words applicable to Christian, or Muslim, or Hindu are equally applicable to him.

As in all things perception matters in short term. There is a perception of forward momentum when compared to Anthony's stay in Raksha Mantrayala.

As for long term if what you say is correct then it is indeed dangerous - there ought to be basic bond of trust and reliance b/w Service Personnel and Politicians where Politicians and Bureaucrats take care of the funding and deal - making and Services take care of the balance. I hope these foundations remain strong. We have had a pretty good ride without any hiccups barring I think V. K. Singh.

OROP should have been resolved in much more dignified manner, the prolonged protests are creating bad blood but I am sure Services know their duty and would continue to perform according their impeccable standards irrespective of what happens.

I heard there was under-currents of politics involved in retired personnel protests but hard to separate fact from fiction - so much of MSM reporting is just spin.

Not correct.

Our (military) leadership has been marvellous, but the bureaucracy, and, influenced by them, the politicals have been utterly non-responsive. I could go on and on and on; should I, here, of all places?

Rule of thumb: those senior officers who stayed chamcha and concentrated on buying golfcarts under the heading of earth-moving equipment got smooth rides. Those who pointed these things out got a full command, and then got it stripped of all fighting arms. Only blue berets there. Look it up.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Did I say offensive? I did not mean that; I meant that taking away his martyr status was disrespectful. It is clear now that you were concentrating on the word, and I was concentrating on holding back my tears.

I really respect MaarKhoor btw.

I was taken by surprise with yr sudden blitzkrieg. Thats why i asked.

Anyways no disrespect to the fallen Officer. RIP.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Not correct.

Our (military) leadership has been marvellous, but the bureaucracy, and, influenced by them, the politicals have been utterly non-responsive. I could go on and on and on; should I, here, of all places?

Rule of thumb: those senior officers who stayed chamcha and concentrated on buying golfcarts under the heading of earth-moving equipment got smooth rides. Those who pointed these things out got a full command, and then got it stripped of all fighting arms. Only blue berets there. Look it up.

Yes the fact remains that Bureaucracy does have a strangle hold on the
Defence Minister ; on every defence minister

It is kind of inevitable ; a matter of time when a Defence minister has to
CHOOSE SIDES

This also creates a question why do the Senior officers and The Bureaucracy
view each other the way they do

The stories of lack of trust and differences of opinion are way too many

 

[Spectre]

Not correct.

Our (military) leadership has been marvellous, but the bureaucracy, and, influenced by them, the politicals have been utterly non-responsive. I could go on and on and on; should I, here, of all places?

Rule of thumb: those senior officers who stayed chamcha and concentrated on buying golfcarts under the heading of earth-moving equipment got smooth rides. Those who pointed these things out got a full command, and then got it stripped of all fighting arms. Only blue berets there. Look it up.

As usual I would defer to your experience and what I believe is first hand knowledge of the inner workings of the bureaucratic machinery.

I agree this is not the thread for such discussions - my apologies.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Yes the fact remains that Bureaucracy does have a strangle hold on the
Defence Minister ; on every defence minister

It is kind of inevitable ; a matter of time when a Defence minister has to
CHOOSE SIDES

This also creates a question why do the Senior officers and The Bureaucracy
view each other the way they do

The stories of lack of trust and differences of opinion are way too many

You should know a fundamental impediment in the whole bloody tamasha.

The Defence Ministry, distinct from other ministries, has its own separate finance section, almost independent of the Finance Ministry. As they say, Bade miya to bade miya, chhote miya to subhan allah. They are far more ferocious in defending the tax-payers' naya paisa than the rest of the government apparatus put together. I was present at a high-level meeting between the Air Force (two distinguished Air Commodores, one of whom had inducted the Mirages into the service, and flown the first flight all the way across from France) and two slimy little safari-suited, pan-chewing, greasy haired reptiles at Deputy Secretary and Section Head level, where the subject of discussion was the acquisition of four (4, that's 1, 2, 3 and 4) devices of a type readily available in degraded non-Mil Spec form in any Delhi electronics market. After fortyfive minutes of innuendo and sneer, more or less implying that the air force guys were on the take, the babus condescendingly agreed to clear two (2, that's 1,2). BUT the file would have to be moved afresh.

If we called in Jehadi John to behead every fucking bureaucrat in the Defence Ministry, we would shoot ahead twenty years in a few months.

As usual I would defer to your experience and what I believe is first hand knowledge of the inner workings of the bureaucratic machinery.

I agree this is not the thread for such discussions - my apologies.

Oh, I didn't mean that. But this is a commemorative thread. We should salute the martyr.

As usual I would defer to your experience and what I believe is first hand knowledge of the inner workings of the bureaucratic machinery.

I agree this is not the thread for such discussions - my apologies.

Just thinking about the bureaucracy and its approach brings on a BP attack. They are unbelievable.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

The Defence Ministry, distinct from other ministries, has its own separate finance section, almost independent of the Finance Ministry. As they say, Bade miya to bade miya, chhote miya to subhan allah. They are far more ferocious in defending the tax-payers' naya paisa than the rest of the government apparatus put together. I was present at a high-level meeting between the Air Force (two distinguished Air Commodores, one of whom had inducted the Mirages into the service, and flown the first flight all the way across from France) and two slimy little safari-suited, pan-chewing, greasy haired reptiles at Deputy Secretary and Section Head level, where the subject of discussion was the acquisition of four (4, that's 1, 2, 3 and 4) devices of a type readily available in degraded non-Mil Spec form in any Delhi electronics market. After fortyfive minutes of innuendo and sneer, more or less implying that the air force guys were on the take, the babus condescendingly agreed to clear two (2, that's 1,2). BUT the file would have to be moved afresh.

Yes today the Defence Ministry bureaucrats have a thumb rule to approve sixty percent
of every demand from the armed forces

 

[Spectre]

Just thinking about the bureaucracy and its approach brings on a BP attack. They are unbelievable.

Off-topic

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It's been some time since I actively interacted with the bureaucracy - my last interactions were with MHA and MEA when I was consulting for Japanese Embassy, all interactions were cordial and to the the point. Permissions and clearances granted for holding some large scale outdoor events by Japanese Embassy without any delay and hassles.

I am afraid that has been the extent of my interactions but then I guess having a senior Japanese Diplomat besides me while meeting secretary level bureaucrats helped things a lot and Japanese have good equations with bureaucrats. To be honest I was surprised by the ease things were handled.

Interesting thing is that all this happened under UPA govt.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Off-topic
It's been some time since I actively interacted with the bureaucracy - my last interactions were with MHA and MEA when I was consulting for Japanese Embassy, all interactions were cordial and to the the point. Permissions and clearances granted for holding some large scale outdoor events by Japanese Embassy without any delay and hassles.

I am afraid that has been the extent of my interactions but then I guess having a senior Japanese Diplomat besides me while meeting secretary level bureaucrats helped things a lot and Japanese have good equations with bureaucrats. To be honest I was surprised by the ease things were handled.

Interesting thing is that all this happened under UPA govt.

The events that you have mentioned did NOT involve any expenditure

Hence the smooth clearances

The Bureaucracy shows its true colours when money is to be spent
They have a standard reason for doing so

Lack of resources ; too many needs

 

[NIA]

@waz
This thread was started for a martyr and ended up with bureaucracy, origin of word "Shaheed".
Plz close it.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Off-topic

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's been some time since I actively interacted with the bureaucracy - my last interactions were with MHA and MEA when I was consulting for Japanese Embassy, all interactions were cordial and to the the point. Permissions and clearances granted for holding some large scale outdoor events by Japanese Embassy without any delay and hassles.

I am afraid that has been the extent of my interactions but then I guess having a senior Japanese Diplomat besides me while meeting secretary level bureaucrats helped things a lot and Japanese have good equations with bureaucrats. To be honest I was surprised by the ease things were handled.

Interesting thing is that all this happened under UPA govt.

Second difference - it was the MEA you were dealing with, part of the time (the MHA is not a great place, although strangely enough, I have more connects, personal and professional, there than in the MOD). They are very good. I got first hand experience of this, having to deal with the JS(X), a cadre post within the Ministry always reserved for the IFS.