19 true things US generals can't say in public about the Afghan war

[The enlightened]

How many AQ leaders surrendered after OBL'S death? Did the TTP stop finding individuals to fill the leadership role when Nek MOhammed, Abdullah Mehsud, Abdullah Mehsud etc. were killed? The facts refute your argument.

Al-Qaida's backbone has been broken.
Most of their top leaders are now in hell,
there hasnt been a single attack on american soil since 9/11
and they are killing more of the useless terror brigades everyday
though they have paid a heavy price for it
I would call it a victory

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

From an Indian perspective, all that you are saying, even if true is all within the family (India) like Balochistan.. Afghan Mujahid idiots coming in to try and do the same is not the same..

You wanted a flippant answer.. You got one ....

I was not being 'flippant' - Vinod was decrying the 'rape and murder of women and children', I merely pointed out to him that the 'Indian Army cowards' were resorting to the same. Hopefully he, and you, condemn the 'cowardly Indian Army soldiers' with the same gusto.

And Kashmir, unlike Baluchistan, is internationally recognized as disputed, and therefore not 'part of the Indian family' - but even if it was 'part of the Indian family', adding 'incestual rape' to the IA raping and murdering Kashmiris only makes the actions of the Indian Army worse.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Al-Qaida's backbone has been broken.
Most of their top leaders are now in hell,

Primarily because of targeted intelligence and military operations (most by Pakistan or with Pakistani assistance) against AQ operational members, and not because of obl's death or the Afghan invasion and occupation.

 

[Vinod2070]

And did they succeed in ensuring the communist regime was strengthened? No. .

The part about 'winning every battle' is not true - there are plenty of battles the Soviets lost, though they did win the overall battles. The Soviets also lost pretty badly in th majority of the battles they engaged in directly with Pakistani forces, in the air and on the ground - these were very infrequent of course. But whatever the cause behind the withdrawal, the fact is that Soviets were denied their goal of leaving behind a strong communist regime.

The Afghan won in the sense that they forced the Soviets out without the Soviets achieving their goals for a strong communist regime. The Afghan failed in that they were not able to unite after defeating the Soviets and build their nation.

Well, that they won all battles is mentioned in several scholarly articles. Probably they mean all battles above a certain threshold (like brigade level).

Pakistan army or air force was a minor player. Let's not digress.

The campaign turned into a hot part of the cold war. And the eventual winner of the cold war won here.

Afghans were used as proxies and discarded as soon as their use was over. Like a diaper.

Remember the statement by a US official:

In the words of Zbigniew Brzezinski, "What was more important in the world view of history? The Taliban or the fall of the Soviet Empire? A few stirred-up Muslims or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the Cold War?

So the Afghans were no more than a tool in the war of Superpowers.

And tools are never the winners.

That is for Afghan to decide. My guess is that they would resist another Soviet occupation again, despite knowing the costs.

It won't matter now as it didn't then. If they don't have a powerful backer, they would be crushed in days.

How many AQ leaders surrendered after OBL'S death? Did the TTP stop finding individuals to fill the leadership role when Nek MOhammed, Abdullah Mehsud, Abdullah Mehsud etc. were killed? The facts refute your argument.

AQ's back is broken now. It is hardly in a position to mount attacks overseas.

The real impact will be on wannabe terrorists who would get inspired by AQ. It must already be, no attacks on USA and Western countries.

Even your own country is safer because that cowardly rat is dead in his fil.thy cave.

 

[The enlightened]

Primarily because of targeted intelligence and military operations (most by Pakistan or with Pakistani assistance) against AQ operational members, and not because of obl's death or the Afghan invasion and occupation.

WHAAAAT
Afghan war is the reason that is the reason these terrorists have been killed
Had this war not happened
these terrorists would be still operating freely under a government,
which gave them freedom,liberty and supported those organizations,
heck,
it itself was a terrorist organization.

 

[Vinod2070]

I was not being 'flippant' - Vinod was decrying the 'rape and murder of women and children', I merely pointed out to him that the 'Indian Army cowards' were resorting to the same. Hopefully he, and you, condemn the 'cowardly Indian Army soldiers' with the same gusto.

And Kashmir, unlike Baluchistan, is internationally recognized as disputed, and therefore not 'part of the Indian family' - but even if it was 'part of the Indian family', adding 'incestual rape' to the IA raping and murdering Kashmiris only makes the actions of the Indian Army worse.

So now the Kashmir discussion is fine?

Is it OK for your "holy Islamic warriors" to the "same"?

So you don't really mind the acts, only that they should be done by Pakistani terrorists?

stick to the topic- Vinod decided to drag in rape and murder in Kashmir

Not really. It was started by your countryman. I just responded.

Hey we will love to see Indian Army fighting the Afghan warriors there, at least we will have some fun then, probably a live movie .........

 

[Vinod2070]

WHAAAAT
Afghan war is the reason that is the reason these terrorists have been killed
Had this war not happened
these terrorists would be still operating freely under a government,
which gave them freedom,liberty and supported those organizations,
heck,
it itself was a terrorist organization.

Pakistan has played a double role throughout. And this is widely acknowledged by almost all, even Pakistan's erstwhile die hard supporters in USA.

If Pakistan could have done it by its "intelligence", the WOT won't be required.

Almost all the terrorists decided to take sanctuary in Pakistan. Some of them were produced whenever the occasion demanded.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

So now the Kashmir discussion is fine?

You raised the whole 'Afghan Mujahideen raping and murdering in Kashmir' canard, not me.

Is it OK for your "holy Islamic warriors" to the "same"?

I never said it was OK for anyone to do it, but then I was not the one who raised the issue of 'murdering and raping women and children in Kashmir' - you chose to highlight only one side that committed atrocities, and left out the Indian Army 'cowards', I merely pointed out that 'Indian Army cowards had also raped and murdered innocent women and children'.

So you don't really mind the acts, only that they should be done by Pakistani terrorists?

Please point where I have suggested any such thing - if you can't, proceed with condemning the 'Indian Army cowards raping and murdering innocent men, women and children in Kashmir' with the same gusto you had in condemning the 'Afghan Mujahideen' for the same crimes.

Not really. It was started by your countryman. I just responded.

He was responding to a claim of the 'Indian military being better than the superpowers' and referring to the Afghans fighting the IA in Afghanistan, if Indian forces were ever deployed there.

---------- Post added at 02:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:22 PM ----------

WHAAAAT
Afghan war is the reason that is the reason these terrorists have been killed
Had this war not happened

... the Taliban would have likely been convinced to hand over OBL for a trial in a mutually acceptable third country, and act against AQ and other such groups in exchange for international legitimacy and aid, and the world would have therefore avoided hundreds of thousands of innocents dead across three nations.

these terrorists would be still operating freely under a government,
which gave them freedom,liberty and supported those organizations,
heck,
it itself was a terrorist organization.

The Taliban were no more terrorists than the NA warlords that the US installed into power after the Afghan invasion - both sides committed atrocities on ethnic and religious groups and were corrupt and dabbled in the drug trade, gun running and smuggling to finance their fiefdoms and operations.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

If Pakistan could have done it by its "intelligence", the WOT won't be required.

Pakistan did help achieve the current results we see against AQ through its 'intelligence and military operations', and the absence of a "WoT' would have in fact made it even easier for Pakistan to do so, and offer even better results, since Pakistan would not have also been simultaneously dealing with a vicious religious insurgency of its own, and a spike in sympathy for the religious extremists and AQ, catalyzed by the US invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Almost all the terrorists decided to take sanctuary in Pakistan. Some of them were produced whenever the occasion demanded.

Terrorists were neutralized whenever they were found/hunted down, including most of the top level leadership at the time, by Pakistan.

That these people hid in Pakistan was a result of the US invasion of Afghanistan, which drove them into Pakistan, where they were hunted down by Pakistan.

The rest of your comment about 'produced when the occasion demanded' is just paranoid conspiracy theory borne out of an obsession to disparage Pakistan on every issue.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Disclaimer.. Since the admin team is continuing the discussion (irrespective of who started it), I am assuming its ok to continue as well about Kashmir in a thread about US in Afghanistan.. So hoping to not get an infraction..

The Admin team is merely responding to the 'raping and murdering women and children' canard raised by Vinod. Beyond that limited argument, there has been no attempt by the Admin team to initiate a discussion on Kashmir, or to continue it.

A very simple point was raised in response to Vinod arguing that 'Cowardly Afghan Mujahideen raped and murdered men, women and children', but pointing out that the 'Cowardly Indian Army also raped and murdered men, women and children' and should therefore be equally condemned, which neither of you has chosen to do so far, suggesting perhaps that you find the 'raping and murdering of innocent men, women and children' acceptable, when the victims are Muslims and the perpetrators an occupying Indian military that is primarily Hindu and Sikh.

The rest of your post is just nonsense mean to avoid answering the question raised above and hijack the thread into a discussing the entire history of Pakistani and Indian military and security operations, and is therefore deleted, as were the posts of Vinod and others attempting to do the same earlier.

Cheers

 

[pmukherjee]

I had commented that there is a very high degree of likelihood that we find Afghan terrorists back in Kashmir after the Americans leave like they came/were sent after the Soviets had left.. It is almost a certainty. What remains to be seen is how different the two groups are, separated by more than 20 years, they are generations apart. For the time being, let us leave the rape and murder part aside. From a strictly military/operational stand point, the earlier lot, referred to as the Mujaheddin since they had fought the Russians, were a very tough breed. Physically very tough, tactically sound, they came to die in Kashmir. But they were difficult to kill. Almost all encounters where these guys died also resulted in casualties of own troops. They were handicapped by their total unfamiliarity with the local terrain and local customs. For this, they depended on the locals who let them down mostly. They were physically very different from the Kashmiris, different food habits, different language, they even smelt different. They stood out like sore thumbs. kashmir is heavily populated unlike Afghanistan. It is impossible for an Afghan to hide in a kashmiri village for any length of time and avoid detection. It was far easier for them to hide on the upper reaches of the Pir Panjal ranges but had to soon come down to the villages due to logistical needs. The IA did not use artillery or air power. Helicopters were rarely used, gunships were never used. We had purely infantry operations. Once contact was established, the Mujaheddin were pursued till they were eliminated. Operations continued day and night without pause for bad weather. They were eliminated all right but we too suffered casualties. They were worthy fighters. Had these guys enrolled in the Afghan Army, Afghanistan today would have been a very secure nation. The Mujaheddin came, some went back but mostly they died in the Valley. Then they stopped coming. Instead, we had Punjabi speaking terrorists arriving in kashmir. That goes on till this day.
One is waiting to see if the new generation of fighters from Afghanistan will be as good as their elders were 20 years ago. By 'good', I mean purely from a military point of view, as far as fighting acumen goes. A fight is interesting only if the opponent is worth his salt. The earlier lot was.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Karan:

The question is simple enough - don't troll and hijack the thread if you don't want to answer it and wish to maintain double standards when it comes to the atrocities (rape and murder of men, women and children in Kashmir) by 'cowardly Indian Army Soldiers'.

As is pretty clear from the timeline and content of posts on this thread, I was not the one to raise this argument of 'rape and murder in Kashmir' - your fellow Pakistan obsessed Indian compatriot Vinod was - I merely showed him the other side of the coin with respect to his 'rape and murder of innocents in Kashmir' rant. You chose to butt in and go off on another tangent and pretend like the 'Admin team started the discussion on Kashmir'. Stop lying and distorting to hide the crimes of the IA and avoid condemning them.

So either answer the question on whether 'rape and murder of men, women and children by cowardly Indian troops in Kashmir is just as condemnable as the rape and murder of men, women and children by Afghan mujahideen' or shut up and stick to the topic.

 

[foxbat]

Karan:

The question is simple enough - don't troll and hijack the thread if you don't want to answer it and wish to maintain double standards when it comes to the atrocities (rape and murder of men, women and children in Kashmir) by 'cowardly Indian Army Soldiers'.

As is pretty clear from the timeline and content of posts on this thread, I was not the one to raise this argument of 'rape and murder in Kashmir' - your fellow Pakistan obsessed Indian compatriot Vinod was - I merely showed him the other side of the coin with respect to his 'rape and murder of innocents in Kashmir' rant. You chose to butt in and go off on another tangent and pretend like the 'Admin team started the discussion on Kashmir'. Stop lying and distorting to hide the crimes of the IA and avoid condemning them.

So either answer the question on whether 'rape and murder of men, women and children by cowardly Indian troops in Kashmir is just as condemnable as the rape and murder of men, women and children by Afghan mujahideen' or shut up and stick to the topic.

Its a little nonsensical comparison really..rape and murder of men (hope only murder), women and children by anyone is as condemnable.. However the 2 cases are different in reasons and reaction. The case of bad apples in Indian army (as Karan mentioned before the post was deleted) doing it, is a criminal case in the Indian civilian/military judicial system and the people responsible are tried and punished if found guilty. Unless you have some proof that this is indeed a planned strategy of Indian Army to murder and rape, its a little stupid to blame the institution for the act of individuals. Just like in Pakistan, Musharraf is being tried for the extra judicial killings he ordered in Balochistan.. I dont see any one in Pakistan condemning the whole Pakistan Army and govt for the killings in Balochistan now.. Do you?

On the other hand, Afghan mujahids coming in and doing the same in Kashmir is mostly a case of cross border terrorism where these actions are more of a side effect of an over all plan of these jehadi outfits (mostly in past sponsored by Pakistan) to keep Kashmir on the boil to pressurize India. And the treatment (apart for condemning it ) is different here. Some of that treatment (for the actual terrrorists) we are seeing in the form of encounters and termination of these mujahids in COIN operation in Kashmir. The treatment for Pakistani state (as we believe these terrorists are sponsored by Pakistan) is visible in Afghanistan where India is cosying up to the ISAF backed Afghan govt to continuously pressurize Pakistani govt..The results of this approach are pretty visible and positive from where I look..

 

[Vinod2070]

You raised the whole 'Afghan Mujahideen raping and murdering in Kashmir' canard, not me.

I never said it was OK for anyone to do it, but then I was not the one who raised the issue of 'murdering and raping women and children in Kashmir' - you chose to highlight only one side that committed atrocities, and left out the Indian Army 'cowards', I merely pointed out that 'Indian Army cowards had also raped and murdered innocent women and children'.

First of all, despite the PTV (and other) propaganda that many may have been raised on, and that they may have believed as the Gospel truth, there is no official policy to persecute our own people.

Any excesses would be considered a crime by IA and action taken.

Your trying to defend the acts of cross border hardcore terrorists with this excuse is really pathetic.

For an example, many more PA people have been killed by TTP and other Pakistani terrorists. Without provoking the same outrage as the 24 by USA firing.

You simply don't allow outsiders to come and kill and rape your people. That is what the army is for.

Please point where I have suggested any such thing - if you can't, proceed with condemning the 'Indian Army cowards raping and murdering innocent men, women and children in Kashmir' with the same gusto you had in condemning the 'Afghan Mujahideen' for the same crimes.

There is no response to propaganda.

He was responding to a claim of the 'Indian military being better than the superpowers' and referring to the Afghans fighting the IA in Afghanistan, if Indian forces were ever deployed there.

The results in Kashmir prove this. IA handled them better.

Apparently you can claim that even PA handled the TTP better. May be it is because we were fighting them in our own country, not thousands of miles away.

... the Taliban would have likely been convinced to hand over OBL for a trial in a mutually acceptable third country, and act against AQ and other such groups in exchange for international legitimacy and aid, and the world would have therefore avoided hundreds of thousands of innocents dead across three nations.

Only hardcore naive would fall for Taliban doing any such thing. They were terrorists who had perpetrated genocide within Afghanistan and exporting terror outside and giving shelter to the worst terrorists in the world.

You seem to have forgotten their acts or you don't care. Regardless, no one believes in the Taliban doing the right thing except some of you.

The Taliban were no more terrorists than the NA warlords that the US installed into power after the Afghan invasion - both sides committed atrocities on ethnic and religious groups and were corrupt and dabbled in the drug trade, gun running and smuggling to finance their fiefdoms and operations.

And Pakistan was the one that propped up both these sides when they were formed.

Later on you fell out with NA. Its not as if India or any outsiders are responsible for them, they are part of the Af - Pak societal reality. Others are dealing with them as they deal with the military dictatorships in your own country or the Arab dictators.

Just accepting the de-facto situation on the ground.

 

[Developereo]

You simply don't allow outsiders to come and kill and rape your people. That is what the army is for.

Freudian slip?