1500 years old Bible in which 'Jesus predicts coming of Prophet Muhammad' unearthed in Turkey

[Dubious]

They may be some examples, the exact extant of changes could only be established only after comparing older manuscripts which do not exists anymore...

Why exactly are you dying to establish something which is not there and you cant even prove? Its like trying to pull out planet Jupiter from inside your ear!

 

[KingMamba]

Sorry, I have not read the whole thread. I just assumed that you denied the existence of Prophet Muhammad (saws) as well. If you as an Christian deny the existence of Prophet Muhammad (saws) who is the best attested Prophet of any major world religion when you just look at historical facts and ask historians with no ties to either religion (atheists) then I wonder what those people believing in religion x or y will say about their own Prophets who there are much less information about and proof of their existence available.

I have no problem with Christians. In Islam you recognize that we as Muslims, Jews and Christians belief in the same God and we recognize the central elements of the 3 holy scriptures but obviously not all parts in Christianity in Judaism because we believe that they have been corrupted. Most importantly the claim of Isa (as) being the son of God.

Lastly I have Chrsitian relatives on both sides of my families and I probably also have Jewish blood somewhere down the line on my mothers side so I have absolutely no hatred for any of those communities.

Neither of Hindus.

But I simply do not understand how outsiders that have obviously not researched anything can suddenly become experts. I see no people from the ME dismissing the existence of Hindu God 1 or 2 or 3. I know at least that they have a lot.

Most Christians believe in Jesus as God, we do not that is my only problem with this post of yours.

 

[Dubious]

I am citing from scholars only. I am not relying on pope francis for the quotes. Couple of lines from source you quoted "Shortly after the death of Muhammad a number of written codices of the Qur'an appeared until Uthman ordered the destruction of all but one and further ordered that copies be made of this codex to be sent to the various provinces. From this text further copies were made and the written manuscripts began to increase in number." Where is the "change log" between all the copies that were destroyed and retained?

Answering Islam is no scholar! He misquotes, pulls things out of context and many a times twists meaning...not sure which scholar in your dictionary does that!

read post 237

 

[al-Hasani]

Most Christians believe in Jesus as God, we do not that is my only problem with this post of yours.

Well, hence the corruption part in our eyes at least as Muslims. Jews are of the same opinion namely that Isa (as) or Jesus as he is also known was not the son of God. Neither of us accept the theory of God having any physical children or offspring. We rather see God as the lord and creator of the world whose powers are limitless. A lord of all of us and the universe. After all Islam stresses monotheism and submission to the will of God. So in an essence we are all children and his creation. But that's it. But if we remove that corruption/falsehood/inaccuracy in our eyes then the basic tenants are similar and the same God is worshipped in all 3 Abrahamic religions.

We can discuss how Al-Qaeda, ISIS, insane sects that claim kinship to Islam, Christianity, Judaism believe in the same God that unites all 3 believers.

 

[KingMamba]

I am citing from scholars only. I am not relying on pope francis for the quotes. Couple of lines from source you quoted "Shortly after the death of Muhammad a number of written codices of the Qur'an appeared until Uthman ordered the destruction of all but one and further ordered that copies be made of this codex to be sent to the various provinces. From this text further copies were made and the written manuscripts began to increase in number." Where is the "change log" between all the copies that were destroyed and retained?

Bro answering Islam has no scholars on their site lol it is made up of volunteer Christians and same for answering Christianity. Answering Christianity was made in response to answering Islam.

 

[Thirdfront]

Those people who say the Quran is changed have no proof, the claim is that because he made them into one format he may have added or left something out. The truth is even his enemies never accused him of this feat so such a complain coming from non-muslims thousands of years later is asinine. Remember Usman RA was assassinated because he gave his family preferential treatment yet the people you quote accuse him of something far worse that would have given his enemies much greater reason to kill him yet they never accused him of this?

May be because it was a good thing back then to standardize the text... he was doing a service for the religion. But there is very high probability that things changed, degree of which can not be ascertained now due to lack of evidence (destroyed by uthmaan) unless otherwise they were hidden and recovered in future as happened with bible..

 

[Dubious]

I am not sure how a thread about a 1500 year old bible became about the Quran?

 

[flamer84]

Sorry, I have not read the whole thread. I just assumed that you denied the existence of Prophet Muhammad (saws) as well. If you as an Christian deny the existence of Prophet Muhammad (saws) who is the best attested Prophet of any major world religion when you just look at historical facts and ask historians with no ties to either religion (atheists) then I wonder what those people believing in religion x or y will say about their own Prophets who there are much less information about and proof of their existence available.

I have no problem with Christians. In Islam you recognize that we as Muslims, Jews and Christians belief in the same God and we recognize the central elements of the 3 holy scriptures but obviously not all parts in Christianity in Judaism because we believe that they have been corrupted. Most importantly the claim of Isa (as) being the son of God.

Lastly I have Chrsitian relatives on both sides of my families and I probably also have Jewish blood somewhere down the line on my mothers side so I have absolutely no hatred for any of those communities.

Neither of Hindus.

But I simply do not understand how outsiders that have obviously not researched anything can suddenly become experts. I see no people from the ME demising the existence of Hindu God 1 or 2 or 3. I know at least that they have a lot.

No.I've even pointed out to the german poster that Mohammed as a person existed and he is a prophet for muslims.That should be respected even if we don't believe His message.

As for the rest,i didn't get drawn in the theological debates going on in here as i can recognise my limitations in knowing the specifics of every religion.Truth be told i only know the ABC's of my own faith and some comparisons with the others,sometimes i do some research but i never get up on a high horse in these kind of discussions.Honestly i even find them pointless,to each his own.

 

[Dubious]

May be because it was a good thing back then to standardize the text... he was doing a service for the religion. But there is very high probability that things changed, degree of which can not be ascertained now due to lack of evidence (destroyed by uthmaan) unless otherwise they were hidden and recovered in future as happened with bible..

Quran was not only preserved in written form but oral form as well. There were people who knew the whole Quran by heart. A change is not possible, because it will be detected.

 

[KingMamba]

Well, hence the corruption part in our eyes at least as Muslims. Jews are of the same opinion namely that Isa (as) or Jesus as he is also known was the son of God. But if we remove that corruption/falsehood/inaccuracy in our eyes then the basic tenants are similar and the same God is worshipped to in all 3 Abrahamic religions.

We can discuss how Al-Qaeda, ISIS, insane sects that claim kinship to Islam, Christianity, Judaism believe in the same God that unites all 3 believers.

Christians believe in Isa AS as God incarnate and reject Hazrat Muhammad PBUH as a liar which is why they are non believers.
Jews believe in the same God as us but they reject both ISa AS and Muhammad PBUH that is why they are non believers.

AQ, ISIS are not Muslim because of their actions.

 

[Thirdfront]

Bro answering Islam has no scholars on their site lol it is made up of volunteer Christians and same for answering Christianity. Answering Christianity was made in response to answering Islam.

Atleast they have quotes that are verifiable.

 

[al-Hasani]

Christians believe in Isa AS as God incarnate and reject Hazrat Muhammad PBUH as a liar which is why they are non believers.
Jews believe in the same God as us but they reject both ISa AS and Muhammad PBUH that is why they are non believers.

AQ, ISIS are not Muslim because of their actions.

Well, in a strict sense of the word you are correct. But they are considered as people of the Book just misguided for those reasons that you mentioned and a few others. Other than that, my interoperation of Islam, tells us to be tolerant and respectful to them.

Yes, that was just another discussion that I quickly mentioned. I mean the problem of claiming to adhere to religion x or y when none or very few of your actions reflect that. It is like a alcoholic claiming to be sober but each night he drinks himself to sleep. Does not make sense. I am tired so sorry for the "lame" comparisons. Just watched FC Barcelona win against Sevilla in a exciting game.

@flamer84

No problem. I am not that fond of religious discussion either, after all this is a defense forum, but just had to comment on that "Prophet Muhammad (saws) did not exist". Fair enough nobody tells you to follow Islam but such comments are ignorant if you ask me.

We Muslism do no deny the existence of Isa (as) (Jesus) rather we consider him as one of our greatest Prophets send to mankind by God.

 

[KingMamba]

May be because it was a good thing back then to standardize the text... he was doing a service for the religion. But there is very high probability that things changed, degree of which can not be ascertained now due to lack of evidence (destroyed by uthmaan) unless otherwise they were hidden and recovered in future as happened with bible..

How is there a "very high probability" in fact the probability is very low, he did not go about writing it himself he just took the manuscripts that were already written in the time of the Prophet himself and put them together. Also he did not do it himself many sahabas helped him collect the manuscripts from all those who had them.

History however is on our side when we say no change occurred and his own enemies never accusing him of this pretty much validates our narrative. If there was any change they would have used that as an excuse to incite insurrection but that was never a grievance of the rebels.

 

[Thirdfront]

Quran was not only preserved in written form but oral form as well. There were people who knew the whole Quran by heart. A change is not possible, because it will be detected.

LOL.....which quran did they recite and remember by heart? Hadiths quoted do show people reciting same verses with variations. That was the major reason why standardization too place, not the written quarans (written did not matter too much as the majority of the population was illiterate anyway)

How is there a "very high probability" in fact the probability is very low, he did not go about writing it himself he just took the manuscripts that were already written in the time of the Prophet himself and put them together. Also he did not do it himself many sahabas helped him collect the manuscripts from all those who had them.

History however is on our side when we say no change occurred and his own enemies never accusing him of this pretty much validates our narrative. If there was any change they would have used that as an excuse to incite insurrection but that was never a grievance of the rebels.

Do you have the manuscripts used by utmaan to draft the final, standardized version? what were the exact differences between those manuscripts themselves? Why were the originals destroyed afterwards?

 

[M. Sarmad]

@Thirdfront
Do you know that Usman r.a was almost 60 years old when prophet (pbuh) died ? Do you know that Usman was a son in law to Muhammad and very close to him throughout his life ? Do you know that when Usman compiled holy Quran (in Book form) , a few years after the death of Muhammad , there were thousands of Muslims who knew Quran by heart (since time of Muhammad )? Do you know that the "versions" you are talking about differed in arrangement of chapters/verses and not the content itself ? there were minor variations and "bad copies" of Quran were destroyed and the one agreed upon by those who had learnt Quran directly from Muhammad was made "standard"