17 Indian Army soldiers killed in Uri attack

[Spectre]

@Norge Stronk what do you think is strategically the right approach? Let's say you have a drug dealer who has committed capital crimes and is even involved in terrorism.

1. One approach is to cultivate this asset and then leap from him to someone higher up the chain and so on. This might gain you the big fish but can also amount to nothing. The dealer could be just playing you as has happened numerous times and more recently in case of David Coleman Headly

2. You arrest him and incarcerate him immediately and stop the unintended chaos from happening if he had remained free.

It can be extrapolated to not only individuals but countries as well like for eg US despite knowing that a certain country is involved in nuclear proliferation or acts of violence on others can keep mum and continue supporting it in return for bigger prize like for eg better ties with China but in the end it can come to bite back as they only end up strengthening what would be their future adversary and in return lay the seeds for nuclear proliferation, terrorism etc.

Bernie Sanders said the same thing in debates when he criticized Hillary and Kissinger - Law of unintended consequences. @hellfire

 

[scorpionx]

You are conflating Uri attack with Kashmir unrest. Both are independent of each other unless you subscribe to the Pakistani PoV of false flag to let off the steam or local militants taking revenge despite all evidence and statements to the contrary.

Uri was a crime, general unrest in Kashmir due to short sighted policies and institutional negligence at best or design at worst is equally criminal but let's not get into the fallacy of considering two crimes somehow cancel each other.

Regards

Apparently both are off course independent of each other, but the indelible link is not very difficult to miss out. The perpetrators may have come from other side of the border as suggested by the collected evidence so far. But what if suppose we got something in Koshur next time? The emotions are running high through out the nation and it is natural. But lets not push the present government to such a state of nervous collapse where military rationalism gets overwhelmed by political exigency.

Indian social medias, electronic medias are being flooded with responses asking for apt vengeance against Pakistan. But have we thought if the Kashmiris are also sharing the same emotional outburst and sympathies for our military? If not, we lose half of the battle to Pakistan. That is where our leadership have miserably failed again and again. Be it UPA or BJP all have an unenviable record of abysmal apathy of ground realities of Kashmir.

Uri is a crime and the perpetrators must pay for Uri doubtlessly. But please not for a second, assume that both crimes are cancelling each other. We are just trying to identify our archaic blunders so that the psychological balance tilts in favor of us. It does pay rich dividends, my friend.

 

[Hellfire]

@nair @MilSpec

Did you see the post #808?

Passing off a Russian PKM as Indian Vickers Bren LMG?

And then the other day they were laughing at our idiots passing a Mig-21 as a Pakistani AC!!!!

I am tickled to death over the stupidity of subcontinental people on either side

@Waqkz interesting repeat .. from Pakistani side .. of the stupidity of Mig-21 of the other day!

 

[Spectre]

Apparently both are off course independent of each other, but the indelible link is not very difficult to miss out. The perpetrators may have come from other side of the border as suggested by the collected evidence so far. But what if suppose we got something in Koshur next time? The emotions are running high through out the nation and it is natural. But lets not push the present government to such a state of nervous collapse where military rationalism gets overwhelmed by political exigency.

Indian social medias, electronic medias are being flooded with responses asking for apt vengeance against Pakistan. But have we thought if the Kashmiris are also sharing the same emotional outburst and sympathies for our military? If not, we lose half of the battle to Pakistan. That is where our leadership have miserably failed again and again. Be it UPA or BJP all have an unenviable record of abysmal apathy of ground realities of Kashmir.

Uri is a crime and the perpetrators must pay for Uri doubtlessly. But please not for a second, assume that both crimes are cancelling each other. We are just trying to identify our archaic blunders so that the psychological balance tilts in favor of us. It does pay rich dividends, my friend.

If we can do either of things right - correct the historic wrongs in valley or turn completely insensitive and crush out the dissent through brute force - i would be happy in case of former or satisfied in case of latter.

We can't seem to do either of them right - there is our failing. Our national conscience thanks in large part too guys like you and @Joe Shearer does not let us turn dictatorial brutes even in Kashmir but our national apathy specially for NE and Kashmir does not let us feel their pain and suffering. In this we fail both our mainland and outlying regions.

 

[MilSpec]

Another Fail.

That's a PKM

 

[nair]

I am tickled to death over the stupidity of subcontinental people on either side

Better get used to it.....

Enjoy it holidays.....

 

[Joe Shearer]

In early 2016, on PDF I debated about Kashmir issue with couple of Indian members and pointed out that if India respect human rights and give up her claims on Jammu & Kashmir in the light of promises made by their founding fathers, then peace will restore in region and South Asia can turn into a influenced region in World. Poor Indian soldiers are paying price of immoral strategic games played by high elite.
But my Indian counterparts refused this idea and said that they don't care about loss of lives in Kashmir as they are nation of over billion and they will remain in Kashmir no matter how heavy price their soldiers will pay, they claimed that India has full capability to "absorb" military casualties and tensions in Kashmir is now part of history.

Now today, after six months situation is entirely changed. Freedom movement is on full swing, Indian state terrorism is on high and loss of "ONLY" 20 soldiers is not acceptable by those who were happily willing to "absorb" as many casualties as possible just few months ago.

It's hypocrisy of new low limit. They say one thing today, next day they change their stance by 180 degree.

This is why I am glad I am not on PDF on a regular basis any more.

You have a casual discussion with two random people. They assert certain statements. You then nurse those till an appropriate moment comes, and then fling them into the faces of all Indians, and think you have achieved a huge task of uncovering the perfidy of the entire Indian breed.

There are various analogies that come to mind. One is a wish that your last line had tangible shape and form; I could find uses for that.

And this is why I am glad I am not on PDF on a regular basis any more.

Sir

I usually avoid these usual di** measuring contests, but i can tell you from the horse's mouth, a full leading Colonel who actively served in Bajaur and Torkham, he directly blamed Indian support for terrorist elements in Balochistan and FATA.

After interrogation, members of the BRA revealed that they received weapons and money from Indian elements in Afghanistan. This has been forwarded to Americans not once but multiple times. This is what lead to American crackdown on NDS and Indian elements in Afghanistan to placate Pakistani concerns. Talal Bugti travelled to Switzerland on an Indian passport with a false name, this was revealed by Pakistani Minister of Defence. To say that there is no Indian involvement in FATA and especially Balochistan would be an understatement.

I respect your statements, and have to tell you that this is the first time that someone with credibility has come out with something concrete and believable. Earlier, it was possible to dismiss all such claims with contempt; now, I shall not do so, but will listen carefully. That does not amount to an admission, only to a conclusion that serious and responsible people cannot say things without foundation, and that these should be examined very carefully and with open minds.

If we can do either of things right - correct the historic wrongs in valley or turn completely insensitive and crush out the dissent through brute force - i would be happy in case of former or satisfied in case of latter.

We can't seem to do either of them right - there is our failing. Our national conscience thanks in large part too guys like you and @Joe Shearer does not let us turn dictatorial brutes even in Kashmir but our national apathy specially for NE and Kashmir does not let us feel their pain and suffering. In this we fail both our mainland and outlying regions.

Sorry, your choices are false. I continue to believe in my reading of Robert Thompson, that a forceful suppression of armed militancy MUST go hand-in-hand with other measures. We can't just compress the entire doctrine into sound-bytes and hope to prevail.

 

[Spectre]

Sorry, your choices are false. I continue to believe in my reading of Robert Thompson, that a forceful suppression of armed militancy MUST go hand-in-hand with other measures. We can't just compress the entire doctrine into sound-bytes and hope to prevail.

What about unarmed dissent asking from Independence? What of the desire to implement universal Sharia code in Kashmir? What about freedom to produce, sell and consume beef? They are legitimate demands too from Kashmiri Sunni PoV

Halfway measures is never a permanent solution - go full hog or go home.

 

[Joe Shearer]

What about unarmed dissent asking from Independence? What of the desire to implement universal Sharia code in Kashmir? What about freedom to produce, sell and consume beef? They are legitimate demands too from Kashmiri Sunni PoV

Halfway measures is never a permanent solution - go full hog or go home.

1. What is wrong with unarmed dissent asking for independence? Would you object to my unarmed demands and agitation for the right to maintain a Nizam-like harem of 89, and to be paid by the state to do so? What difference does it make, who asks for what?
2. What of the demand for universal Sharia code? That, too, let them ask; our job should be to unleash the pent-up fury of the women of Kashmir against these troglodytes, not to oppose them with our own views; that is pitching one set of opinions against another, hardly an effective rebuttal.
3. I support the right to produce, sell and consume beef. Why did you even raise that issue? On the contrary, banning it is such an appalling act of majoritarian high-handedness.

I really didn't get your point. What is wrong with people asking for this, that or the other? Does that mean that an asking is sufficient legitimacy? and that we must then rush to pass a law to make that ask happen?

What on earth is that totally incomprehensible statement supposed to mean - go full hog or go home?

My reaction to that is,"Don't go home; go see an alienist."

 

[Dazzler]

Another Fail.

That's a PKM

Seems like OFB produces this for Indian army. Interesting


http://aermech.in/pkmpkt-7-62-x-54-mm-general-purpose-machine-gunofbindian-armed-forces/

 

[Spectre]

1. What is wrong with unarmed dissent asking for independence? Would you object to my unarmed demands and agitation for the right to maintain a Nizam-like harem of 89, and to be paid by the state to do so? What difference does it make, who asks for what?
2. What of the demand for universal Sharia code? That, too, let them ask; our job should be to unleash the pent-up fury of the women of Kashmir against these troglodytes, not to oppose them with our own views; that is pitching one set of opinions against another, hardly an effective rebuttal.
3. I support the right to produce, sell and consume beef. Why did you even raise that issue? On the contrary, banning it is such an appalling act of majoritarian high-handedness.

I really didn't get your point. What is wrong with people asking for this, that or the other? Does that mean that an asking is sufficient legitimacy? and that we must then rush to pass a law to make that ask happen?

What on earth is that totally incomprehensible statement supposed to mean - go full hog or go home?

My reaction to that is,"Don't go home; go see an alienist."

Oh Joe, if only you had given it more thought. Each question hits on a particular issue

1. Non violent demand for independence - Majority of those in the valley dont see themselves at part of India, the same way India did not see itself as a part of British Empire. There is certain merit in that - while they extra rights not afforded to other states, they also loose certain liberties and that too more often. Now we had debated before on the size of the grouping where I had myself put exactly the same point just in context of Lajpat Nagar wanting to be independent.
The fact remains there are no set geographical or numerical lines along which demand for independence is justifiable.

I repeat to those who protest - there struggle is no different from other freedom fighters who are lionized throughout the world. While we at power may deign to rubbish them or deflect by offering more goodies thus alleviating the sense of alienation in the end it is upto them to decide what do they want. In any case the current response though lesser in degree can be framed by propagandists to be comparable to Pakistan's in BD. In politics perception is often the reality and what we perceive varies greatly from what Kashmiris perceive.

2. Sharia - Let us face the reality of Islamic world and Islamic society in subcontinent in particular. Outside of liberal dens and urban centers, women are inconsequential. Same can be said about Hindus too but we are not discussing them. Visit any village in UP and finding a woman with an opinion on Sharia is harder than tracing bigfoot.

3. Beef - Again bear in mind that perception is often the reality when you rebut my argument: How would Muslim's feel if we start defacing Kuran? Cow is the equivalent of holy object/being in minds of many Hindus. Since we don't allow defacing Quran in India due to the little law about hurting religious sentiment we similarly dont allow killing of cow or consumtion or sale thereof in many parts of India but not all. How is burning or defacing a book is banned but not killing of a similarly significant being? The point is that we protect minority rights and sentiments be it in Kashmir or Haryana. However when Majority and minority rights directly conflict as in the case of beef consumption in Kashmir where in majority insists on it as opposed to no one sane insisting on burning Quran in Haryana we have problem. By virtue of democratic principles majority should prevail.

The point i am trying to make which is not exclusive to the above three points but all the same indicated by them is that in Kashmiri mind the demands are legitimate and denial of these demands allows them to claim detachment from the republic of India on the basis of infringement of their rights.

In such a scenario choice india faces is binary.

Regards

 

[notorious_eagle]

I respect your statements, and have to tell you that this is the first time that someone with credibility has come out with something concrete and believable. Earlier, it was possible to dismiss all such claims with contempt; now, I shall not do so, but will listen carefully. That does not amount to an admission, only to a conclusion that serious and responsible people cannot say things without foundation, and that these should be examined very carefully and with open minds.

Thank You Sir and good to see you here.

I can tell you the highest echelons of Pakistan's General Staff are convinced that Indian elements are actively supporting Baloch Separatist Groups. Talal Bugti traveled to Switzerland on an Indian passport under a false name, and many of the BRA Officers interrogated have confessed that they received money and weapons from Indian agents in Afghanistan. I could accept that one BRA Officer might have just placated India under intense interrogation just to save his skin, but not multiple BRA Officers.

If you ask me personally, it's payback for support to Kashmiri Separatist Elements. With Modi taking over and Ajit Dovgal, activities seem to have been accelerated. Not to mention, CPEC and other developmental projects in Balochistan make this too big of a juicy Geo-Political target. The last thing Indian Strategic Planners would want is massive Chinese presence in Balochistan and PLAN Warships docking in Ormara, Gwadar.

I have said TTP we don't support. Very categorically. That organisation is not our baby. Sorry. That is Saudi baby you have. You try to throw that on us too.

Rest is off topic. I have always said 'calibrated' trouble in Baluchistan is a possibility.

The weapon post was posted to debunk the proof as posted. It is the wrong make and wrong weapon. A Russian PKM being passed off as Indian Vickers LMG is a laugh ... that is all.

Yes i agree, the Vickers were a bit too much. An AK-47 in the black market coupled with some RPG's are far cheaper options. Afghanistan is flooded with these weapons, its surprising how easy it is to acquire these over there.

 

[Dazzler]

I have said TTP we don't support. Very categorically. That organisation is not our baby. Sorry. That is Saudi baby you have. You try to throw that on us too.

Rest is off topic. I have always said 'calibrated' trouble in Baluchistan is a possibility.

The weapon post was posted to debunk the proof as posted. It is the wrong make and wrong weapon. A Russian PKM being passed off as Indian Vickers LMG is a laugh ... that is all.

Refer to post # 827, it is the easiest bet, made under license by OFB and can be supplied in numbers.

http://aermech.in/pkmpkt-7-62-x-54-mm-general-purpose-machine-gunofbindian-armed-forces/

 

[Spectre]

Seems like OFB produces this for Indian army. Interesting


http://aermech.in/pkmpkt-7-62-x-54-mm-general-purpose-machine-gunofbindian-armed-forces/

Pls go through the below link

http://ofbindia.gov.in/index.php?wh=Weapons&lang=en

@MilSpec

 

[salarsikander]

What really intrigues me is that How people are just denying the fact that the unrest was going on for more than a month, dozens killed, many more injured, blinded. This is the result of Failed and ill-conceived policies of India and successive govt to address the real issue. No tangible effort for development for this volatile region has taken place since last 60 years or so. So it is very natural for them to pick up arm and fight against the state.

Secondly, The trend of Indian muslims in India doesn't not help much either, most of them are below the basic tax net.

Now the question is why would Pakistan at such fragile moment do something so stupid ? Shoot itself in foot. When there is already an upcoming UN meeting, Pulling out such stunt would, first of all, Isolate Pakistan and its case for Kashmir it will in fact give boost To india's stance on Kashmir(Crackdown). So I don't find any reason why they would do it (Pakistan)

Getting to politics side, BJP is having hard time here. . The over sensationalism they created and much hyped hyper nationalism is taking over its toll in Indian society. The 'ACHE DIn' term that was used during camping days is actually taking them to buray din. The Strategic alignment towards US and losing Russia their all time friend who has always helped them out during troubling times is a proof of ill-conceived policies that are biting BJP hard. They have failed to rein in Kashmir grievances peacefully and the only thing to deflect its attention from real issue was to pull such stunt. Which no doubt will cost BJP much more than anticipated. All theses cow vigilantes which have become norm in India during BJP time were something unheard of before.

There is a strong wake up call from Indian section of society to carry out cross-border attack on Pakistan. OF c no such
direct attack would take place, because there is simply no reason to Pakistan BJP is well aware of that.

Tolerance level have obviously gone down much since BJP came into power. The Pathankot incident was nothing but local homegrown terrorist attack,a already proven and dismissed by BJP officials.

TBH Pakistan has nothing to gain from such attacks, which will only bring more humiliation, boycott and isolation