What's new

1500 years old Bible in which 'Jesus predicts coming of Prophet Muhammad' unearthed in Turkey

I am not talking about the degree of variation, but about the variation itself. There are some people who deny that any variation exists at all...

That is because there is no variation meaning nobody can open a Quran and change the word completely, if you read the Quran as an Arabic speaker you would automatically be able to see a difference. "Liberal" Muslims today want to take the verses they deem violent completely out of the Quran this would be considered an alteration and this is what we are talking about when we say unchanged. There has never been any verse removed or added. Usman only made the Quran follow one format of recitation. Differences in meaning is common place like one verse says do not take non Muslims as your protectors but some mullahs say it says your friends. The verse is the same but people fight over the meaning.
 
That is because there is no variation meaning nobody can open a Quran and change the word completely, if you read the Quran as an Arabic speaker you would automatically be able to see a difference. "Liberal" Muslims today want to take the verses they deem violent completely out of the Quran this would be considered an alteration and this is what we are talking about when we say unchanged. There has never been any verse removed or added. Usman only made the Quran follow one format of recitation. Differences in meaning is common place like one verse says do not take non Muslims as your protectors but some mullahs say it says your friends. The verse is the same but people fight over the meaning.
I am not disputing that nothing changed since uthmaan standardized that. But do we have pre-uthmaan manuscripts to compare what was included and what was left out/changed??
 
Don't shoot the messenger (guilt by association logical fallacy). I am not denying variations exists in other religious texts. Infact it invariably have to exist. But since standardization occurred very early, quran has been preserved intact. Actual standardization was done by king james (even though attempt was started by council of nicea), bible has been preserved since then. So it is actually quran of uthmaan and bible of james that have been preserved, not quran and bible themselves....

Use your own logic, those hadiths you read showed Muslims arguing over if it said men and women or if it said gods men or women right? So then what do you think Muslims would have done if Usman RA added or removed verses to fit his view? I mean they were quarreling over the translation there would have been a huge cry over addition or subtraction. In fact only the shias of today who hate Usman RA sometimes talk about him messing with the Qurans verses but even Hazrat Ali RA himself was in charge at one point and he found no fault with the Quran's format or its verses and they supposedly follow him.
 
So infact, all the differences which you speak about so candidly are your inventions!
No. Quaran was standardized very early and other copies were burnt. This did not happen with bible (they tried, couldn't succeed) hence more variations...
 
What are the Indian members here, either atheists or Hindus, talking about when they say that Islam has no similarity with Judaism and Christianity? Is this supposed to be a joke? Islam and Judaism are the most similar religions of the 3.

All 3 religions are called Abrahamic religions for a reason. All 3 religions believe in the same God who goes under different names depending on the language. But since all 3 religions arrived among Semitic people on Semitic lands the original names of the same God in Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic are of a somewhat similar origin.

I like how Indians that have nothing to do with the ancient ME and some Northern Europeans and Eastern Europeans think that they know about our native religions more than we do or suddenly have become experts on their history, origin etc.

I am not claiming to know about your Pre-Christian (Pagan) customs of Northern or Eastern Europe. Or those of India.

I don't know which, sorry my language, drunk person, claims that there is no evidence of Prophet Muhammad (saws) existing.

No, we just have Prophet Muhammad's (saws) body buried in Madinah, we have thousands of accounts of his existence, his prophecies being recorded, we have his ancestors recorded, he belonged to the ancient Quraysh tribe of Makkah and Hijaz that happened to be ancestors of Prophet Ibrahim (as) - otherwise known as Abraham. There are literary millions of his descendants in the straight paternal line, all mostly recorded, and many, many dozens of millions who partially descent from him. In fact there is a theory that one of his descendants, an Arabian princess descending from him on her maternal line, married an Chrisitan European king in Northern Spain at the time when the Arabs and Moors controlled Iberia for nearly 900 years. Her ancestry is now present in every European royal family and millions of ordinary civilian Europeans. Just like most Europeans can somehow trace their ancestry to Charlemagne.

I mean we have Prophet Muhammad's (saws) body, artifacts belonging to him, letters that he has written, dozens of eyewitness accounts from local Makkawis, those abroad, from people believing in ancient Semitic pagan religions, Christian Arabs, Jewish Arabs, Hanif Arabs, non-Arabs etc.

Achtiname of Muhammad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Prophet Muhammad's (saws) letter to one of the oldest Christian monasteries in Egypt (Sinai), St. Catherine. With an imprint representing Prophet Muhammad's (saws) hand. Don't forget that Christian Arabs, Assyrians, Chaldeans, Aramaics and other Semitic speaking people of the ME are the oldest Christian people and that Christianity originated in the ME.

But anyway it is no srecret that we hear such nonsense on PDF, unfortunately. There are quite a lot of ignorant people.

Oh, and without causing any offense or distress to any Christians reading this then it is no secret that the Bible has been falsified and corrupted many times over. Just look at all the dozens of sects in Christianity and different Bibles used.
EDIT: I happen to be an Hashemite so saying that Prophet Muhammad (saws) Is not existing is like saying that my family and millions like me "do not exist".

With the only correction that when you refered to northern europeans you were talking about @MarkusS ( he said that the doesn't believe that Mohammed existed) and when you were talking about East Europeans you were refering to me,because basically i'm the only Eastern European in this thread.

Now,the thing that needs clarifying is that I made no claims about knowing about Islam nor did i take a jab on it on this thread which you can clearly check.
 
I am not disputing that nothing changed since uthmaan standardized that. But do we have pre-uthmaan manuscripts to compare what was included and what was left out/changed??

No he collected all the manuscripts from the sahaba and threw them into one book format and sent those out to all the Muslim governors and told them to use this one format in mosques.
 
I am not talking about the degree of variation, but about the variation itself. There are some people who deny that any variation exists at all...

Not sure how in your research you missed soo many important clues:

Jam' Al-Qur'an - The Early Surviving Qur'an Manuscripts

Don't shoot the messenger (guilt by association logical fallacy). I am not denying variations exists in other religious texts. Infact it invariably have to exist. But since standardization occurred very early, quran has been preserved intact. Actual standardization was done by king james (even though attempt was started by council of nicea), bible has been preserved since then. So it is actually quran of uthmaan and bible of james that have been preserved, not quran and bible themselves....
Come back when you find "words" being changed from the Quran rather than I dont know pronunciation...

We still understand you mean zeera when you say jeera!

lols, guilt by association??? who do you exect to talk critical about quran? king of saudi or some other mullah????
At least a scholar ...I am sorry to hear you can only find extreme ends to any question!
 
Use your own logic, those hadiths you read showed Muslims arguing over if it said men and women or if it said gods men or women right? So then what do you think Muslims would have done if Usman RA added or removed verses to fit his view? I mean they were quarreling over the translation there would have been a huge cry over addition or subtraction. In fact only the shias of today who hate Usman RA sometimes talk about him messing with the Qurans verses but even Hazrat Ali RA himself was in charge at one point and he found no fault with the Quran's format or its verses and they supposedly follow him.
They may be some examples, the exact extant of changes could only be established only after comparing older manuscripts which do not exists anymore...
 
@al-Hasani I did not even want to bring up lineages because history alone disproves their claims that Prophet Muhammad PBUH existed lol, they think millions of people just invented a forefather out of some type of collective brain fart.
 
No. Quaran was standardized very early and other copies were burnt. This did not happen with bible (they tried, couldn't succeed) hence more variations...

We know it was standardized and we are thankful to it and this is why Allah will never appoint another messenger and start all over again.
 
I am not talking about the degree of variation, but about the variation itself. There are some people who deny that any variation exists at all...

During the caliphate of Uthman, from 644 to 656, a new issue regarding the Quran arose in the Muslim community: pronunciation. During the life of the Prophet ﷺ, the Quran was revealed in seven different dialects - qira’as. The dialects differed slightly in their pronunciation of certain letters and words, but the overall meaning was unchanged. These seven dialects were not an innovation brought in by corruption of the Quran in later years, as it was mentioned by the Prophet ﷺ himself, and there are numerous sayings of his describing the authenticity of all seven dialects that are recorded in the hadith compilations of Bukhari and Muslim. The reason for there being different dialects for the Quran was to make it easier for different tribes around the Arabian Peninsula to learn and understand it.

During Uthman’s reign, people coming into the Muslim world at its periphery, in places like Persia, Azerbaijan, Armenia, and North Africa were beginning to learn the Quran. An issue arose for them when it came to pronunciation of words, as they would hear different Arabs pronouncing the same verses differently. Although the different pronunciations were sanctioned by the Prophet ﷺ and there was no inherent harm in people reciting and teaching them, it led to confusion among new non-Arab Muslims.

Uthman responded by commissioning a group to come together, organize the Quran according to the dialect of the tribe of Quraysh (the Prophet ﷺ’s tribe), and spread the Qurayshi dialect to all parts of the empire. Uthman’s team (which again included Zaid bin Thabit) compiled a Quran into one book (known as a mus’haf – from the word for page, sahifa) based on first hand manuscripts along with the memories of the best Quran reciters of Madinah. This mus’haf was then compared with the copy that Abu Bakr commissioned, to make sure there were no discrepancies. Uthman then ordered numerous copies of the mus’haf to be made, which were sent to far off provinces throughout the empire, along with reciters who would teach the masses the Quran.

Because the Quran was now compiled and being produced on a regular basis, there was no need for the numerous fragments of verses that people had in their possession. He thus ordered that those fragments be destroyed so they cannot be used in the future to cause confusion among the masses. Although Orientalists use this incident to try to prove the erroneous claim that there were some discrepancies that Uthman wanted to eliminate, that is a simplistic way of looking at the event. The entire community in Madinah, including numerous eminent Companions such as Ali ibn Abi Talib, willingly went along with this plan, and no objections were voiced. Had he been eliminating legitimate differences, the people of Madinah would have surely objected or even revolted against Uthman, neither of which happened. Instead, the mus’haf of Uthman was accepted by the entire community as authentic and correct.

The Script of the Quran
Another complaint that Orientalists make deals with the fact that the Mus’haf of Uthman lacked any diacritical marks (dots that differentiated the letters and vowel markings). The letters seen in his mus’haf are thus just the skeletal base of Arabic letters. For example, the word قيل (he said), without diacritical marks would look like this: ڡٮل. According to the claims of Orientalists, a reader can then read the word as فيل (elephant), قبل (before), or قَبّل (he kissed). Clearly, reading such different words would have a huge difference in meaning. Orientalists such as the Australian professor of the early 1900s, Arthur Jeffery, claim that Uthman’s copy of the Quran, with its lack of diacritical marks made it possible for variant readings, and thus variant meanings to exist, making the Quran today not authentic.

There are numerous flaws in this argument:

First, the fact that Uthman sent reciters with his copies of the mus’haf is of huge importance. We must remember that the main way the Quran was preserved was orally, and the written copies were only meant to be a supplement to oral recitation. If someone already has a verse memorized, the skeletal letters in a copy of Uthman’s mus’haf served only as a visual aid when reciting. To illustrate this example, we can look at the following inscription on the inside of the Dome of the Rock, in Jerusalem. The building was built in the late 600s and features one of the oldest calligraphic inscriptions in Arabic on the inside of the building, written in the same Kufic script as Uthman’s mus’haf:

Dome-of-the-Rock-300x87.png


For someone familiar with the Arabic language and some basic common phrases regarding the supremacy of Allah, it is easy to make out what this part of the inscription says:

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم لا اله الا الله وحده لا
شريك له له الملك و له الحمد يحي و يميت و هو
على كل شئ قدير محمد عبد الله و رسوله

In the name of God, the Merciful the Compassionate. There is no god but God. He is One. He hasno associate. Unto Him belongeth sovereignity and unto Him belongeth praise. He quickeneth and He giveth death; and He hasPower over all things. Muhammad is the servant of God and His Messenger.4
In the same way as this passage, the mus’haf of Uthman could be easily read by someone who was familiar with the verses and the Arabic script. Thus the claim that the lack of diacritical marks makes it impossible to know what the original word was is clearly baseless.

The second problem with the claims of Orientalists like Jeffery deals with the idea of reading a word completely wrong based on the lack of diacritical marks. Let us assume for a moment that there are no reciters around to explain how a verse should be read from Uthman’s mus’haf and someone comes across the word ڡٮل. As we stated earlier, this can be a number of different words based on where the diacritical marks are. However, from context clues, an educated reader can easily figure out what word it is supposed to be. It is almost impossible for a reader to replace the word “before” with “elephant” and have the sentence still make sense. While in some cases a reader may accidentally replace one word with another that still makes sense, these occasions are rare with the way the Arabic language is set up, and all that is still assuming there are no Quranic reciters around to guide the reader.

Over time, during the 700s and 800s, diacritical marks began being added to the mus’hafs throughout the Muslim world. This was done as the Muslim world shifted from an oral to a written society, to further facilitate reading from a copy of the Quran, and to eliminate errors by people who did not already know the verses they were reading. Today, almost all modern mus’hafs include diacritical marks on the skeletal letters along with vowel markings to make reading easier.

Page-286x300.png


A page from the Uthmani Mus’haf showing part of Surat Muhammad. Note the lack of diacritical marks.

Of course I dont expect you to notice as you wont notice anything in Arabic script because you ask a Fisher monger rather than an expert!

How Do We Know the Quran is Unchanged? | Lost Islamic History
 
They may be some examples, the exact extant of changes could only be established only after comparing older manuscripts which do not exists anymore...

Those people who say the Quran is changed have no proof, the claim is that because he made them into one format he may have added or left something out. The truth is even his enemies never accused him of this feat so such a complain coming from non-muslims thousands of years later is asinine. Remember Usman RA was assassinated because he gave his family preferential treatment yet the people you quote accuse him of something far worse that would have given his enemies much greater reason to kill him yet they never accused him of this?
 
With the only correction that when you refered to northern europeans you were talking about @MarkusS ( he said that the doesn't believe that Mohammed existed) and when you were talking about East Europeans you were refering to me,because basically i'm the only Eastern European in this thread.

Now,the thing that needs clarifying is that I made no claims about knowing about Islam nor did i take a jab on it on this thread which you can clearly check.

Sorry, I have not read the whole thread. I just assumed that you denied the existence of Prophet Muhammad (saws) as well. If you as an Christian deny the existence of Prophet Muhammad (saws) who is the best attested Prophet of any major world religion when you just look at historical facts and ask historians with no ties to either religion (atheists) then I wonder what those people believing in religion x or y will say about their own Prophets who there are much less information about and proof of their existence available.

I have no problem with Christians. In Islam you recognize that we as Muslims, Jews and Christians belief in the same God and we recognize the central elements of the 3 holy scriptures but obviously not all parts in Christianity in Judaism because we believe that they have been corrupted. Some parts. For instance most importantly the claim of Isa (as) being the son of God.

Lastly I have Chrsitian relatives on both sides of my families and I probably also have Jewish blood somewhere down the line on my mothers side so I have absolutely no hatred for any of those communities.

Neither of Hindus.

But I simply do not understand how outsiders that have obviously not researched anything can suddenly become experts. I see no people from the ME dismissing the existence of Hindu God 1 or 2 or 3. I know at least that they have a lot.
 
Not sure how in your research you missed soo many important clues:

Jam' Al-Qur'an - The Early Surviving Qur'an Manuscripts

Come back when you find "words" being changed from the Quran rather than I dont know pronunciation...

We still understand you mean zeera when you say jeera!

At least a scholar ...I am sorry to hear you can only find extreme ends to any question!
I am citing from scholars only. I am not relying on pope francis for the quotes. Couple of lines from source you quoted "Shortly after the death of Muhammad a number of written codices of the Qur'an appeared until Uthman ordered the destruction of all but one and further ordered that copies be made of this codex to be sent to the various provinces. From this text further copies were made and the written manuscripts began to increase in number." Where is the "change log" between all the copies that were destroyed and retained?
 
Back
Top Bottom