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14 PAF aircraft destroyed, damaged in a year

Well JF-17 Crashed after clearing all test and that to newly build ........but did your AF told what bring that JF-17 Down? .well no? LCA crashed till now that is still flying in testing stage .... since ...???

No , my airforce didn't tell me about JF-17. My airforce doesn't operate JF-17 :rolleyes:

LCA is flying? Since when LCA became "operational"? :lol: Being "operational" and being in "testing phase" are two completely different things.

Every aircraft that goes down does that after 'clearing all checks' , big deal?

Pfft , this isn't something big-why are you making all this hype?
 
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Well JF-17 Crashed after clearing all test and that to newly build ........but did your AF told what bring that JF-17 Down? .well no? LCA crashed till now that is still flying in testing stage .... since ...???



Mr India lost SU-30 after flying soo many hours and soo Many time since soo many ages , in fact they flied so much that their airframe need to be refit again(some of them) , Now compared with your JF-17 Flight. Did you know why your JF-17 Crashed?

IAF told why SU-30 Crashed and that one crashed because of R&D doing by pilots and switched off computers.

The LCA in the last twenty years has merely clocked up some 2000 sorties, where as by the time first JF-17 crashed over a year ago, it had completed over 10,000 sorties. It was also a bird strike that caused the crash.
Moreover, JF-17 has been used to carry out missions against the terrorists....when was the last time or when did your MKI ever fired in anger. !!
 
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Taking a shot in every thing is seems a habit in us these days...

instead of going in details of technical reasons & learning something from experts here, we are just spoiling this kind of thread also?

Crashes happens everywhere in the world & not a single air-force run out of aircraft just cos of crashes, so khush hone ki jaroorat nahi hai bhaiyo...

Gyan ki baat seekhne do mujhe...:coffee:
 
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Over a dozen Pakistani air force planes have crashed in roughly the past 18 months, raising concerns about the health of an aging fleet that officials are struggling to upgrade because of a lack of funds.A significant number of the air force's combat aircraft are nearly half a century old and have been called on in recent years to help the army fight a domestic Taliban insurgency that has killed thousands of people. This has added to the strain on a force that has historically focused on countering the threat from Pakistan's neighbor and archenemy, India.

Pakistan has turned to the U.S. and China for help in modernizing its air force, but economic woes have strained the government's budget, even for the country's powerful military. Tension with the U.S. over a host of issues, including the covert raid that killed Osama bin Laden last year, also hasn't helped.

Shahzad Chaudhry, a former senior Pakistani air force officer, said the number of planes that have crashed "would be worrying for any air force."

"If I were air force chief, I certainly wouldn't want to see over a dozen airplanes being lost," said Chaudhry. "Obviously we need to bring those numbers down."

At least 13 planes have crashed since May 2011, many because of technical problems, according to a record maintained by The Associated Press. The air force did not respond to request for comment on the crashes.

The most recent accident occurred on Nov. 22, when a Dassault Mirage fighter jet crashed on a routine night training mission in central Punjab province, killing the pilot. The air force said at the time that it was investigating the cause of the crash, but eyewitnesses said the plane caught fire before it fell out of the sky.

Nearly half the planes that have crashed were decades-old Mirage fighters. They make up at least a quarter of the force's fleet of about 400 combat aircraft, according to the website GlobalSecurity.org. Many were built nearly 50 years ago and acquired from foreign militaries that had already retired them.

"We bought them at almost throw-away prices, brought them over, overhauled them and continue to operate them," said former Pakistani air force chief Tanvir Mahmood. "This was our compulsion because of the financial constraints that we had."

Chaudhry, the former senior air force officer, said the Mirage was a "very sturdy platform" that shouldn't fail easily.

"But when you have the intensity of an operational combat environment, problems tend to be there," said Chaudhry.

The crashes raise questions not only about the age of the aircraft, but also flight maintenance practices, said Sajad Haider, a celebrated former air force pilot who has written a book about the service.

Other planes that have gone down include the Chengdu F-7 fighter jet bought from China, the JF-17 Thunder fighter jet jointly developed with China and Pakistan's Mushshak trainer, a propeller plane.

The most advanced fighter jet operated by the Pakistani air force is the F-16 Fighting Falcon, over 60 of which were purchased in various batches from the U.S. over the past three decades.

U.S. military support came to a halt in the 1990s because of sanctions imposed on Pakistan over its nuclear program, but resumed in 2001 when Washington needed Islamabad's support to fight al-Qaida and the Taliban in Afghanistan. Military assistance largely dried up once again over the past two years because of renewed tensions between the two countries, although the U.S. did deliver more than a dozen new F-16s purchased by Pakistan.

One of the reasons Pakistan turned to China for help with its air force was the country's troubles with the U.S.

The government has purchased over 100 F-7 fighter jets from China, mostly in the 1980s, and has reportedly ordered more advanced FC-20 fighter jets in recent years. Pakistan is also domestically producing the JF-17 fighter jet, jointly developed with China, but it has not yet entered full service.

"The JF-17 program was pushed through during my tenure of office because we knew we couldn't live with these old Mirages and some of our old Chinese planes for too long," said Mahmood, who served as air force chief from 2006 to 2009.

The current head of the air force, Tahir Rafique Butt, told Pakistan's Senate defense committee at the end of November that the force was struggling to modernize its equipment and technology because of a shortage of funds, said the head of the committee, Mushahid Hussain.

While Pakistani military spending makes up about 20 percent of the government's budget, the air force is lower down the totem pole than the powerful army.

Hussain said the air force was doing the best with what it has, but the recent spate of crashes "was linked to use of technology that is fast becoming outmoded and obsolete."

"That reinforces the argument the air force was making to us about a lack of resources," said Hussain.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2012/12/11/world/asia/ap-as-pakistan-air-force-woes.html?hp&_r=1&
 
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Which crashes are being referred here? I don't recall many front line jets having accidental crashes.
 
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Nearly half the planes that have crashed were decades-old Mirage fighters. They make up at least a quarter of the force's fleet of about 400 combat aircraft, according to the website GlobalSecurity.org. Many were built nearly 50 years ago and acquired from foreign militaries that had already retired them.
That is close to total number of mirages bought since 1967. Not operational count. Out of 50 Ex-Libyan mirages deal, only few (6-10) aircraft were inducted in PAF (after overhauling them), the remaining ones were used as spares.

As of today, total count of Mirages in PAF is way less than 200.

The crashes raise questions not only about the age of the aircraft, but also flight maintenance practices, said Sajad Haider, a celebrated former air force pilot who has written a book about the service.
True. But in most of the crashes since last November, pilot error was the main element.

"The JF-17 program was pushed through during my tenure of office because we knew we couldn't live with these old Mirages and some of our old Chinese planes for too long," said Mahmood, who served as air force chief from 2006 to 2009.
....at the expense of quality and testing?
 
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You can always look at the picture from both the ends. I can understand the number of pilot errors which may have resulted in crashes. But why so many this last few months. Is the quality of training suffering? Bird hits?Technical faults. The fact remains that we are dealing with a fast obsolescent fleet, nonexistent budget for replenishment,a very lax attitude in our general demeanour(although i cant say whether this has anything to do with the crashes)and drying out of resources which previously used to dish hand outs to us.
At the end of the day, we need to accept there is something wrong before we investigate what it is and where do we go to rectify it. We have always struggled with an old fleet so why so many problems in recent years? It is a fair ask!!
Araz
 
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Which crashes are being referred here? I don't recall many front line jets having accidental crashes.

14 PAF aircraft destroyed, damaged in a year

ISLAMABAD - Fourteen aircraft of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) have been destroyed or damaged in thirteen cases of aircraft crashes, fire eruption or emergency landings in over a year but the inquiry report of none of these incidents has come to light till date.According to the data available, more than 10 PAF officers including an air commodore, six squadron leaders, and two flight lieutenants have been killed in the aircraft crashes since October last year.The destroyed or damaged aircraft included Mushak, Mirage, F-7, F-7 PG, JF-17 Thunder and an Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV), Falco-I Selex, the PAF surveillance drone that had crashed near Mianwali in May this year. The GS Falco-I Selex is the only type of surveillance drone the PAF present has. After every aircraft crash, the PAF would issue a one-liner, “A board of inquiry has been ordered to determine the cause of accident.” However, the details of these inquiries are neither shared publicly nor any relevant details are made available to media.PAF sources say, the results of these kind of probes are never made public or shared with media. “These are internal probes of highly sensitive nature. Only the PAF top brass remains privy to relevant details,” this correspondent was told.PAF Spokesman Group Captain Tariq Mehmood was called at his official and personal cell and official landline numbers to acquire the armed force’s version on the subject but he did not respond. A message was also dropped with the spokesman’s personal assistant Muhammad Akram but the PAF’s version was not received till the filing of this report. The details of the incidents involving PAF aircraft are as under:Last week (November 22), a PAF aircraft, reportedly a Mushak, crashed near Jhang. A squadron leader was killed. On August 15, 2012, a Mirage aircraft crashed near Thal, the pilot remained safe.On August 6, a PAF aircraft, once again a Mirage, crashed near Charsadda, two pilots had remained safe. June 12, another Mirage crashed near Thal. The pilot was safe.May 29, a PAF F-7 aircraft caught fire during repair at Samungli, Quetta. The aircraft was largely damaged. No loss of life was reported.This year’s May 17 proved to be deadliest day for the PAF in recent times. Two of its Mushak aircraft collided mid-air near Risalpur Academy killing four PAF officers, three squadron leaders and a flight lieutenant.February 8, F-7 PG aircraft crashed in Pisin, Balochistan, a flight lieutenant was killed. January 25, a PAF aircraft, reportedly, a Mushak, crashed near Mianwali. The two pilots were safe. January 17, an aircraft of PAF (type not known) crashed in Turkey near Azmeer base. One squadron leader was killed while unspecified number of trainees had gone missing. They were also reportedly dead.November 14 (last year), a JF-17 Thunder crashed in Attock. A squadron leader lost his life.October 19, 2011, a PAF Mirage crashed near Lasbela, Balochistan. An air commodore was killed. Talking to TheNation, Air Commodore (r) Ali Raza, said that the main cause of the PAF aircraft crashes were technical lapses. “I think the repeated aircraft crash incidents are a result of the poor technical and engineering oversight. It’s the job of engineering branch to ensure that aircraft is well maintained and fully fit for flying operations. The pre-flight and post-flight inspections are carried out to examine if all the parts of an aircraft are functioning properly,” he said.The reason for the technical lapses, the retired air commodore believed, could be extensive occupation at the Western border causing excessive training exercises. “The PAF is extensively engaged in the war on terror on the Western border. This kind of operational engagement requires hectic operational preparedness that involves excessive professional training and other standby arrangements. This could be a constraint for effective aircraft maintenance and repair,” he said. Regarding results of the probes launched into PAF aircraft incidents, Air Commodore (r) Ali Raza said that the probes’ findings are generally shared with the top officials at engineering, operations and administration branches of PAF whereas “these details always remain a mystery for everyone else.”

14 PAF aircraft destroyed, damaged in a year | The Nation
 
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Which crashes are being referred here? I don't recall many front line jets having accidental crashes.

and to further enlight you and other blind / deaf / amnesia patients here.

15th August 2012 - Mirage went down -

PAF Mirage Fighter aircraft crashes near Thal | DAWN.COM

24th November 2012 - Mirage went down. -

PAF aircraft crashes, pilot killed - PakTribune

5th July 2012 - FT-7 went down.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

12th June 2012 - Mirage went down. -

PAF jet crashes in Balochistan - geo.tv

May 19, 2012 - UAV crashed

Dunya News: World:-New Zealand: Two members of rescue vessel hurt...


January 25, 2012 - PAF FT-7 crashed

Dunya News: Pakistan:p:AF aircraft crashes, female pilot, instructor inj...


February 8, 2012 - PAF's F7-PG crashed

Dunya News: Sports:-Cabrera lead Tigers to sixth straight win ...


May 11, 2012 - PAF Mirage-5 crashed

Dunya News: Pakistan:p:AF plane crashes near hub...


May 17, 2012 - PAF's 2 Mushaks crashed after mid air collission

Two PAF Mushak Aircrafts Destroyed in mid-air crash

January 17, 2012 - PAF pilot crashed a T-37 in Turkey.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

July 11 2012 - Mi-17 crashed in Skardu. -

Five killed as Pakistan Army helicopter crashes in Skardu | The News Tribe

Any other info needed?

The original article speaks about 18 months period where as I have posted only calender year 2012.

Let me know if I should dig 6 more months as well.
 
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and to further enlight you and other blind / deaf / amnesia patients here.

15th August 2012 - Mirage went down -

PAF Mirage Fighter aircraft crashes near Thal | DAWN.COM

24th November 2012 - Mirage went down. -

PAF aircraft crashes, pilot killed - PakTribune

5th July 2012 - FT-7 went down.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

12th June 2012 - Mirage went down. -

PAF jet crashes in Balochistan - geo.tv

May 19, 2012 - UAV crashed

Dunya News: World:-New Zealand: Two members of rescue vessel hurt...


January 25, 2012 - PAF FT-7 crashed

Dunya News: Pakistan:p:AF aircraft crashes, female pilot, instructor inj...


February 8, 2012 - PAF's F7-PG crashed

Dunya News: Sports:-Cabrera lead Tigers to sixth straight win ...


May 11, 2012 - PAF Mirage-5 crashed

Dunya News: Pakistan:p:AF plane crashes near hub...


May 17, 2012 - PAF's 2 Mushaks crashed after mid air collission

Two PAF Mushak Aircrafts Destroyed in mid-air crash

January 17, 2012 - PAF pilot crashed a T-37 in Turkey.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

July 11 2012 - Mi-17 crashed in Skardu. -

Five killed as Pakistan Army helicopter crashes in Skardu | The News Tribe

Any other info needed?

can you do the maths yourself please, only 5 Mirage mentioned by you,
still i can see its way less then indian MIGs

and to further enlight you and other blind / deaf / amnesia patients here.

15th August 2012 - Mirage went down -

PAF Mirage Fighter aircraft crashes near Thal | DAWN.COM

24th November 2012 - Mirage went down. -

PAF aircraft crashes, pilot killed - PakTribune

5th July 2012 - FT-7 went down.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

12th June 2012 - Mirage went down. -

PAF jet crashes in Balochistan - geo.tv

May 19, 2012 - UAV crashed

Dunya News: World:-New Zealand: Two members of rescue vessel hurt...


January 25, 2012 - PAF FT-7 crashed

Dunya News: Pakistan:p:AF aircraft crashes, female pilot, instructor inj...


February 8, 2012 - PAF's F7-PG crashed

Dunya News: Sports:-Cabrera lead Tigers to sixth straight win ...


May 11, 2012 - PAF Mirage-5 crashed

Dunya News: Pakistan:p:AF plane crashes near hub...


May 17, 2012 - PAF's 2 Mushaks crashed after mid air collission

Two PAF Mushak Aircrafts Destroyed in mid-air crash

January 17, 2012 - PAF pilot crashed a T-37 in Turkey.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

July 11 2012 - Mi-17 crashed in Skardu. -

Five killed as Pakistan Army helicopter crashes in Skardu | The News Tribe

Any other info needed?

can you do the maths yourself please, only 5 Mirage mentioned by you,
still i can see its way less then indian MIGs
 
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can you do the maths yourself please, only 5 Mirage mentioned by you,

We are talking about overall PAF crashes not just mirages.

still i can see its way less then indian MIGs

Pakistan has lost more aircrafts than India this year. Indian AF is 3-4 times bigger in numbers than PAF and yet the later has lost more aircrafts this year.
 
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and to further enlight you and other blind / deaf / amnesia patients here.

15th August 2012 - Mirage went down.

24th November 2012 - Mirage went down.

5th July 2012 - Mushak went down.

12th June 2012 - Mirage went down. - http://www.geo.tv/Ge...l.aspx?ID=53921

May 19, 2012 - UAV crashed http://dunyanews.tv/...iNOaWQ9ODA4Njk=


January 25, 2012 - PAF FT-7 crashed

http://dunyanews.tv/...iNOaWQ9NjIxMDc=


February 8, 2012 - PAF's F7-PG crashed

http://dunyanews.tv/...iNOaWQ9NjQ0NDM=


May 11, 2012 - PAF Mirage-5 crashed

http://dunyanews.tv/...iNOaWQ9Nzk3MTA=


May 17, 2012 - PAF's 2 Mushaks crashed after mid air collission

http://dunyanews.tv/...iNOaWQ9ODA0OTI=

January 17, 2012 - PAF pilot crashed a Turkish aircraft in Turkey

http://dailytimes.co...18-1-2012_pg7_7

July 11 2012 - Mi-17 crashed in Skardu.

Any other info needed?



Two things that I think can be attributed to pilot error are the crash of the 2 mashaqs which are trainer aircrafts. I think that was clearly proven to be pilot error that proved too costly.
The JFT crash was technically a plane in evaluation as it was not part of the fleet. It was a low level flameout while the plane banked. If i remember correctly the pilot ejected but due to the banking plane crashed into the nearby hill and died on the spot. What is not clear is why the engine flemed out ie engine fault(on a new unit is unfortunate event) or bird hit which is no one's fault.
The PAF pilot lost in Turkey should not be considered a PAF loss although our most valuable asset was lost in the crash. the problem was with the engine.
The last Mirage which went down is probably pilot error which can happen in a night time sortie at low level(sourced thru Muradk)
You obviously dont have any idea about the Skardu airport and the difficulties of flying around at that altitude in a helicopter due to sudden changes in wind currents. These birds are under a lot of strain due to WOT and equipment failure is not uncommon when everything is stretched to the max!!
The other mashaq was a low level crash due to engine failure or technical failure. both pilots and the lady flying officer survived with some injuries.
The fact remains that flying is a hazardous business and the WOT does not help with unnecessary strain on machines. However we need to discuss the reasons in detail and see if there are any lessons to be learnt.
Araz
 
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planes lost is o.k..but lives lost is worst..
 
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