17 Indian Army soldiers killed in Uri attack

[WAJsal]

Any poster accusing Pakistan with no evidence will be thread ban. @Spectre ,@hellfire ,@Abingdonboy , if there are any proofs other than statements from your officials than please share them. Is there even an argument that Pakistan did this?

No proof, no point in trolling. And those talking about striking camps in GB and AJK, please...@Spectre , say if India doesn't strike what would you make of it? If Modi can't do it, its probably because there is no such thing as terror camps. At least highlight these so-called camps, expose Pakistan. At least do that.

I think limited strike in P0K is warranted - Yes we will loose political capital and may be some investors will put out too.

Maybe there are no terror camps to target, maybe that is why there is no such reaction.

Only in case of provable beyond any question Pakistan sponsored terror strike on our civilians.

Two way street, same feelings here.

@Irfan Baloch: Can you give the lady a little history lesson about Indian support of Mukti Bahini, LTTE, BLA then and TTP now? Seems like she doesn't believe in Shiri Modi G's gloating in Bangladesh as well.

The parallel universe in which Indians are living, those things never existed or exist now and flying pigs are in abundance

This i don't get, sometimes Modi and Indians take pride in what they did in '71. And just recently Modi was mentioning terrorists 'thanking him'. Pretty much accepting India's role, sometime they take pride and at times they are quite ashamed of it. Maybe because the atrocities are quite apparent.
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Credit: @Joe Shearer ,

A terror attack has taken grim toll on the Army and as usual, we have hyper-ventilating media and more hyper military veterans lambasting the enemy with invective, abuse and revenge.

I am ashamed that most have no clue where Uri is, leave alone sensibly analyse whats happened. Certainly, the media has little clue about the ground reality and the military veterans aren't correcting them, so worked up they appear to be to demand instant revenge above all.

Uri is 19 kms inside the LC...It is 40 kms from Baramula and 104 from Srinagar. This makes one fact clear that media and some military veterans do not seem to know: The attack site is WELL INSIDE the LC...NOT on it or even close to it.

This makes matters rather more serious.

The last thing on our minds, dear hyper Gen GD Bakshi, Col RSN Singh, Commodore Sahib, should be to rush out SF for an attack on "**** Camps"...

What is needed is professional assessment of how and where breaches in security occurred to allow unchallenged access 19 kms inside. Those breaches must be instantly plugged. Simultaneously, if sleeper cells are at work, the Police has its hands full.

At the same time, the area must be cleared of terrorists, mines and grenades primed to blast. The injured must be taken to hospital and order restored soonest.

Blame can wait, and revenge...Both should take time and great planning/thinking/opportunity.

What cant wait is to restore the sanctity of our layered security systems, improve intelligence by all including physical means and electronic...Prevent a repeat elsewhere.

What can wait is shouting, screaming, brownie pointing, innuendo, and political opportunism.

What can wait is the HM's choice of calling off his Russia visit. He must proceed forthwith and leave his MOS and Doval to handle matters. Russia is too important a country to keep on hold and India too big and powerful to let a terror strike paralyze Governance.

And my friend GD Bakshi...lay off, pal. Dont get hyper and so excitable that you appear to choke in anger. Warfighting does not need such gross reaction...Things are better handled by doing things right and without public announcement of intent.

Let me end by adding that Gen DS Hooda is the right officer to handle what has happened. He is cool, savvy, smart and very capable. He knows the area very intimately and will get things done right.

He needs people to understand and mind their business to allow him and his team to handle theirs properly. My unstinted vote is for him to do what needs doing.
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Credit: @Joe Shearer

I was listening to GD Bakshi yesterday. I am not an expert on strategic affairs, neither I have sufficient grasp of the ground situation more than any ordinary civilian but that even did not stop me to note the remarkable knee-jerk response from a man of his stature who is a PhD in limited warfare in South Asia.

He was wondering why India can not retaliate as Israel has done. He was advocating an overt op in deep inside Azad Kashmir and show the world "yes, we can do it and have done it." He anticipated a conventional war, recapture strategic objectives within 14/15 days before Pakistan decides to cross the N-thresh hold.

Blood is off course running high, but such sort of hawkish view seemed quite unnatural from a military professional. We need a long lasting solution and this is not solely a military one. My opinion is to deprive Pakistan from exploiting the psychological upper hand in the valley. The communal polarization by the lunatics from Sangh paribar must stop. Their disgusting attempt to define Nationalism on singular religio- cultural concept, Ram Mandir and cow slaughter issues have only fed and furthered the Islamic fundamentalist aspirations. Since 90's, the rise of Hindutva politics and the ascendence of radical Islam in the valley are almost parallel to each other. Second option would be remove security as much as possible. Kashmiris clearly are tired of check posts, barbed cordons and bunkers. Release all youths accused for stone pelting. Extra judicial detentions under public safety act must be thoroughly investigated and see if they are not being used for political bullying.

What worries me is, military solution could deliver fruits if we had seen the mehman mujahidins in these attacks. Contrarily, educated Kashmiri youths are joining the terrorist outfits. It clearly opens up scopes for us, Indians for a bit of self introspection before joining the chorus with hawks like GD Bakshi.

Regards
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Finish by saying, Kashmiris are also human, they deserve some symapthy from Indian population too. It's sad that they soldiers had to die, but who else suffers the most damage?

I didn't see any Indian member condemning this...

Thank you all, continue and no trolling please.....

 

[Dazzler]

Any poster accusing Pakistan with no evidence will be thread ban. @Spectre ,@hellfire ,@Abingdonboy , if there are any proofs other than statements from your officials than please share them. Is there even an argument that Pakistan did this?

No proof, no point in trolling. And those talking about striking camps in GB and AJK, please...@Spectre , say if India doesn't strike what would you make of it? If Modi can't do it, its probably because there is no such thing as terror camps. At least highlight these so-called camps, expose Pakistan. At least do that.

Maybe there are no terror camps to target, maybe that is why there is no such reaction.

Two way street, same feelings here.

This i don't get, sometimes Modi and Indians take pride in what they did in '71. And just recently Modi was mentioning terrorists 'thanking him'. Pretty much accepting India's role, sometime they take pride and at times they are quite ashamed of it. Maybe because the atrocities are quite apparent.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Credit: @Joe Shearer ,

A terror attack has taken grim toll on the Army and as usual, we have hyper-ventilating media and more hyper military veterans lambasting the enemy with invective, abuse and revenge.

I am ashamed that most have no clue where Uri is, leave alone sensibly analyse whats happened. Certainly, the media has little clue about the ground reality and the military veterans aren't correcting them, so worked up they appear to be to demand instant revenge above all.

Uri is 19 kms inside the LC...It is 40 kms from Baramula and 104 from Srinagar. This makes one fact clear that media and some military veterans do not seem to know: The attack site is WELL INSIDE the LC...NOT on it or even close to it.

This makes matters rather more serious.

The last thing on our minds, dear hyper Gen GD Bakshi, Col RSN Singh, Commodore Sahib, should be to rush out SF for an attack on "**** Camps"...

What is needed is professional assessment of how and where breaches in security occurred to allow unchallenged access 19 kms inside. Those breaches must be instantly plugged. Simultaneously, if sleeper cells are at work, the Police has its hands full.

At the same time, the area must be cleared of terrorists, mines and grenades primed to blast. The injured must be taken to hospital and order restored soonest.

Blame can wait, and revenge...Both should take time and great planning/thinking/opportunity.

What cant wait is to restore the sanctity of our layered security systems, improve intelligence by all including physical means and electronic...Prevent a repeat elsewhere.

What can wait is shouting, screaming, brownie pointing, innuendo, and political opportunism.

What can wait is the HM's choice of calling off his Russia visit. He must proceed forthwith and leave his MOS and Doval to handle matters. Russia is too important a country to keep on hold and India too big and powerful to let a terror strike paralyze Governance.

And my friend GD Bakshi...lay off, pal. Dont get hyper and so excitable that you appear to choke in anger. Warfighting does not need such gross reaction...Things are better handled by doing things right and without public announcement of intent.

Let me end by adding that Gen DS Hooda is the right officer to handle what has happened. He is cool, savvy, smart and very capable. He knows the area very intimately and will get things done right.

He needs people to understand and mind their business to allow him and his team to handle theirs properly. My unstinted vote is for him to do what needs doing.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Credit: @Joe Shearer

I was listening to GD Bakshi yesterday. I am not an expert on strategic affairs, neither I have sufficient grasp of the ground situation more than any ordinary civilian but that even did not stop me to note the remarkable knee-jerk response from a man of his stature who is a PhD in limited warfare in South Asia.

He was wondering why India can not retaliate as Israel has done. He was advocating an overt op in deep inside Azad Kashmir and show the world "yes, we can do it and have done it." He anticipated a conventional war, recapture strategic objectives within 14/15 days before Pakistan decides to cross the N-thresh hold.

Blood is off course running high, but such sort of hawkish view seemed quite unnatural from a military professional. We need a long lasting solution and this is not solely a military one. My opinion is to deprive Pakistan from exploiting the psychological upper hand in the valley. The communal polarization by the lunatics from Sangh paribar must stop. Their disgusting attempt to define Nationalism on singular religio- cultural concept, Ram Mandir and cow slaughter issues have only fed and furthered the Islamic fundamentalist aspirations. Since 90's, the rise of Hindutva politics and the ascendence of radical Islam in the valley are almost parallel to each other. Second option would be remove security as much as possible. Kashmiris clearly are tired of check posts, barbed cordons and bunkers. Release all youths accused for stone pelting. Extra judicial detentions under public safety act must be thoroughly investigated and see if they are not being used for political bullying.

What worries me is, military solution could deliver fruits if we had seen the mehman mujahidins in these attacks. Contrarily, educated Kashmiri youths are joining the terrorist outfits. It clearly opens up scopes for us, Indians for a bit of self introspection before joining the chorus with hawks like GD Bakshi.

Regards
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Finish by saying, Kashmiris are also human, they deserve some symapthy from Indian population too. It's sad that they soldiers had to die, but who else suffers the most damage?

I didn't see any Indian member condemning this...

Thank you all, continue and no trolling please.....

They would not, most of these esteemed members have lost humanity. Rest is done by their hawkish politicians, Bollywood, and the hypocritic media.

They have chosen a mass murderer as their premier, after which, expecting sympathy for an innocent soul is anything but a lost cause. I even saw an idiot advocating the curfew and justifying the death of an 11-year-old as a result of the brutality of Indian troops on this very thread.

This is a telltale sign that there is a steep climb in anti-Pakistan and anti-Muslim, even anti-minority sentiment in India, thanks to the hawks in their ruling political regime. This is unfortunate but that's how things are. There is a misadventure every other day and the blame is immediately thrown over to Pakistan. From parliament attacks to this episode, the world does not exist beyond Pakistan.

I do not see this trend changing, not anytime soon anyway. But trust me, sooner or later, this trend will lead this region to a disaster.

 

[Spectre]

Two way street, same feelings here.

yeah. but look at things from my PoV, our govt and military have unambiguously said that the terrorists were from your side. With due respect, I will take their word over Pakistani refutations.

They would not, most of these esteemed members have lost humanity. Rest is done by Bollywood and their hypocritic media.

They have chosen a mass murderer as their premier, after which, expecting sympathy after that is anything but a lost cause.

I have noticed a steep climb in anti-Pakistan and anti-Muslim sentiment in India, thanks to the hawks in thier ruling political regime. This is unfortunate but that's how things are. There is a misadventure every other day and the blame is immediately thrown over Pakistan. From parliament attacks to this episode to these folks, the world does not exist beyond Pakistan.

I do not see this trend changing, not anytime soon anyway.

Instead of blanket allegations of false flag perhaps you should introspect - whole world including your leaders have acknowledge the act of terrorism from Pakistan on Indian soil both in case of Mumbai and Pathankot. Differences have always been about the state sponsorship of such acts. You guys hide behind the curtain of plausible deniability but given enough time the truth comes out as it did in case of Mumbai attacks where elements from your then ruling dispensation belatedly admitted that "Bande Hamare the"

 

[WAJsal]

Pictures of training grounds of terrorists have come out before umpteen times @WAJsal but may be you are too young to remember those days. I admit I am yet to see new pics after post 2010 but from 90s to early 2000s they were quite frequent. Headley, Kasab and the guy arrested recently also lay weight to these claims

All were dismantled by Musharraf, anything new. Any evidence for current claims will be welcome.

They would not, most of these esteemed members have lost humanity. Rest is done by Bollywood and their hypocritic media.

They have chosen a mass murderer as their premier, after which, expecting sympathy after that is anything but a lost cause.

I have noticed a steep climb in anti-Pakistan and anti-Muslim sentiment in India, thanks to the hawks in thier ruling political regime. This is unfortunate but that's how things are. There is a misadventure every other day and the blame is immediately thrown over Pakistan. From parliament attacks to this episode to these folks, the world does not exist beyond Pakistan.

I do not see this trend changing, not anytime soon anyway.

I don't like the hypocrisy Indian masses show, but i still have better hopes.

With due respect, I will take their word over Pakistani refutations.

Funny, nationalism is killing logic. Just another day...

This i don't get, sometimes Modi and Indians take pride in what they did in '71. And just recently Modi was mentioning terrorists 'thanking him'. Pretty much accepting India's role, sometime they take pride and at times they are quite ashamed of it. Maybe because the atrocities are quite apparent.

 

[Dazzler]

yeah. but look at things from my PoV, our govt and military have unambiguously said that the terrorists were from your side. With due respect, I will take their word over Pakistani refutations.



Instead of blanket allegations of false flag perhaps you should introspect - whole world including your leaders have acknowledge the act of terrorism from Pakistan on Indian soil both in case of Mumbai and Pathankot. Differences have always been about the state sponsorship of such acts. You guys hide behind the curtain of plausible deniability but given enough time the truth comes out as it did in case of Mumbai attacks where elements from your then ruling dispensation belatedly admitted that "Bande Hamare the"

Since your politicians and media are always quick throw the blame, they should provide workable intelligence and concrete evidence first. I am afraid, you lack both.

Pathankot is still a test case to your arrogance and blatant stubbornness. I dont see anything constructive coming of this either.

 

[Spectre]

Funny, nationalism is killing logic. Just another day...

You are welcome to that opinion.. However there is an equally good and time tested logical aid - Occam's Razor - Simplest Explanation is often the most probable one. So instead of going to the dark shadows of conspiracy theories and false flags and govt lying - I for one would take them at their word.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I absolutely refuse to get into this dog-fight until responsible people on both sides accept that there have been stupid actions on both sides,and both need to introspect. There's no point making an Aunt Sally of meself.

 

[Spectre]

Since your politicians and media are always quick throw the blame, they should provide workable intelligence and concrete evidence first. I am afraid, you lack both.

Pathankot is still a test case to your arrogance and blatant stubbornness. I dont see anything constructive coming of this either.

Nothing would convince you - how can it? will any guilty party admit to crime out of goodness of their heart? Mumbai case was plain as day. Truckload of evidence was provided - Result nada! zilch!. The monster still roams freely, runs terrorist camp and spews venom without any sanction.

So instead of banging our heads over the brick wall - perhaps we should try something else.

 

[WAJsal]

and false flags and govt lying - I for one would take them at their word.

That's what i want you to do, that's exactly what i was talking about. Sometimes you take pride but on some occasion you are in denial. What else was Modi saying just the other day?

 

[Spectre]

I absolutely refuse to get into this dog-fight until responsible people on both sides accept that there have been stupid actions on both sides,and both need to introspect. There's no point making an Aunt Sally of meself.

You are conflating Uri attack with Kashmir unrest. Both are independent of each other unless you subscribe to the Pakistani PoV of false flag to let off the steam or local militants taking revenge despite all evidence and statements to the contrary.

Uri was a crime, general unrest in Kashmir due to short sighted policies and institutional negligence at best or design at worst is equally criminal but let's not get into the fallacy of considering two crimes somehow cancel each other.

Regards

That's what i want you to do, that's exactly what i was talking about. Sometimes you take pride but on some occasion you are in denial. What else was Modi saying just the other day?

If you are talking about 71 then ofcourse you are correct. Actions can be seen in the same context.

 

[Dazzler]

Nothing would convince you - how can it? will any guilty party admit to crime out of goodness of their heart? Mumbai case was plain as day. Truckload of evidence was provided - Result nada! zilch!. The monster still roams freely, runs terrorist camp and spews venom without any sanction.

So instead of banging our heads over the brick wall - perhaps we should try something else.

Indeed, the monster roams and the people stand numb to this..

 

[Spectre]

Indeed, the monster roams and the people stand numb to this..

This is a strawman argument. Kindly don't deflect - issue in discussion was the futility of providing evidence when the other side refuses to acknowledge it.

 

[Dazzler]

This is a strawman argument. Kindly don't deflect - issue in discussion was the futility of providing evidence when the other side refuses to acknowledge it.

Not quite, they are all related, no matter how much you deny.

 

[Pandora]

You are welcome to that opinion.. However there is an equally good and time tested logical aid - Occam's Razor - Simplest Explanation is often the most probable one. So instead of going to the dark shadows of conspiracy theories and false flags and govt lying - I for one would take them at their word.

I can quote a thousand quotes with opposing views

To rush into explanations is always a sign of weakness by Agatha Christie

It is easy to be wise in the explanation of an experience one has not personally witnessed by Algernon Blackwood

All definitions, explanations, distinctions, evaluations tend to be self-serving by Marty Rubin

We have, as human beings, a storytelling problem. We're a bit too quick to come up with explanations for things we don't really have an explanation for by Malcolm Gladwell

World is not as simple as bunch of quotes which just sound wise with no substance whatsoever by smuhs1

 

[Joe Shearer]

You are conflating Uri attack with Kashmir unrest. Both are independent of each other unless you subscribe to the Pakistani PoV of false flag to let off the steam or local militants taking revenge despite all evidence and statements to the contrary.

Sorry, that is your assumption, and it is untrue.

I AM REFERRING SPECIFICALLY TO THE URI ATTACK.

It is undeniable that the Kashmir unrest is part of the very big picture, but the number of layers involved is large. All layers are connected, but in a certain gradation; everything is not connected to everything else. I could spend a useful one hour detailing the interconnects, but don't want to take the time to explain to those - almost everybody in this forum - who already know everything about everything and don't need to be confused with the facts.

Uri was a crime, general unrest in Kashmir due to short sighted policies and institutional negligence at best or design at worst is equally criminal but let's not get into the fallacy of considering two crimes somehow cancel each other.

Regards



If you are talking about 71 then ofcourse you are correct. Actions can be seen in the same context.