Hasnain2009
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2009
- Messages
- 1,782
- Reaction score
- 0
- Country
- Location
Air Cheif said that Pakistan will get first 4 F-16's in june, and 4 jets per month after it, so june+july+aug+sep+oct+nov+dec 4+4+4+4+4+4+4=28!
14 More F16 for PAF (Approved by US)
- Thread starter Rank
- Start date
Nahraf
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2010
- Messages
- 1,508
- Reaction score
- 0
Agreed. But celebrating 14 used F-16 is really immature by some Pakistani posters. I agree with Indian poster Atmi Chuza who wrote"
"As an Indian I don't care how many F-16's US keeps giving you. these are like bones US throws at you to calm you down. India does not need to worry about 20-30 extra jets in PAF . "
AZADPAKISTAN2009
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2009
- Messages
- 37,669
- Reaction score
- 68
- Country
- Location
32 Block C/D for Pak Airforce , Second squadron - 18 JF17 Thunder by 2010 December. Aproximately 50 new fighters in Pakistan airforce no too shabby, 14 Cobras !! , and more in 2015
Not to forget our 4 Awacs in 2010
Are moving in right direction , and Pakistan has to control taliban in Afghanistan Plus we are getting help in termal power plant creation in Pakitan from US , which is move in right direction.
But we do need to recover 50 billion dollars lost in war vs Taliban - so hopefully we can get some more items , like General Kiani said , Power and Electricity is major problem
TaimiKhan
SENIOR MODERATOR
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2009
- Messages
- 8,956
- Reaction score
- 10
- Country
- Location
The attitude being shown by some Pakistani members without taking into consideration the reasons behind acquiring of these jets even though US is not a friend of ours is very disgusting.
But can be expected from people who have limited vision, especially in matters of strategic defence.
Would have been better if they had sat down, thought about PAF, its condition, the threat its going to and is facing, the requirement of PAF, its infrastructure, its long history with F-16s and the future expected layout of PAF.
Iran being an arch enemy of US, still got weapons through official back channel, because Iran was fighting for its own survival as its military was US equipped. But they showed wisdom and got weapons from US to fight off an aggressor and learned their lesson and embarked on path of self sufficiency.
Similarly, when we started our collaboration with China through JF-17 program and the acquisition plan for FC-20s, it was clear that PAF has learned its lesson, but as we are facing one large enemy, anything even from unfriendly US should be and is welcomed as it will make the imminent and more threatening enemy think twice before attacking.
Anyway, a very disgusting attitude by some of our very own. Criticizing was the easy part, but giving solutions wasn't as there is none in the short run. And repeating the & agreeing with the line which the Indian member used, was even worse then Pakistan going again for US F-16s, pathetic.
But can be expected from people who have limited vision, especially in matters of strategic defence.
Would have been better if they had sat down, thought about PAF, its condition, the threat its going to and is facing, the requirement of PAF, its infrastructure, its long history with F-16s and the future expected layout of PAF.
Iran being an arch enemy of US, still got weapons through official back channel, because Iran was fighting for its own survival as its military was US equipped. But they showed wisdom and got weapons from US to fight off an aggressor and learned their lesson and embarked on path of self sufficiency.
Similarly, when we started our collaboration with China through JF-17 program and the acquisition plan for FC-20s, it was clear that PAF has learned its lesson, but as we are facing one large enemy, anything even from unfriendly US should be and is welcomed as it will make the imminent and more threatening enemy think twice before attacking.
Anyway, a very disgusting attitude by some of our very own. Criticizing was the easy part, but giving solutions wasn't as there is none in the short run. And repeating the & agreeing with the line which the Indian member used, was even worse then Pakistan going again for US F-16s, pathetic.
TOPGUN
PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2006
- Messages
- 8,689
- Reaction score
- 2
- Country
- Location
I totally agree with you taimikhan i wrote something of the same nature in my post here unreal of some of the members we have here that can't see us shine
qsaark
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2008
- Messages
- 2,638
- Reaction score
- 0
It is all about the philosophy and planning of our Air Force and Mastan Saheb has always done a brutal yet excellent job dissecting the two of the PAF. First of all, I do not buy that the PAF is cash strapped. The present pathetic economical situation of Pakistan has affected all three arms, not only the Air Force but this was not the situation always. The PAF should have learnt the lesson during the 60s that when it comes to procure the Aircrafts you were going to rely upon for protecting your very own motherland, United States was just not the supplier to look for. No matter how good was/is the technology, the technology would go down the drain and very fast if the support was/is not readily available as we witnessed during 60s and later in 90s.
Soon after 1965 war, PAF or perhaps self-proclaimed FM Ayub did make some good decisions such as procuring F-6s from China and Mirages from France. These procurements were sort of interim or rather desperate measures since the hearts of our US-trained pilots were always in the US-made aircrafts. During their visits to the USA, these young Pakistani officers were not only trained to fly the American jets, they were also thoroughly brain washed about the supremacy and other crap of the American culture, their technology, and their training. By the end of the 70s, most senior PAF officers who had tasted the bitterness of the American sanctions during 60s and 70s were already retired and the US-trained and brain-washed officers were in the positions of making the critical decisions for the PAF.
Strangely enough, among the PAF circles, there was never a serious thought of establishing a robust military aviation infrastructure that would eventually make Pakistan partially or fully independent of reliance on foreign hardware. The most we did was to establish some re-build factories for the F-6 and Mirages at Kamra and thought we were done. Just across the border, HAL had manufactured Maruts in as early as 1960 and by the time PAC Kamra started ‘fixing’ the 50s era F-6 in 1972 and 60s era Mirages in 1974, the HAL was already license producing the Ajeets (Gnat) and MiG-21s. Even though we were late, still it was not too late to send hundreds of promising engineers to countries like China, and France and get them trained in various areas of military aviation so they could establish a vigorous aviation base in Pakistan but unfortunately, this wisdom was never there. The entire 70s was a lost decade as we did not progress an inch on any front. We did learn to disassemble, fix minor things, and re-assemble the F-6s and Mirages, but could not come up with major improvements in performance while at the same time Israel, South Africa and Switzerland were able to improve the performance of their Mirages significantly both structurally as well as in avionics and weaponry.
Than comes the 80s, the most fateful decade in the history of Pakistan and thanks to Zia, we went back completely in the lap of the unreliable United State. The PAC was already neglected, now even more as who needed F-6s and Mirages? PAF was readying to embrace its newly found love, the F-16s. This second Pak-US romance went on for less than a decade and than the F-16s were embargoed. Not only the new F-16s were not released despite the fact that payments were made, the PAF was denied from the spares and much needed upgrades for the earlier block F-16s. The PAF barely, I repeat, barely managed to keep her frontline air superiority F-16 fighters in the air. During the Kargil conflict, the PAF was forced to stop the CAP despite of the grave situation because the spares were running out very fast and their procurements from the ‘friendly’ nations were very slow and extremely expensive (Reference: Qaiser Tufail). In the 90s the F-16s were embargoed, yet the PAFs top brass utterly failed to recognize the gravity of the situation and instead of looking aggressively for other platforms, kept hoping that the embargoed F-16s would come one day. In order to mask their utter incompetence, the blame was thrown on the BBs government and Zardari for the failure of the Mirage 2000 induction. Who does not know that if the Pakistani armed forces decide to purchase something (within allocated budget), the role of the GoP is not more than a rubber stamp and those procurements are made regardless.
Humiliated, the PAF once again looked towards its most trusted ally, the China, and purchased F-7s in quantity to somehow maintain the bare minimum deterrent. Again, the induction of the F-7s was not the procurement of choice just like the F-6s in the lat 60s, but a desperate measure for survival. However, the difference between the 70s and 90s was in the strength of PAF’s adversary, the IAF, both in terms of numbers and technology. Anybody who lives in the real world knows that if God forbidden a conventional war would have broken in the 90s (or even today), what would have happened.
The problem with us is not the money, money would come from one source or other, in form of loans or whatever, the problem is the lack of consistency and lack of vision. During the late 80s early 90s we felt the heat, even our aging T-37 trainers were becoming a liability so we went ahead and started producing the K-8s with the help of Chinese. Soon after 9/11, as the hope of getting American military hardware became viable, we almost dropped the K-8 program like a hot potato. The K-8 that had to be manufactured in Pakistan and replace the entire fleet of the aging T-37 was reduced to a total number of twenty seven. While at the same time, Egypt signed up a contract with Chinese and established her own production line for improved K-8s. I am afraid that similar is going to happen to our plans for the JF-17 and the J-20 following this fresh induction of embargo-prone F-16s. Americans are not idiots, they know as much as we do that the F-16s are not absolutely required for the so-called war on terror. These are air-superiority fighters that could also be used against the ground targets during the night. However, there are many other systems available in the market that can be installed on the older F-16s, even on the Mirages to make them operable in the night against the ground targets. I may be wrong, but I see these F-16s as a potential threat to our JF-17 and to some extent J-20 program. Keeping the American unreliability in mind, I would rather use these funds on the JF-17/J-20 program and definitely go ahead and invest in Chinese JXX program.
That said, the threat of an Indian invasion (or retaliation) is imminent, and is not imminent it all depends on how well we play our cards. Few dozens of F-16s even blk-52 would not be able to save us if and when the war breaks out as the difference between the PAF and IAF both in terms of quantity and quality is ridiculously huge. The war can not be won with the F-16s, not even with hordes of JF-17s or J-10s (if we ever got them in such numbers) but with a successful diplomacy, a front where we are weakest and most vulnerable.
Soon after 1965 war, PAF or perhaps self-proclaimed FM Ayub did make some good decisions such as procuring F-6s from China and Mirages from France. These procurements were sort of interim or rather desperate measures since the hearts of our US-trained pilots were always in the US-made aircrafts. During their visits to the USA, these young Pakistani officers were not only trained to fly the American jets, they were also thoroughly brain washed about the supremacy and other crap of the American culture, their technology, and their training. By the end of the 70s, most senior PAF officers who had tasted the bitterness of the American sanctions during 60s and 70s were already retired and the US-trained and brain-washed officers were in the positions of making the critical decisions for the PAF.
Strangely enough, among the PAF circles, there was never a serious thought of establishing a robust military aviation infrastructure that would eventually make Pakistan partially or fully independent of reliance on foreign hardware. The most we did was to establish some re-build factories for the F-6 and Mirages at Kamra and thought we were done. Just across the border, HAL had manufactured Maruts in as early as 1960 and by the time PAC Kamra started ‘fixing’ the 50s era F-6 in 1972 and 60s era Mirages in 1974, the HAL was already license producing the Ajeets (Gnat) and MiG-21s. Even though we were late, still it was not too late to send hundreds of promising engineers to countries like China, and France and get them trained in various areas of military aviation so they could establish a vigorous aviation base in Pakistan but unfortunately, this wisdom was never there. The entire 70s was a lost decade as we did not progress an inch on any front. We did learn to disassemble, fix minor things, and re-assemble the F-6s and Mirages, but could not come up with major improvements in performance while at the same time Israel, South Africa and Switzerland were able to improve the performance of their Mirages significantly both structurally as well as in avionics and weaponry.
Than comes the 80s, the most fateful decade in the history of Pakistan and thanks to Zia, we went back completely in the lap of the unreliable United State. The PAC was already neglected, now even more as who needed F-6s and Mirages? PAF was readying to embrace its newly found love, the F-16s. This second Pak-US romance went on for less than a decade and than the F-16s were embargoed. Not only the new F-16s were not released despite the fact that payments were made, the PAF was denied from the spares and much needed upgrades for the earlier block F-16s. The PAF barely, I repeat, barely managed to keep her frontline air superiority F-16 fighters in the air. During the Kargil conflict, the PAF was forced to stop the CAP despite of the grave situation because the spares were running out very fast and their procurements from the ‘friendly’ nations were very slow and extremely expensive (Reference: Qaiser Tufail). In the 90s the F-16s were embargoed, yet the PAFs top brass utterly failed to recognize the gravity of the situation and instead of looking aggressively for other platforms, kept hoping that the embargoed F-16s would come one day. In order to mask their utter incompetence, the blame was thrown on the BBs government and Zardari for the failure of the Mirage 2000 induction. Who does not know that if the Pakistani armed forces decide to purchase something (within allocated budget), the role of the GoP is not more than a rubber stamp and those procurements are made regardless.
Humiliated, the PAF once again looked towards its most trusted ally, the China, and purchased F-7s in quantity to somehow maintain the bare minimum deterrent. Again, the induction of the F-7s was not the procurement of choice just like the F-6s in the lat 60s, but a desperate measure for survival. However, the difference between the 70s and 90s was in the strength of PAF’s adversary, the IAF, both in terms of numbers and technology. Anybody who lives in the real world knows that if God forbidden a conventional war would have broken in the 90s (or even today), what would have happened.
The problem with us is not the money, money would come from one source or other, in form of loans or whatever, the problem is the lack of consistency and lack of vision. During the late 80s early 90s we felt the heat, even our aging T-37 trainers were becoming a liability so we went ahead and started producing the K-8s with the help of Chinese. Soon after 9/11, as the hope of getting American military hardware became viable, we almost dropped the K-8 program like a hot potato. The K-8 that had to be manufactured in Pakistan and replace the entire fleet of the aging T-37 was reduced to a total number of twenty seven. While at the same time, Egypt signed up a contract with Chinese and established her own production line for improved K-8s. I am afraid that similar is going to happen to our plans for the JF-17 and the J-20 following this fresh induction of embargo-prone F-16s. Americans are not idiots, they know as much as we do that the F-16s are not absolutely required for the so-called war on terror. These are air-superiority fighters that could also be used against the ground targets during the night. However, there are many other systems available in the market that can be installed on the older F-16s, even on the Mirages to make them operable in the night against the ground targets. I may be wrong, but I see these F-16s as a potential threat to our JF-17 and to some extent J-20 program. Keeping the American unreliability in mind, I would rather use these funds on the JF-17/J-20 program and definitely go ahead and invest in Chinese JXX program.
That said, the threat of an Indian invasion (or retaliation) is imminent, and is not imminent it all depends on how well we play our cards. Few dozens of F-16s even blk-52 would not be able to save us if and when the war breaks out as the difference between the PAF and IAF both in terms of quantity and quality is ridiculously huge. The war can not be won with the F-16s, not even with hordes of JF-17s or J-10s (if we ever got them in such numbers) but with a successful diplomacy, a front where we are weakest and most vulnerable.
Windjammer
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2009
- Messages
- 41,319
- Reaction score
- 181
- Country
- Location
All the Air Chief said in the press conference was that Israel has been approaching through some back channels, offering to sell military equipment. !! He didn't exactly hand out a list of offers. As for the link, watch any Pakistani news channel.
AZADPAKISTAN2009
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2009
- Messages
- 37,669
- Reaction score
- 68
- Country
- Location
@qsark
Very nice post ... I think you just took us flash back mode from 50-current stage of Pakistan Airforce
I was not aware how bad and critical the situation was with F16 weapons embargoes
Now I think Pakistan Airforce is spreading the focus on multiple platforms
Plateform #1
But I think we have got ample spare parts and MLU from US so out 41 F16 A/C (MLU block C/D level) + 32 F16 C/D(Due to Arrive 2010)
Plateform #2
JF17 (Block 1 , Block 2)...
Plateform #3
J10B (36)..
Plateform #4
Mirages ROSE
Is a major boost to Pakistan Airforce Capabilities
After 2010 Pakistani Airforce , we can say has made up for the lost decade.
I completely agree 100% with your vision that yes we also need to keep investigating new avenues , engines research , avionics research so we can start producing these parts locally when we are not embargoed.
But you also have to understand , Pakistan of 2010 is major Non Nato Ally - its far cry from in 60/70's when we were just another asset.
W.r.t the diplomatic focus, well Pakistan is trying very hard we all can see that every time we have talks the Indian delegates just give us the cold shoulder ...
How can we talk peace when 3-4 rouge people ruine peace talks. I mean We all know that what happened in Mumbai - literally derailed all the positive work that was done for years and years.
Yes that is the biggest hurdle in peace efforts
Pakistan is in tough situation , becasue our neighbour keeps buying 10-20X the weapons then their needs and its a worisome trend not only to Pakistan but to destabalization of whole region
Very nice post ... I think you just took us flash back mode from 50-current stage of Pakistan Airforce
I was not aware how bad and critical the situation was with F16 weapons embargoes
Now I think Pakistan Airforce is spreading the focus on multiple platforms
Plateform #1
But I think we have got ample spare parts and MLU from US so out 41 F16 A/C (MLU block C/D level) + 32 F16 C/D(Due to Arrive 2010)
Plateform #2
JF17 (Block 1 , Block 2)...
Plateform #3
J10B (36)..
Plateform #4
Mirages ROSE
Is a major boost to Pakistan Airforce Capabilities
After 2010 Pakistani Airforce , we can say has made up for the lost decade.
I completely agree 100% with your vision that yes we also need to keep investigating new avenues , engines research , avionics research so we can start producing these parts locally when we are not embargoed.
But you also have to understand , Pakistan of 2010 is major Non Nato Ally - its far cry from in 60/70's when we were just another asset.
W.r.t the diplomatic focus, well Pakistan is trying very hard we all can see that every time we have talks the Indian delegates just give us the cold shoulder ...
How can we talk peace when 3-4 rouge people ruine peace talks. I mean We all know that what happened in Mumbai - literally derailed all the positive work that was done for years and years.
Yes that is the biggest hurdle in peace efforts
Pakistan is in tough situation , becasue our neighbour keeps buying 10-20X the weapons then their needs and its a worisome trend not only to Pakistan but to destabalization of whole region
Last edited:
qsaark
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2008
- Messages
- 2,638
- Reaction score
- 0
Khan Ji, maybe its my age, or my experience, or my little knowledge of history that I could tolerate to be called a Dog while you could not. But being called a Dog and accept it as such not in literal but indicative meanings(though I did condemn the generalization) is less pathetic and disgusting than the undeniable fact that our successive regimes have indeed been acting like the Dogs of the USA. It’s the nature of a Dog to sacrifice itself for its master in return of very little or not at all; this definitely is not the behavior of a partner or an ally. We offered our unilateral services to our American masters back in 1950s and 60s (there was a reason why self-proclaimed FM Ayub had to pen down ‘Friends not Masters’
, in 80s and now in 2000s in return of nothing but harm to our own country.At any rate, if my words have caused you discomfort, I seek apology.
Storm Force
BANNED
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2009
- Messages
- 5,100
- Reaction score
- -66
- Country
- Location
Theses F16s x 14 ARE NOTHING more than the REMAINING 14 frm the TOKEN ORDER OF 18 F16/52s ordered around 2 yeasrs ago.
USA promised delivery of 18 F16s by 2011.
The story has been TAKEN completely out of context LIKE some big KID at XMAS seeing a neighbour dressed in santa claus outfit SHOUTING " I SAW SANTA"
HAD there been any such new order of 14 fighters then plz ask
1. WHY CANCEL THE ORDER OF 36 asnd half the order after earthquake.
2. Why no offical confirnmationfrom USA or GOP
3. WHY NO STATEMENT AT THIS WEEKS official strategic dialogue meeting/.
You people go so excited and ADD 2 + 2 makes 50
its sounds DESPERATE and funny sometimes
USA promised delivery of 18 F16s by 2011.
The story has been TAKEN completely out of context LIKE some big KID at XMAS seeing a neighbour dressed in santa claus outfit SHOUTING " I SAW SANTA"
HAD there been any such new order of 14 fighters then plz ask
1. WHY CANCEL THE ORDER OF 36 asnd half the order after earthquake.
2. Why no offical confirnmationfrom USA or GOP
3. WHY NO STATEMENT AT THIS WEEKS official strategic dialogue meeting/.
You people go so excited and ADD 2 + 2 makes 50
its sounds DESPERATE and funny sometimes
Windjammer
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2009
- Messages
- 41,319
- Reaction score
- 181
- Country
- Location
It's not quite as simple as that, some US Do Da announced few weeks earlier that Pakistan will receive 14 F-16s by June, where as the PAF Chief today announced that US has agreed to supply further 14 F-16s to Pakistan, (where as) the delivery of new Block-52s will commence from June and completed by December this year.
If any thing, it's keeping our Eastern neighbor guessing and on edge.
AZADPAKISTAN2009
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2009
- Messages
- 37,669
- Reaction score
- 68
- Country
- Location
Reference:
fullstory
Rezaul
Islamabad, Mar 27 (PTI) Pakistan is negotiating with the US to get fourteen F-16 combat jets in addition to the 18 fighters whose delivery will begin later this year, air force chief Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman said today.
The Pakistan Air Force will start receiving a batch of 18 of the latest version of F-16 jets fitted with beyond visual range (BVR) missile systems by June.
Pakistan has been negotiating with the US to get another lot of 14 F-16s of the same version and other modern gadgets and weapons, Suleman said.
"Our wish list is unending but we are heading with a realistic approach," he told a news briefing at the Air Headquarters here.
He was responding to a question about the PAF's wish list for the US.
Suleman did not disclose the number of BVR systems being acquired from the US.
Pakistan Airforce: 2010
F16 A/B (MLU Block C/D upgrade) ~41 (BVR Being upgraded)
F16 C/D ~32 (BVR) (could excercise option of 18 more)
JF17 Thunder 2 Squadrons ~36 (BVR)
J10B ~ Testing phase Delivery 2015
Mirages ~192 (BVR, New Radars)
Chinese Planes ~200
AWACs ~4 + 1 trainer
4 Air -Air Refuel Tankers ~4
Last edited:
Nahraf
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2010
- Messages
- 1,508
- Reaction score
- 0
We want Nuclear and Free Trade deals from United States. We did not get them. What we got was 14 used F-16s in other just "peanuts". In larger scheme of things 14 F-16 does not matter. We need 62 more F-16 block 60. In 1979, the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, and President Carter offered Pakistan $325 million in aid over three years. Zia rejected this as "peanuts."
AZADPAKISTAN2009
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2009
- Messages
- 37,669
- Reaction score
- 68
- Country
- Location
We will take the 14 F16 additional planes, and negotiate power plant creation projects in Pakistan as well - Pakistan and US are in this for LONG strategic based needs in Afghanistan - we just got started
Obviously it snot 56 billion dollars we lost since 2002 ... but we are nato allies so we have to be patient and develop strategic cooperation
If we caughed up things in one shot , Manmoohan ji will faint and pag utar jai gi ...
If they made a big announcement , heart failiure ho jata
Such strategic talks are leaked out slowly over period of 3-5 months slowly bit by bit to reduce the shock effect ...
You know nice and easy ...
14 cobras there .....
18 ...F16 C/D here...
14 ...F16 C/D there ....
18 options on F16 C/D ....with statement just by the way .. in 2011
few energy plants here
few enrgy plants there ...
few BVR here .. few BVR there ...
Some P3 orions here ... few p3 orions there ...
1 OHP here and 5 OHP there ...
little nuclear power plant help here
little nuclear power plant talks there ...
5 thermal power plant projects here
5 thermal power projects there ...
Nice and slowly ...
:
:Pakistan is in Afghanistan , US is in afghanistan - nice and easy the main thing is to capture and remove taliban out so we can have economic boom in region
No need to hurry ...
step by step
I see happy ppl in the picture
And to be honest the sonner we have electricty in Pakistan the better - its a great oppourtunity to make lasting impression with Pakistan if we get our electricity crisis solved , its our main concern
And I think the strategic talks were very positive
Last edited:
Similar threads
