21-Gun Salute for Martyred Colonel

[Joe Shearer]

Of course as a polite request for clarification

I think you have some more information about Parrikar that has made you so angry

Because the media has NOT published any negative articles about him
other than one Guard of Honour thing

What exactly has Mr Parrikar done that you call him a bloody turd

Is it because of OROP ; a Guard of honour or what else

@Stephen Cohen

I mentioned four things.

Doesn't know how to behave - the guard of honour was just one incident. Serving officers are furious at the cavalier way in which he treats the ceremonial and procedures of the services. These are not to be mocked. A relative had provided armed security to somebody under threat of his life, who was attacked in his home by armed men, and fought them off. He went to call on that person. On his departure, he was given a normal present arms by the guard, and the ladies of the house and visitors started tittering. The guard was withdrawn. If you do not respect the ways of the forces, please keep it to yourself. There has been enough insulting behaviour from this man.

Doesn't know how to respect those years his senior who are the service chiefs - that relates to his horrible behaviour in high-level meetings with them and with their Principal Staff Officers. If you know anybody at all in the services, you can get blow by blow descriptions of his uppish attitude and his arrogance.

Doesn't know how to speak about servicemen - he has now started threatening servicemen for thinking that the government has given them a bum deal, with pensions to be adjusted every five years. This is not the way to talk, and to accuse them of lack of respect for the country is preposterous, considering his own behaviour and considering the people he is speaking about, all of them people who have put their lives at stake, unlike this smarmy political ***-licker.

For the fourth, I will get into very dangerous territory, but will ask you to ask yourselves one question: has his coming set right a single one of the major problems of any of the three major services? The problems are clear and manifest; all who are involved or interested in defence matters know them. Any one settled?

 

[Point_4590]

Veer Gati is MARTYRDOM

Shaheed is a MARTYR

Shaheed has nothing to do with Islam just like several perian words or the language itself which predates Islam.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@Stephen Cohen

I mentioned four things.

Doesn't know how to behave - the guard of honour was just one incident. Serving officers are furious at the cavalier way in which he treats the ceremonial and procedures of the services. These are not to be mocked. A relative had provided armed security to somebody under threat of his life, who was attacked in his home by armed men, and fought them off. He went to call on that person. On his departure, he was given a normal present arms by the guard, and the ladies of the house and visitors started tittering. The guard was withdrawn. If you do not respect the ways of the forces, please keep it to yourself. There has been enough insulting behaviour from this man.

Doesn't know how to respect those years his senior who are the service chiefs - that relates to his horrible behaviour in high-level meetings with them and with their Principal Staff Officers. If you know anybody at all in the services, you can get blow by blow descriptions of his uppish attitude and his arrogance.

Doesn't know how to speak about servicemen - he has now started threatening servicemen for thinking that the government has given them a bum deal, with pensions to be adjusted every five years. This is not the way to talk, and to accuse them of lack of respect for the country is preposterous, considering his own behaviour and considering the people he is speaking about, all of them people who have put their lives at stake, unlike this smarmy political ***-licker.

For the fourth, I will get into very dangerous territory, but will ask you to ask yourselves one question: has his coming set right a single one of the major problems of any of the three major services? The problems are clear and manifest; all who are involved or interested in defence matters know them. Any one settled?

You have raised some very valid and serious issues

These must be highlighted in Mainstream media and taken further
There are many able journalists who can highlight these issues in different
ways

THANK YOU for the clarifications

 

[Joe Shearer]

Similarly I didn t like what you said about a very capable and hard working defence Minister
Who is also well educated ; incorruptible and experienced administrator ;

HE HAS also REMOVED the HUGE BOTTLENECKS and LOGJAMS created by SAINT ANTONY
The previous defence Minister

He is making India STRONG ; And you have a problem with him ;
so please shed some light on your issues with Mr Parrikar

He has in fact done NOTHING.

You have raised some very valid and serious issues

These must be highlighted in Mainstream media

THANK YOU for the clarifications

The mainstream media in India is beneath contempt. There is nothing to be expected from them. Parrikar has single-handedly lost the support that the retired servicemen and officers had extended to the alternative that they had hoped would honour its promises, made in the presence of a former chief of army staff, and give them justice. Now that hope has gone.

Shaheed has nothing to do with Islam just like several perian words or the language itself which predates Islam.

What does Persian have to do with all this? Just curious.

Tbh i dont see you guys using word shaheed for people who died before. .. Let say centuries ago- mahabharta?

I know you are being flippant, but on a serious note, the term was originated for those who died for a cause, in this case, the cause of God and true faith (true according to the believer). So using it for those who die in any random battle is meaningless. To use it for those who die defending their nation is appropriate; the nation is a cause. In some ways, in Indic usage, the nation is greater than heaven: Janani janmabhoomischa swargadopi garioshi Mother and the country are greater than Heaven. When Pakistanis call their dead soldiers Shaheed, it is in the exact same sense. They are not, strictly speaking, soldiers for Islam; they are soldiers for Pakistan.

Yes, yes, I know, soldiers for Pakistan are ipso facto soldiers for Islam. If we can put that aside for a moment..........

 

[Point_4590]

Today they are claiming Arabic tomorrow they will claim persian.

He has in fact done NOTHING.



The mainstream media in India is beneath contempt. There is nothing to be expected from them. Parrikar has single-handedly lost the support that the retired servicemen and officers had extended to the alternative that they had hoped would honour its promises, made in the presence of a former chief of army staff, and give them justice. Now that hope has gone.



What does Persian have to do with all this? Just curious.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Today they are claiming Arabic tomorrow they will claim persian.

Please let's stick to facts. Shaheed is a derivative of Shahadat, witness. There is no Persian creeping in here. It would be appropriate to cite Persian, for instance, if questioning the right wing values that have devalued 'Khuda Hafeez' and have sanctified 'Allah Hafeez'. A sad development, btw.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

He has in fact done NOTHING.

Here I would disagree with you

The mainstream media in India is beneath contempt. There is nothing to be expected from them. Parrikar has single-handedly lost the support that the retired servicemen and officers had extended to the alternative that they had hoped would honour its promises, made in the presence of a former chief of army staff, and give them justice. Now that hope has gone.

It is the Mainstream media who pulled up ANTONY for his indecisiveness ; and vaccilations
which harmed the armed forces' prepared ness

If Parrikar has to be pulled up ONLY the Mainstream media can do so

But they would need more facts ; you may have to personally meet them

Sir you can contact Mr Ajay Shukla and Prasoon Sengupta and Mr Shiv Aroor

All these guys have their OWN BLOGS namely Broadsword ; Trishul Trident and Livefist

Regarding OROP ; Ninety percent of the demands have been met

Anyway you should proceed against Mr Parrikar in a formal and proper manner
But saying things against him here will not serve any purpose

NOBODY is above The Armed forces ; let us hear his side ( ie Mr Parrikar's version ) of the story

 

[Joe Shearer]

Here I would disagree with you



It is the Mainstream media who pulled up ANTONY for his indecisiveness ; and vaccilations
which harmed the armed forces' prepared ness

If Parrikar has to be pulled up ONLY the Mainstream media can do so

But they would need more facts ; you may have to personally meet them

Sir you can contact Mr Ajay Shukla and Prasoon Sengupta and Mr Shiv Aroor

All these guys have their OWN BLOGS namely Broadsword ; Trishul Trident and Livefist

Regarding OROP ; Ninety percent of the demands have been met

Anyway you should proceed against Mr Parrikar in a formal and proper manner
But saying things against him here will not serve any purpose

NOBODY is above The Armed forces ; let us hear his side ( ie Mr Parrikar's version ) of the story

I personally know two out of the three you have mentioned, but they also know the very high-level sources who are enfuriated by the matters I have mentioned. They can find out for themselves, but everybody is playing their own little games, at the expense of our military personnel.

Incidentally, one of them is so strikingly inaccurate that I automatically discard any information he puts out. Of the other two, one, being an ex-Fauji, should be totally authentic but he adds his own mirch masala every time, leaving everybody who reads it and knows the facts tearing their hair in frustration. Only one - the youngest - is worthy anything.

And I am not going anywhere with my issues; they will ask for locus standi and chase me out of there. Let the Furies decide.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

That is why I said that the word was Arabic: there are words from many languages in Urdu, and, in fact, there is nothing called an original Urdu word. If we speak about individual words, we need to particularly mention what the roots were. Urdu itself does not have a standard dialect; somebody will speak it with a great percentage of Hindi words in it, somebody speaking to that same person, in the same conversation, may speak it with a much larger percentage of Persian (typically) or with sub-sets of Turkish and Arabic.

You are correct in saying that it was developed to communicate among different ethnicities; you are being narrow-minded and rude in calling some of them 'natives', although I suspect that it was unintentional and that you meant no offence; you are also wrong in ascribing it to the Mughals - it was far older. Amir Khusrau was among the first to use it effectively, so that should give you the general idea. It grew out of the camp (ord) speech, or patois, of the Turks under the Slave Dynasty.



Please retain a sense of proportion.

It is a word borrowed by another language, and used in a broader sense than originally used. Just like the word martyr.

No need to get hyper.

Yeah thats what i meant, as u have said we have to particularly mention the root of the word. I didnt mentioned the specific words like shahadat is the main word in arabic but surpassed it in saying its the same word with same logic used in urdu. BTW its used in turkish and other languages spoken in muslim world like farsi etc too for same purpose since it has religious angle to it.

But yr wrong in saying that it doesnt have a standard dialect. Actually it does, and that is luckhnovi and banasri dialect and to some extent Hyderabad Dakkan too.There two cities used to be the centre of excellence of Urdu language and its development back in the day. These days their literature and work is recognized as the standard when it comes to how u r supposed to speck this language. So that saying is no more correct specially now that anyone can peak it with a great percentage of Hindi words in it.

This would now be no longer correct. After independence of Pakistan, now those people responsible for the taking care of this language, researchers , poets etc along with their literature have came to Pakistan and now we carry that flag since it is our national language too.

And if u look at the world out there the national languages of any nation r pretty much standardized languages in every aspect since these r the matters of national pride, and we r no exception to this. It was already standardized in the Mughal era and was established as the language of Emperor's courts too. Thats why its called royal language as well. So much so that back in the day those who used to speak urdu fluently used to be considered as educated before this Farsi had the honor just like today fluent English speakers r considered educated.

So in short its dialect etc is pretty much standardized dont worry.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Yeah thats what i meant, as u have said we have to particularly mention the root of the word. I didnt mentioned the specific words like shahadat is the main word in arabic but surpassed it in saying its the same word with same logic used in urdu. BTW its used in turkish and other languages spoken in muslim world like farsi etc too for same purpose since it has religious angle to it.

But yr wrong in saying that it doesnt have a standard dialect. Actually it does, and that is luckhnovi and banasri dialect and to some extent Hyderabad Dakkan too.There two cities used to be the centre of excellence of Urdu language and its development back in the day. These days their literature and work is recognized as the standard when it comes to how u r supposed to speck this language. So that saying is no more correct specially now that anyone can peak it with a great percentage of Hindi words in it.

This would now be no longer correct. After independence of Pakistan, now those people responsible for the taking care of this language, researchers , poets etc along with their literature have came to Pakistan and now we carry that flag since it is our national language too.

And if u look at the world out there the national languages of any nation r pretty much standardized languages in every aspect since these r the matters of national pride, and we r no exception to this. It was already standardized in the Mughal era and was established as the language of Emperor's courts too. Thats why its called royal language as well. So much so that back in the day those who used to speak urdu fluently used to be considered as educated before this Farsi had the honor just like today fluent English speakers r considered educated.

So in short its dialect etc is pretty much standardized dont worry.

I only agree with your first paragraph. But this is the wrong thread; open a new one, or re-open an old one (there are several) and we'll see.

And I still regret your original post. Are you the custodian of holy property, including words? It was a small-minded point to make about a gallant officer and a combat casualty. Faujis (and their sons) don't piss on other faujis.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

I only agree with your first paragraph. But this is the wrong thread; open a new one, or re-open an old one (there are several) and we'll see.

And I still regret your original post. Are you the custodian of holy property, including words? It was a small-minded point to make about a gallant officer and a combat casualty. Faujis (and their sons) don't piss on other faujis.

hold on hold on. I didnt meant any disrespect. Nor did i said that. I just mentioned the origin of the Word and its purpose.

 

[Joe Shearer]

hold on hold on. I didnt meant any disrespect. Nor did i said that. I just mentioned the origin of the Word and its purpose.

Fair enough. I may have over-reacted. It is an emotional thing. So long as you show respect to the martyr, I have no quarrel with you - especially you. You know what I mean.

Here I would disagree with you



It is the Mainstream media who pulled up ANTONY for his indecisiveness ; and vaccilations
which harmed the armed forces' prepared ness

If Parrikar has to be pulled up ONLY the Mainstream media can do so

But they would need more facts ; you may have to personally meet them

Sir you can contact Mr Ajay Shukla and Prasoon Sengupta and Mr Shiv Aroor

All these guys have their OWN BLOGS namely Broadsword ; Trishul Trident and Livefist

Regarding OROP ; Ninety percent of the demands have been met

Anyway you should proceed against Mr Parrikar in a formal and proper manner
But saying things against him here will not serve any purpose

NOBODY is above The Armed forces ; let us hear his side ( ie Mr Parrikar's version ) of the story

At the end of the day, the mainstream media had no effect on that bloody man. They just pointed out his blunders, and he kept on blundering, until he left us in the same state as the forces were before 1962.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Fair enough. I may have over-reacted. It is an emotional thing. So long as you show respect to the martyr, I have no quarrel with you - especially you. You know what I mean.



At the end of the day, the mainstream media had no effect on that bloody man. They just pointed out his blunders, and he kept on blundering, until he left us in the same state as the forces were before 1962.

Dont worry i know every bit of what u mean as a former indian soldier.

Anyways plz elaborate what u found offensive?

u can reply me here if u want.

Whatever | Page 4156

 

[Stag112]

The original post did not even mention the word shaeed. But every islamist turdball feels the need to troll on a thread about Indian soldiers. Truly scum of the earth.

 

[Spectre]

I personally know two out of the three you have mentioned, but they also know the very high-level sources who are enfuriated by the matters I have mentioned. They can find out for themselves, but everybody is playing their own little games, at the expense of our military personnel.

Incidentally, one of them is so strikingly inaccurate that I automatically discard any information he puts out. Of the other two, one, being an ex-Fauji, should be totally authentic but he adds his own mirch masala every time, leaving everybody who reads it and knows the facts tearing their hair in frustration. Only one - the youngest - is worthy anything.

And I am not going anywhere with my issues; they will ask for locus standi and chase me out of there. Let the Furies decide.

As in all things perception matters in short term. There is a perception of forward momentum when compared to Anthony's stay in Raksha Mantrayala.

As for long term if what you say is correct then it is indeed dangerous - there ought to be basic bond of trust and reliance b/w Service Personnel and Politicians where Politicians and Bureaucrats take care of the funding and deal - making and Services take care of the balance. I hope these foundations remain strong. We have had a pretty good ride without any hiccups barring I think V. K. Singh.

OROP should have been resolved in much more dignified manner, the prolonged protests are creating bad blood but I am sure Services know their duty and would continue to perform according their impeccable standards irrespective of what happens.

I heard there was under-currents of politics involved in retired personnel protests but hard to separate fact from fiction - so much of MSM reporting is just spin.