2013 : West, Islam , and Global War on Terror!

[AUz]

An article posted/discussed in an American military forum filled with retired American service men..

=================================================================

Global War on Terror and West's relation to Islam.

Well, Islam is probably the strongest ideological force humankind has ever seen. Islam is not like any other religion. Islam is a VERY , VERY strong ideology that has religious , political , social , economic , spiritual , military ,and legalistic aspects to it. History of mankind has NEVER seen such a solid and consistent ideology. Whereever Islam went , it ingrained itself in the soil of that land (the only exception is Spain where Muslims ruled 800 years but then driven back. Balkans were just under Turkish rule but never had any significant Muslim presence or cultural influence). Graham E. Fuller in his book , "A world without Islam" , writes that Islam has got great vitality and it is culturally, economically and socially very strong. People used to "mentally-m*sterbate" that Islam thrives in poorer countries etc but in the last century , this myth has been practically debunked now. Countries like Turkey , Malaysia , Indonesia , Saudi Arabia , Qatar , Kuwait etc etc are very rich and prosperous (and Western in case of Turkey) but yet , Islam not only survive but it THRIVES in these lands. Unlike Christianity , which is a dead religion now in the West, Islam is a very influential religion. Wherever it exists , its followers practice it. Even the Muslim communities in the Western world take Islam seriously and practice and live by their faith.

Islam "self-grow" itself by Islamic finance. Islamic banking is now over a trillion dollar industry and growing. Islamic halal industry is worth $2.5 trillion and growing. Islam practically holds a HUGE chunk of geographic area (~ 30,000,000 sq. kilometers) and has significant presence in Western China , India , Russia , Europe etc .Islam is literally present in EVERY SINGLE NATION ON EARTH!. Now Islam is moving to the "New World" for the first time. Islam also has one of the largest, most comprehensive law-code in the history of mankind. ~ 1.8-2.2 billion people all around the world get influenced by Islamic Shari'ah (directly or indirectly) in one way or the other.

Islam presents itself as a "total" ideology covering all aspects of life, it gives it's followers a sense of a shared culture and brotherhood, and a sense of emptiness to those who begin to doubt it.Islam legislates almost EVERYTHING of a human being. It controls them completely. From food to sex ...from marriage to divorce..from personal cleanness to manners of using toilet etc. Islam plays role in everything and this make its followers to start recognizing with Islam. Islam just ingrains itself in the mind of follower and even if a follower leave Islam , he/she won't come out of it for ever! (I know many such people who still wear Hijabs , don't eat pork or drink etc just because they WERE Muslims. Now it has become a part of them).

Also , Islam has a VERY strong culture. Muslim girls would not date a "non-Muslim" guy and their first preference will always be to look for a "Muslim" boy (experience from high school/college lol). Even if Muslim girls have sex , kissing , dating etc with "non-Muslim" guys , they will very rarely marry them. They always marry within their community and produce their offsprings under the strong Islamic umbrella. (Why is he talking about this? )

All these facts make Islam , I think , THE STRONGEST religion/ideology on the planet. It just doesn't go down. French ripped their ****s off to convert Algerians but after hundred years of colonialism , 99.3% of Algerians were still Muslims. . All this show that , as Karen Armstrong put it , Islam just went stronger , stronger , stronger and stronger from the day Muhammad started it.

Also , about 60% -70% of Muslims worldwide are people who are "young" and hence they'll be getting into their "productive age" and will be reproducing in coming years. Which means ...surprise...Islam will grow even larger! Above that , Islam is a self-perpetuating ideology that starts growing when it goes to a new place. Islam conquered many nations , and instead of despising it , those nations started spreading Islam even further!!!!

Today, Islam is only expanding ...politically (Arab Spring) , culturally , economically , religiously , legally, militarily etc etc and it looks unstoppable ...just like it has been over the centuries!!!!

Now many people (both in the West and Muslim world) see the ongoing Global War on Terror as a conflict between "West vs Islam". I think that in order to win this war, West must dispel this message. Radical Islam (Terrorist Muslims in other words) make up just about 0.00093% of total Islam. So, we must make that distinction first. Many Muslims are conservative, anti-West , and what not--but they are "good people" in a sense that they would NEVER kill any Westerner or would harm any Western interests. The "radicals" who actively fight Westerners etc are less than 1% of total Muslim population.So the message from our leaders must be clear. We are not here to take on Islam. We are here to take on radicals that harm Muslims more than anybody else.

United States must actively work to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This is the biggest 'issue' between West and Muslim world. We can not neglect this. We must not neglect this. Islam is a global phenomenon--Even if 3% of Islam gets radical or become 'out of control' , this world would slip into utter chaos and global economy would fell like a pack of cards.

How you do think we can win war on terror? Remember, it can't be won by using conventional force alone. Radical Islam employs advance Asymmetric Warfare Mode. Force alone will actually accelerate our defeat in this war. If 0.00093% radical Islam can cause THIS much trouble, I can't imagine what it would be if, God forbid, even 3% of Islam becomes "actively radical against West" ...This would lead a major global war. This war might end in American military victory but will harm our interests. Muslims have nothing to lose here, but we have everything to lose.

So how should we deal with the situation?

I think we must support moderate forces in Islamic World. We must heavily support science and technology in the Muslim world. Education, economic build-up , and political stability are other factors too. We must also dispel this perception that we interfere in Islamic Countries and we oppress the Muslims. We must promote democracy in the Muslim world, even if it brings Muslim Brotherhood in the power (Which aren't radical terrorists as some fox news pundits might want us to believe). Over-all, United States is here to stay..Islamic World is here to stay...We must learn to live together with mutual respect and co-operation.

----------------------------------------------

This article makes sense over-all, keeping in mind that it is coming from "Americans"..Atleast this dude does a bit better job than Faux News 'experts' of "Islam"...

What is your say?

 

[FaujHistorian]

Thanks for sharing.

This obviously has lots of generalities and stereotypes.

Will respond in detail later.

 

[Kompromat]

Mohammed [SAW] "started" Islam, how ignorant can you get?

 

[Contrarian]

Mohammed [SAW] "started" Islam, how ignorant can you get?

Islam claims to have started with the first man, but then all the other religions claim this as well.

So for all intents and purposes, Islam was started by Mohammed.

 

[AUz]

Mohammed [SAW] "started" Islam, how ignorant can you get?

Islam claims to have started with the first man, but then all the other religions claim this as well.

So for all intents and purposes, Islam was started by Mohammed.

Gentlemen, lets reply on topic and don't discuss theology...

 

[Kompromat]

Gentlemen, lets reply on topic and don't discuss theology...

@Contrarian You still require an answer for your query?

 

[Mootaz-khelifi]

nice an opened minded american me as a Tunisian and Muslim i have no problems with christian i don't hate them i don't want to kill them

 

[Contrarian]

Nope. Lets remain on topic.

 

[livingdead]

Has this been written by a local pdf dude(judging from language).

 

[Chak Bamu]

It would be interesting to read about Yvonne Ridley's conversion to Islam. That episode touches on many of these themes.

Ordinary Muslims have no enmity with any religion, but there exists a seige mentality which gets exploited sometimes. This mentality unfortunately exhibits itself in Pakistan more than other Muslim countries. That is just our history and heritage since 1857. Palestinians have valid greivances and have a bone to pick with Israel and USA. Many Arabs and other Muslims identify with their cause. This one issue has done more to damage relations with 'The West' than any other.

Muslims do in fact identify very strongly with their religion because of some factors:

1. Muslims do not usually confuse themselves by choosing between science or religion. For most of us it is not an either / or choice.

2. Our social structure gives Mosque an important place and it acts an an anchor in many social and religious interactions.

3. Though Muslims have been trying to grapple with many issues for the past century or so, our response has not been apathy or indifference. This leads to entrenched positions sometimes and mutual acrimony (as you might see here before long), but we generally do not discard religion in order to keep ourselves from the necessity of confronting these issues. These issues often revolve around secularism and position of religion within state, sectarianism, Nationalism, practice of religion around the globe, and dealing with discrimination, etc... This is not an exhaustive list of course. But just to convey an idea.

4. The concept of Ummah still thrives despite multiple attempts at undermining it from various sides. This is a very expansive topic and I do not have the stamina to expand on it just yet. May be later.

I would like to know how @haviZsultan would contribute on this issue. Havi?

 

[Peregrine]

Its a commendable piece of writing. Thank you for posting it.

 

[haviZsultan]

It would be interesting to read about Yvonne Ridley's conversion to Islam. That episode touches on many of these themes.

Ordinary Muslims have no enmity with any religion, but there exists a seige mentality which gets exploited sometimes. This mentality unfortunately exhibits itself in Pakistan more than other Muslim countries. That is just our history and heritage since 1857. Palestinians have valid greivances and have a bone to pick with Israel and USA. Many Arabs and other Muslims identify with their cause. This one issue has done more to damage relations with 'The West' than any other.

Muslims do in fact identify very strongly with their religion because of some factors:

1. Muslims do not usually confuse themselves by choosing between science or religion. For most of us it is not an either / or choice.

2. Our social structure gives Mosque an important place and it acts an an anchor in many social and religious interactions.

3. Though Muslims have been trying to grapple with many issues for the past century or so, our response has not been apathy or indifference. This leads to entrenched positions sometimes and mutual acrimony (as you might see here before long), but we generally do not discard religion in order to keep ourselves from the necessity of confronting these issues. These issues often revolve around secularism and position of religion within state, sectarianism, Nationalism, practice of religion around the globe, and dealing with discrimination, etc... This is not an exhaustive list of course. But just to convey an idea.

4. The concept of Ummah still thrives despite multiple attempts at undermining it from various sides. This is a very expansive topic and I do not have the stamina to expand on it just yet. May be later.

I would like to know how @haviZsultan would contribute on this issue. Havi?

Frankly each time I contribute I talk about the framing of Pakistanis (Muslim youth) in the west and no one seems to like my contributions which are ignored. When someone (it was fauj) yesterday doubted my patriotism and said something along these lines I made a response so emotional, so strong about how the agencies/soldiers not only in the west go about their work no one even gave a damn about the post. Not one thank for a huge 1000 word post.

I am staunchly against American policy but at the same time for their secular values and democratic culture. The latter should make me pro-American but the things I saw there have made me seriously distrust them. What do you want me to say other than the obvious fact that Americans need to rectify their negative attitude and dirty minds to stop thinking of Pakistan in their own terms but think from Pakistan's shoes once.

Fauj was going on about mullahs wanting to attack Pakistan army and that was why I promoted a narrative staunchly opposed to a relationship with the US. I took offence and said opposing US policy has nothing to do with wanting to bomb them.

It will be said again because America is Allah here and I will take offense again. Don't know what to say. I stated already how their policy towards us was wrong and how they treated India better. I don't want my nationalism doubted when I live and die under the flag. I have said what I say and it is what Clemenceau says too and have refused to back down on it.

Also I stopped thinking in context of Muslims against so and so when I was 15. I am secular. Just admire Ibn Rushd and other true Muslim theologians and philosophers of ancient times who paved the way for secularism.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Off topic -
@haviZsultan, what post are you referring to? I would like to read it, if only you would respond with a link use PM, if you will. I can not use it yet.

Fauj is a certain way and his demeanor makes one wonder about who, how, and why of him being made a TT (Jr.)? Do not be too upset. I enjoy abuse coming from him. It is quite comical.

I wrote my post because this is what I strongly feel about. Islam is my highest identity choice. My activism started from Bosnian genocide in 1993 while I was a student in USA on the basis of Humanity and Ummah feelings. Something has to get one started, and for me that was the start. Having spent a number of years in USA, I am particularly sensitive about issues relating to global Islam. Being an internationalist was just natural then. No AQ, no 9/11, no WOT. It was different then and there were no negative conotations to being an Islamist.

What can one call someone who focuses on political process and not extremism or militancy? Now it is hard to establish fine and important distinctions when just one word, "Taliban" or "beardo" or other such derogatory name can be taken to cover entire spectrum of thought. That is just shameful and this is the real loss from WOT. Reasonable people willing to participate in constitutional political process get demeaned and sidelined like this. Extreme nationalists display such ignorance and apathy that one wonders if it is at all possible to talk to such people? Nationalism itself has such a deplorable record that unless it is made subservient to some higher philosophy, it can easily become a destrutive force. This philosophy makes normal and reasonable people become demons in the name of a country.

I am skeptical of any good coming out of nationalism by itself. There is no humanity in it.

I see future in moderate or mild Islamism that focuses on family values and moral living as a conscious individual choice. This is how Sufis work: focus on individual piety without being judgemental.

PS> I know about thousand+ word post going to waste. On the secularism thread you started, I had a really long response to one of your posts, but then thought about its relevance and decided to not post it.

 

[Azazel]

An article posted/discussed in an American military forum filled with retired American service men..

=================================================================

Global War on Terror and West's relation to Islam.

Well, Islam is probably the strongest ideological force humankind has ever seen. Islam is not like any other religion. Islam is a VERY , VERY strong ideology that has religious , political , social , economic , spiritual , military ,and legalistic aspects to it. History of mankind has NEVER seen such a solid and consistent ideology. Whereever Islam went , it ingrained itself in the soil of that land (the only exception is Spain where Muslims ruled 800 years but then driven back. Balkans were just under Turkish rule but never had any significant Muslim presence or cultural influence). Graham E. Fuller in his book , "A world without Islam" , writes that Islam has got great vitality and it is culturally, economically and socially very strong. People used to "mentally-m*sterbate" that Islam thrives in poorer countries etc but in the last century , this myth has been practically debunked now. Countries like Turkey , Malaysia , Indonesia , Saudi Arabia , Qatar , Kuwait etc etc are very rich and prosperous (and Western in case of Turkey) but yet , Islam not only survive but it THRIVES in these lands. Unlike Christianity , which is a dead religion now in the West, Islam is a very influential religion. Wherever it exists , its followers practice it. Even the Muslim communities in the Western world take Islam seriously and practice and live by their faith.

Islam "self-grow" itself by Islamic finance. Islamic banking is now over a trillion dollar industry and growing. Islamic halal industry is worth $2.5 trillion and growing. Islam practically holds a HUGE chunk of geographic area (~ 30,000,000 sq. kilometers) and has significant presence in Western China , India , Russia , Europe etc .Islam is literally present in EVERY SINGLE NATION ON EARTH!. Now Islam is moving to the "New World" for the first time. Islam also has one of the largest, most comprehensive law-code in the history of mankind. ~ 1.8-2.2 billion people all around the world get influenced by Islamic Shari'ah (directly or indirectly) in one way or the other.

Islam presents itself as a "total" ideology covering all aspects of life, it gives it's followers a sense of a shared culture and brotherhood, and a sense of emptiness to those who begin to doubt it.Islam legislates almost EVERYTHING of a human being. It controls them completely. From food to sex ...from marriage to divorce..from personal cleanness to manners of using toilet etc. Islam plays role in everything and this make its followers to start recognizing with Islam. Islam just ingrains itself in the mind of follower and even if a follower leave Islam , he/she won't come out of it for ever! (I know many such people who still wear Hijabs , don't eat pork or drink etc just because they WERE Muslims. Now it has become a part of them).

Also , Islam has a VERY strong culture. Muslim girls would not date a "non-Muslim" guy and their first preference will always be to look for a "Muslim" boy (experience from high school/college lol). Even if Muslim girls have sex , kissing , dating etc with "non-Muslim" guys , they will very rarely marry them. They always marry within their community and produce their offsprings under the strong Islamic umbrella. (Why is he talking about this? )

All these facts make Islam , I think , THE STRONGEST religion/ideology on the planet. It just doesn't go down. French ripped their ****s off to convert Algerians but after hundred years of colonialism , 99.3% of Algerians were still Muslims. . All this show that , as Karen Armstrong put it , Islam just went stronger , stronger , stronger and stronger from the day Muhammad started it.

Also , about 60% -70% of Muslims worldwide are people who are "young" and hence they'll be getting into their "productive age" and will be reproducing in coming years. Which means ...surprise...Islam will grow even larger! Above that , Islam is a self-perpetuating ideology that starts growing when it goes to a new place. Islam conquered many nations , and instead of despising it , those nations started spreading Islam even further!!!!

Today, Islam is only expanding ...politically (Arab Spring) , culturally , economically , religiously , legally, militarily etc etc and it looks unstoppable ...just like it has been over the centuries!!!!

Now many people (both in the West and Muslim world) see the ongoing Global War on Terror as a conflict between "West vs Islam". I think that in order to win this war, West must dispel this message. Radical Islam (Terrorist Muslims in other words) make up just about 0.00093% of total Islam. So, we must make that distinction first. Many Muslims are conservative, anti-West , and what not--but they are "good people" in a sense that they would NEVER kill any Westerner or would harm any Western interests. The "radicals" who actively fight Westerners etc are less than 1% of total Muslim population.So the message from our leaders must be clear. We are not here to take on Islam. We are here to take on radicals that harm Muslims more than anybody else.

United States must actively work to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This is the biggest 'issue' between West and Muslim world. We can not neglect this. We must not neglect this. Islam is a global phenomenon--Even if 3% of Islam gets radical or become 'out of control' , this world would slip into utter chaos and global economy would fell like a pack of cards.

How you do think we can win war on terror? Remember, it can't be won by using conventional force alone. Radical Islam employs advance Asymmetric Warfare Mode. Force alone will actually accelerate our defeat in this war. If 0.00093% radical Islam can cause THIS much trouble, I can't imagine what it would be if, God forbid, even 3% of Islam becomes "actively radical against West" ...This would lead a major global war. This war might end in American military victory but will harm our interests. Muslims have nothing to lose here, but we have everything to lose.

So how should we deal with the situation?

I think we must support moderate forces in Islamic World. We must heavily support science and technology in the Muslim world. Education, economic build-up , and political stability are other factors too. We must also dispel this perception that we interfere in Islamic Countries and we oppress the Muslims. We must promote democracy in the Muslim world, even if it brings Muslim Brotherhood in the power (Which aren't radical terrorists as some fox news pundits might want us to believe). Over-all, United States is here to stay..Islamic World is here to stay...We must learn to live together with mutual respect and co-operation.

----------------------------------------------

This article makes sense over-all, keeping in mind that it is coming from "Americans"..Atleast this dude does a bit better job than Faux News 'experts' of "Islam"...

What is your say?

Looks like an article written from the perspective of an "outsider".Authors knowledge of the subject seems to be very shallow and lacks any clear understanding of the complex dynamics of Muslim world.

 

[AUz]

Looks like an article written from the perspective of an "outsider".Authors knowledge of the subject seems to be very shallow and lacks any clear understanding of the complex dynamics of Muslim world.

Explain how?

Has this been written by a local pdf dude(judging from language).

Probably some indian?

indians like to spew hate and propaganda against Islam/Muslims in other western forums, yahoo comments etc...

And offcourse, their username usually reads "Mike", "John" , and "David" etc