2013 : West, Islam , and Global War on Terror!

[Azazel]

Explain how?

Uses too many generalization,Says "Islam has a VERY strong culture" but has no understanding of the sheer diversity of the culture among various Muslim communities around the world.Says "Islam presents itself as a "total" ideology covering all aspects of life" but fail too see through cultural aspect and Geo politics involved in it.Clearly author sees more Islamism than Islam itself.If a Muslim girls would not date a "non-Muslim" guy then its because of the cultural difference not Islam,Hindu girls also don't date non Hindu boys it has nothing to do with Hinduism.Then he talks about brotherhood as if it really exists.There are more flawed generalizations like this in the article,I can go on about it.But there is no need for that.

 

[Neptune]

Wanna know what a secular muslim thinks, I fully support the Global War On Terror. Also protecting our culture.

 

[Juice]

Mohammed [SAW] "started" Islam, how ignorant can you get?

Show me a mosque from before Mohamed was born.

 

[AUz]

Show me a mosque from before Mohamed was born.

There is none.

Talk on topic/OP...

 

[Kompromat]

Show me a mosque from before Mohamed was born.

You don't know what i was talking about, so the best option for you is to chill and not discuss it. Perhaps some other day.

 

[haviZsultan]

Off topic -
@haviZsultan, what post are you referring to? I would like to read it, if only you would respond with a link use PM, if you will. I can not use it yet.

Fauj is a certain way and his demeanor makes one wonder about who, how, and why of him being made a TT (Jr.)? Do not be too upset. I enjoy abuse coming from him. It is quite comical.

No, no, no Chak Bamu. I wasn't doubting his ability to be think tank. See the think tank position isn't about holding one view. Its about a variety of different views. Together we are a rainbow Chak Bamu and a rainbow wouldn't be a rainbow without different colours na.

I really appreciate Faujhistorian being on the think tank though he should not take Anti Americanism personally as he does.

My contention was doubting my patriotism which I did not like and labelling me an Islamist-and you know how much of an "Islamist" I am. I will send the said post by link in a PM? Sorry I could not understand properly.

I wrote my post because this is what I strongly feel about. Islam is my highest identity choice. My activism started from Bosnian genocide in 1993 while I was a student in USA on the basis of Humanity and Ummah feelings. Something has to get one started, and for me that was the start. Having spent a number of years in USA, I am particularly sensitive about issues relating to global Islam. Being an internationalist was just natural then. No AQ, no 9/11, no WOT. It was different then and there were no negative conotations to being an Islamist.

I truly feel sorry for them and the rights that have been taken. But you know when a lot of things were happening I looked within and asked. I mean what did they expect a nation like America to do. It is involved in war throughout its life and has written its history in the blood-dipped hands of Philipinos and Mexicans from which they stole what is now their territory. Were the Al Qaeda expecting them to sit idly? These terrorists create the mess ordinary Ali's and Mohammed's go through.

We support them by not understanding that our system is what the west sits on today-not that the west is trying to impose its culture on us. Ibn Rushd is still referred as the father of modern day secularism but it is such a crime we do not teach our children about him because we have come to equate secularism with anti-Islamic forces. Its our fault for abandoning Ijtehad. Somethings have no relation to the west.

What can one call someone who focuses on political process and not extremism or militancy? Now it is hard to establish fine and important distinctions when just one word, "Taliban" or "beardo" or other such derogatory name can be taken to cover entire spectrum of thought. That is just shameful and this is the real loss from WOT. Reasonable people willing to participate in constitutional political process get demeaned and sidelined like this. Extreme nationalists display such ignorance and apathy that one wonders if it is at all possible to talk to such people? Nationalism itself has such a deplorable record that unless it is made subservient to some higher philosophy, it can easily become a destrutive force. This philosophy makes normal and reasonable people become demons in the name of a country.

I think partly these people need to look within. If you look at me I am essentially a self-hater Chak Bamu. My Lucknowi forefathers of the Firangi mahal house Deoband e uloom madrassa or university. But I dislike deobandis (though my family was very moderate deobandi and believed in ijtehad-modern ones are the issue) Then I insult their sacrifice by calling myself a Pashtun (though I maintain loyalty to Firangi mahal and my fathers side) with no links on my mothers side except Pir Roshan was an Ansari as were Burkis. I sympathize more with Shia despite being Sunni. What does this tell you other than I am a sucker for any cause I see as noble? It tells you that I am a notorious self-critic though this does not stop me from criticizing others.

Nationalists cannot be blamed here for trying to defend their nation. And we have done so not against only Islamists, ethno-fascists but also the Americans and Indians. Have you seen how critical I am of US foreign policy and abuse against Pakistan?

Reasonable and Natiolist people should both look within.

I am skeptical of any good coming out of nationalism by itself. There is no humanity in it.

I disagree here. Nationalism is not just our right but our duty at birth. There is great humanity in it and I have already stated that I dedicate my life to the people. I sacrificed everything for nation and people. You do not know me.

I see future in moderate or mild Islamism that focuses on family values and moral living as a conscious individual choice. This is how Sufis work: focus on individual piety without being judgemental.

I appreciate your views. Just don't divide my countrymen in the name of anything. Religion, ethnicity... any other name. It is a request I make to all people. Sympathizing with the Ahmedi is a better way to bring him to your religion than insulting him. Always remember we can win people over.

PS> I know about thousand+ word post going to waste. On the secularism thread you started, I had a really long response to one of your posts, but then thought about its relevance and decided to not post it.

I believe it a real morale dampener that posts are ignored. Especially long ones. I am a writer and writers often need appreciation. Those Afghan nationals really battered me I guess.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

]Show me a mosque from before Mohamed was born[/B].

You don't know what i was talking about, so the best option for you is to chill and not discuss it. Perhaps some other day.

Masjid al-Haram of course. The Holy Kaaba was the first mosque built to worship Allah (The Quran 3:96).

 

[AUz]

Uses too many generalization,Says "Islam has a VERY strong culture" but has no understanding of the sheer diversity of the culture among various Muslim communities around the world.

Diversity in Islamic World does not negate the fact of the author that--quote--"Islam has a VERY strong culture". Perhaps he should have used the word "cultural influence" instead but anyways...

Says "Islam presents itself as a "total" ideology covering all aspects of life" but fail too see through cultural aspect and Geo politics involved in it.

What do you mean?

Then he talks about brotherhood as if it really exists.

It does. Not on the civilizational level, but on individual level, there is a sense of 'belonging' in Muslims--specially, in organizations like Taliban/Al Qaeda..people's Muslim identity over-shadows there ethnic identity..most of the times atleast, if not always.

 

[haviZsultan]

Wanna know what a secular muslim thinks, I fully support the Global War On Terror. Also protecting our culture.

I don't think secularism has or should have a major role in directing foreign policy. There nationalism and pure nationalism which itself stems from secular influences should reign supreme. I am in favor of a localized version of the war on terror and highly against relations with US for my country due to the following reasons:

1) Nuke deal with India but refused to Pakistan
2) Davis kills 2 Pakistanis and escapes. There is no proof of Afia being a terrorist and still in jail and will be there forever.
3) Fazlullah hiding in Kunar. Faqir Mohammed's (Ex-Bajaur Chief's) bases in Afghanistan.
4) US refusal to condemn India for the Siachen incursion but raising an outcry on the Kargil one which was made by fauji's after the Siachen debacle when they took 1000 miles of our land.
5) USA's offer to sell better quality F16's to India compared to what they sold us.
6) Framing of Pakistani innocents in the name of terrorism-Seen it, researched it.
7) Maltreatment of Pakistanis in airports and hounding of Pakistani political Organizations in north America. Even secular ones. Yes-this is the only thing they are good at.
8) Support for dictators in Pakistani land. 3 major ones had their backing. Zia was the one who Islamicized Pakistan with their blessing in case you did not notice.
9) Presler Amendment. When we were not needed by USA anymore. Cold war over, Afghanistan in ruins but of course the Soviets disgraced as they wanted that is what came. Military and economic cooperation CUT and mark my words IT WILL HAPPEN AGAIN-200% chance and I bet on my life when this war on terror is over this will come again. They will harass us even more than they are now.
10) The blame Pakistan suffers on a daily basis. Pakistan is held responsible for every failure. I believe you think we are responsible. Partly I agree, yes. But you do not know about the successes, Ramzi yousuf, Baradar, Khalid Sheikh (top 9/11 terrorist) were all capture by us.
11) Pakistan counting on US support and not getting any in 1971. Weak point? Leave that then. I think it is too. But consider the rest.
12) Add to this the Indian nuclear test smiling Buddha in 74 being ignored by the US while our military and economy being sanctioned.
13) Add to this the framing of Kashmiri activist Syed Ghulam Nabi Fai in a false case as an ISI agent in another attempt to malign ISI

Each country has local issues with terrorism. Lets deal with them and not work on foreign behest. It has done much damage. That is my personal view. I am for hunting down the TTP (Taliban) but without orders from the US.

 

[Azazel]

Diversity in Islamic World does not negate the fact of the author that--quote--"Islam has a VERY strong culture". Perhaps he should have used the word "cultural influence" instead but anyways...

Phrase "VERY strong culture" is a bit too ambiguous.

What do you mean?

The concept of that total Ideology is part of political Islam.Not everybody adheres too that.He is making too much generalization here.

It does. Not on the civilizational level, but on individual level, there is a sense of 'belonging' in Muslims--specially, in organizations like Taliban/Al Qaeda..people's Muslim identity over-shadows there ethnic identity..most of the times atleast, if not always.

This sense of belonging only exists when you are part of some pan Islamic movement.In real life culture and ethnicity are far more important than Muslim identity.

 

[pakdefender]

Show me a mosque from before Mohamed was born.

the central point towards which all muslims point toward during prayer (Kaaba) was built by Hazrat Ibrahim (Abraham) , Islam is continuation of Deen-e-Ibrahim because its a continuation of the teachings of Abraham.

 

[AUz]

The concept of that total Ideology is part of political Islam.Not everybody adheres too that.He is making too much generalization here.

I think the author knew that not everyone adheres to Political Islam (I believe he is not THAT dumb). What he probably wanted to point out was that Islam is a multi-dimensional ideology that has different aspects to it (Political, religious, legal, economic, military, social, and spiritual etc)...and this is what makes Islam "the strongest ideological force ever existed in human history" ....

Anyways, I liked his assessment of war on terror and what America should do...

I'd be interesting to see what @gambit has to say about this thread and OP....

 

[gambit]

I think the author knew that not everyone adheres to Political Islam (I believe he is not THAT dumb). What he probably wanted to point out was that Islam is a multi-dimensional ideology that has different aspects to it (Political, religious, legal, economic, military, social, and spiritual etc)...and this is what makes Islam "the strongest ideological force ever existed in human history" ....

Anyways, I liked his assessment of war on terror and what America should do...

I'd be interesting to see what @gambit has to say about this thread and OP....

Sure...Here are my two drachmas about this...

Islam presents itself as a "total" ideology covering all aspects of life, it gives it's followers a sense of a shared culture and brotherhood, and a sense of emptiness to those who begin to doubt it.Islam legislates almost EVERYTHING of a human being. It controls them completely. From food to sex ...from marriage to divorce..from personal cleanness to manners of using toilet etc. Islam plays role in everything and this make its followers to start recognizing with Islam. Islam just ingrains itself in the mind of follower and even if a follower leave Islam , he/she won't come out of it for ever! (I know many such people who still wear Hijabs , don't eat pork or drink etc just because they WERE Muslims. Now it has become a part of them).

What is a 'religion' and equally relevant...What is 'religious devotion' or passion?

The fact that a religion have followers who sustains and exports it mean its adherents believes in the moral righteousness and superiority of their religion over other considerations. The methods of sustaining and exporting it are for a different discussion, of course. It also means that human beings have a NATURAL desire to attach themselves to a cause that is higher than their basic human needs such as hunger, thirst, and physical comforts, even though those basic needs usually take higher priority in the immediate moments in daily life.

The reason why Islam excelled in a believer's mind whereas communism failed is because Islam, typical of religions, offers the believer something other than this life. Marxism can only offers the believer political power in this life, all the striving in this life ends at death with no acknowledgement and rewards from any higher power. Islam offers the believer ethereal rewards for the struggles and accomplishments when his material body finally failed him. In this, Marxism cannot compete with Islam and communist countries bled believers faster than Islam lost followers through apostasy.

The article's author is not blind to the reality that political Islam is no different than religious Islam precisely because of the reality that Islam regulate so much minutae of its believers' lives. The Vatican does not tell Catholics, no matter how devout, on which hand to use to clean one's self after defecation. Not even devout communists would go that far. So what this mean is that EVERYTHING in the believer's life is supposed to be assessed on how 'Islamic' they are, from impersonal politics to personal toiletry. It demands the believer to wear his religion on his sleeve and to take great offense at any criticism at his devotion.

When I played tourist in East Berlin, my Levi's jean is itself an attractant to where I came from and a desirable object to possess. However, I cannot wave the Catholic crucifix in front of a Muslim and expect the same reaction. If anything, if the Muslim does not openly express contempt, it is because he is too polite to do so, not because he does not feel such contempt.

The 'War On Terror' is a technical response to a technical challenge -- to the West. Personally, I do not find the need to regulate how I clean myself after the toilet, which foot first am I to enter a home, who am I to marry, or how to express my religious devotion, ie prays X times a day, to be an attractive thing. Such degree of regulation is offensive to me to the same degree that criticism of Islamic devotion is offensive to a Muslim.

For those of us in the notional West, Islam should be resisted in ways other than the technical method -- combat -- in the 'War On Terror'. Islam should also be resisted in the political, ideological, and social arenas. We should not make any distinctions between 'political Islam' and 'religious Islam' precisely because Islam itself demands so much intrusions into a person's life.

 

[AUz]

For those of us in the notional West, Islam should be resisted in ways other than the technical method -- combat -- in the 'War On Terror'. Islam should also be resisted in the political, ideological, and social arenas. We should not make any distinctions between 'political Islam' and 'religious Islam' precisely because Islam itself demands so much intrusions into a person's life.

Thank you for the post, sir.

So how will you (or plan to) resist Islam, which is "THE strongest ideological force of human history" as the author put it (another scare tactic or he actually meant it? ) ?

There are 45 million to 60 million Muslims in the 'West' and you know that this number is not insignificant by any means. As the time passes, Muslims in West will get more buying power, more political power (new voting block), more awareness of laws etc...so how do you think one should "resist" Islam on ideological, political, and social arena as you put it? Secondly, are you talking about resisting Islam in West only OR on the global level even in Islamic countries? If so, then doesn't it give weight-age to Islamic Fundamentalist's point that West is at war with Islam?

One last thing I've always wondered as someone living in the West (not thinking as a nominal Muslim right now) : So lets say we Westerners need to "stop" Islam blah blah...how would we do it? I mean, Islam is an ideological force...to counter it, we need something like it. But west doesn't have any counter. Christianity isn't good enough to take on Islam..Democracy will actually help Islam to grow further. Islam is probably most favorable religion to capitalism/free market (Muhammad was a trader himself) ...so what next? In the great struggle against communism, West had an equal--Capitalism. What 'equal counter' does West has against Islam?

======================================

Lastly, I don't believe that this West vs Islam need to go on. Both can go hand in hand...but since I'm a guy educated in US and who is from a Muslim background, I might not be able to see things from your perspective. And this is O.K. I hope you'll give your insights on the rest of the post though...

 

[Chak Bamu]

There is none.

Talk on topic/OP...

You don't know what i was talking about, so the best option for you is to chill and not discuss it. Perhaps some other day.

Show me a mosque from before Mohamed was born.

Ka'ba. The Grand Mosque in Makkah. There you go

PS. Just saw that Argus has already answered that. Sorry for repetition.