Children of the Indus

Sliver said:

The OP says Pakistan is a child of Indus while differentiating the culture of of the Gangetic plains

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He is correct in that assertion. Ganges is entirely distinct from Indus despite it's pathetic attempts at bootlicking Indus. The fact is there are threads informing many cultures that may have some common roots. No culture, no civilization ever was nurtured inside a test tube. All cultures whilst being distinct overlap with others at so many differant levels.

IVC was only discovered in 1900s. Prior to that there was non of this yearning for Indus. These very Indian's who had not even developed the concept of unitarian state in 1900 were oblivious to IVC as they were of the backside of the moon.

What we have here is in the modern age competing societies try to showcase their great past in order to show off, to proffer ancient greatness and in doing so stand above the ordinary. In the race for historical oscars the Ganga India has nothing. I mean nothing, nothing other than hanging exposed balls betweeen skinny legs, hanging off trees in the jungles of the thick tropical jungles of Ganga having even failed to learn how to sew cloth which is why the Sari - a minimalist piece of cloth wrapped around the as*s was still king until 1980s.

It is these people of the Ganga and even more redundant Indians from the South who now look around and find in far away Indus Valley, a dry semi arid region, a cradle of history, a place which they now place their grubby hands to prove to the world "we were not savages". How exactly a jungly Orrissan, a Bengali, a Assamese, a Tamil and other hotch potch of peoples even claim on a land they have never seen or most likely will never see and know even less about is beyond me. Bad news for them, Harappa, Mohenjo Daro, Mehr Garh are in, well Pakistan.

What next? The Pakistani's might as well claim Greece because the Greeks came to Pakistan during Alexanders time. Illusions of Hellenic greatness?

And are you Indian American?

Kaptaan said:

He is correct in that assertion. Ganges is entirely distinct from Indus despite it's pathetic attempts at bootlicking Indus. The fact is there are threads informing many cultures that may have some common roots. No culture, no civilization ever was nurtured inside a test tube. All cultures whilst being distinct overlap with others at so many differant levels.

IVC was only discovered in 1900s. Prior to that there was non of this yearning for Indus. These very Indian's who had not even developed the concept of unitarian state in 1900 were oblivious to IVC as they were of the backside of the moon.

All we have is in the modern age where competing societies try to showcase their great past in order to compete with other societies to proffer ancient greatness and in doing so stand above the ordinary. In the race for historical oscars the Ganga India's have nothing. I mean nothing, nothing other than hanging exposed balls betweeen skinny legs, hanging off trees in the jungles of the thick tropical jungles of Ganga have even failed to even learn how sew cloth which is why the Sari - a minimalist piece of cloth arapped around was still king until 1980s.

It ios these people of the Ganga and even more redundent Indioans from the South who now look around and find in far away Indus Valley, a dry semi arid region a place which they can now place their grubby hands to prove to the world "we were not savages". How exactly a jungly Orrissan, a Bengali, a Assamese, a Tamil and other hotch potch of peoples can even claim on a land they have never seen or most likely will never see and know even less about it. Until they found out Harappa, Mohenjo Daro, Mehr Garh are in, well Pakistan.

What next? The Pakistani's might as well claim Greece because the Greeks came to Pakistan during Alexanders time.

And are you Indian American?

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You and me have different ideas of personhood and cultures. there is a lot of bigotry, racism, arrogance in that post you just wrote. you will probably not even acknowledge that let alone figure out ways to reduce that. Which is fine - its your way of life.
Its not mine.

@Kaptaan

First relating to Brahmanda Purana, one of the major eighteen Puranas, it mentions 64 Shakthi Peetha of Goddess Parvati in the Bharat or Greater India including present day India, Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka and parts of southern Pakistan. Another text which gives a listing of these shrines, is the Shakthi Peetha Stotram, written by Adi Shankara, the 9th-century Hindu philosopher.[10]
from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakti_Peetha
(I dont understand much of that but I am still putting it all together: my current interest is to know the progression of people from the ancient Babylon/Sumer towards east via Andronovo culture, Mehrgar, Harappa and the Vedic age )

parts of Pakistan have been together with India centuries before Islamism spread through Pakistan. They were eventually wiped out and you are finding it hard to see yourselves associated with "jungly Orrissan, a Bengali, a Assamese, a Tamil and other hotch potch of peoples can even claim on a land they have never seen or most likely will never see and know even less about it".

The area that is now Pakistan was actually filled with temples, peoples with vedic scriptures and knwledge as their religious base for most of the time before the advent of islam. the holy pillgrimages of these peoples included parts of Pakistan. so they already knew their history and did not have to wait "Until they found out Harappa, Mohenjo Daro, Mehr Garh are in, well Pakistan."

I am interested to see what you know about the following:
Before the advent of Islam in Pakistan, what do you think were the beliefs of the people in that area were? you might want to say Buddhism alone.. what about before that?

if you listen to Scot Chestworth's podcasts you will be able to deduce how the evolution of peoples from "sumeria/babylon" continued both eastward and westward.

Did you know that the gods of Ancient Iran, and Ancient India were the same? this shows the continuation of peoples from Iran to India and beyond. Pakistan is smack in the middle of this it was more a cultural center of these people.

@Sliver

1. Are you Indian-American?

2. There was no Ancient India.That term is recently constructed and is being "retro-fitted". If on the off chance I am wrong please produce me one primary source that uses the term "India". Do not give me other terms that you ascribe as "India". I mean the actual term "India" and that means what it means today. Until you do that I am not going to waste my time with you.

3. This mythical "Bharat" that you have conjued up, relying on Hindu myth is not India or even Greater India. I might as well find some name from antiquity, equate that to Pakistan and then plish my ego by stretching it further into "Greater Pakistan".

Jeez. Your Indian. Answer to No. 1 is not needed.

Sliver said:

@Kaptaan

First relating to Brahmanda Purana, one of the major eighteen Puranas, it mentions 64 Shakthi Peetha of Goddess Parvati in the Bharat or Greater India including present day India, Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka and parts of southern Pakistan. Another text which gives a listing of these shrines, is the Shakthi Peetha Stotram, written by Adi Shankara, the 9th-century Hindu philosopher.[10]
from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakti_Peetha
(I dont understand much of that but I am still putting it all together: my current interest is to know the progression of people from the ancient Babylon/Sumer towards east via Andronovo culture, Mehrgar, Harappa and the Vedic age )

parts of Pakistan have been together with India centuries before Islamism spread through Pakistan. They were eventually wiped out and you are finding it hard to see yourselves associated with "jungly Orrissan, a Bengali, a Assamese, a Tamil and other hotch potch of peoples can even claim on a land they have never seen or most likely will never see and know even less about it".

The area that is now Pakistan was actually filled with temples, peoples with vedic scriptures and knwledge as their religious base for most of the time before the advent of islam. the holy pillgrimages of these peoples included parts of Pakistan. so they already knew their history and did not have to wait "Until they found out Harappa, Mohenjo Daro, Mehr Garh are in, well Pakistan."

I am interested to see what you know about the following:
Before the advent of Islam in Pakistan, what do you think were the beliefs of the people in that area were? you might want to say Buddhism alone.. what about before that?

if you listen to Scot Chestworth's podcasts you will be able to deduce how the evolution of peoples from "sumeria/babylon" continued both eastward and westward.

Did you know that the gods of Ancient Iran, and Ancient India were the same? this shows the continuation of peoples from Iran to India and beyond. Pakistan is smack in the middle of this it was more a cultural center of these people.

Click to expand...

all your assertions are based on religion, ok. For the sake of the argument we consider your views as gospel truth, then can we consider the French and the Spaniards the same? Or the Iraqis and Iranians coz they share a common border and religion for millenniums

P.S you are awesome , pplz go through this whole thread and come up with something new. Mr. Sharma

@Sliver You are aware there are Hindu temples, Hindu cultures found east of India. In Bangladesh, Burma [Myanmar], Thailand, Laos, Indonesian Archipelago including the famous Bali Island. In Fact South East Asia has huge impress of Hindu temples and cultures with even languages having heavy Hindu influence.

Now why, I wonder don't you Indian's spend any energy in spreading your muck in those regions? Simple there is not much in way of ancient history you can brag in front of the West. Therefore your forced to "bootlick" the Indus instead, because that is where all the historical action is. My quote again.

Ganges is entirely distinct from Indus despite it's pathetic attempts at bootlicking Indus.

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The need for Ganga India to look West and Indus Pakistan is explained.


Did you forget this Greater India?



Largest Hindu temple in the world all the way in Cambodia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angkor_Wat



I only wish you Ganga Lords looked East to Greater India in Bangladesh, Burma, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Malaysia, Indonesia, Bali all the way to Borneo.

And Sri Lanka, Nepal.

And finally - a bas*tard can do what he wants, wish what he wants but he can't change his progenitor. Indian's are always going to be Children of Ganga. Pakistani's always Children of Indus. Both flow in opposite directions. Both empty in differant sea.

@Kaptaan Let me know when you would like to discuss one on one and we can do that quicker.

Now why, I wonder don't you Indian's spend any energy in spreading your muck in those regions? Simple there is not much in way of ancient history you can brag in front of the West. Therefore your forced to "bootlick" the Indus instead, because that is where all the historical action is. My quote again.

First, I am a history buff and that too ancient history. I have no interest in religion wars or establishing supremacy of one religion over the other.
second. my only issue in the OP was this: Pakistan cannot claim to be the "only" people of Indus that argument is flawed.

I am currently researching the links between the ancient Iranian and Indian culture. this predates almost all of the existing religions till date. Please remember "culture" is not always "religion". for example, Bengali culture is different from Pakistani culture now but their religion is same. however, there are some aspects of the culture (before the separation) which are common. Now, why do you think the names for various gods is same in Ancient Iranian and Ancient Indian. All I am saying is that these people have claim to a common history.

What people make their present is up to them. but you cannot deny anyone their history

And finally - a bas*tard can do what he wants, wish what he wants but he can't change his progenitor. Indian's are always going to be Children of Ganga. Pakistani's always Children of Indus. Both flow in opposite directions. Both empty in differant sea

you calling anyone bastards is deplorable. but i have seen how racist you get when you make a point so I am not expecting that your civility will be any better next time around. Pakistan are children of the Indus.. you cannot claim anything about any other peoples just because you want them to be from a different ancestry.

@Mentee you should probably read a little more history. can you and @Kaptaan please give me a chronology of your area from circa 2000 BC until the advent of Islam? what were the practices? what were the cultures? how different are these from the cultures of the people in your vicinity at that time?

Sliver said:

@Kaptaan Let me know when you would like to discuss one on one and we can do that quicker.

Now why, I wonder don't you Indian's spend any energy in spreading your muck in those regions? Simple there is not much in way of ancient history you can brag in front of the West. Therefore your forced to "bootlick" the Indus instead, because that is where all the historical action is. My quote again.

First, I am a history buff and that too ancient history. I have no interest in religion wars or establishing supremacy of one religion over the other.
second. my only issue in the OP was this: Pakistan cannot claim to be the "only" people of Indus that argument is flawed.

I am currently researching the links between the ancient Iranian and Indian culture. this predates almost all of the existing religions till date. Please remember "culture" is not always "religion". for example, Bengali culture is different from Pakistani culture now but their religion is same. however, there are some aspects of the culture (before the separation) which are common. Now, why do you think the names for various gods is same in Ancient Iranian and Ancient Indian. All I am saying is that these people have claim to a common history.

What people make their present is up to them. but you cannot deny anyone their history

And finally - a bas*tard can do what he wants, wish what he wants but he can't change his progenitor. Indian's are always going to be Children of Ganga. Pakistani's always Children of Indus. Both flow in opposite directions. Both empty in differant sea

you calling anyone bastards is deplorable. but i have seen how racist you get when you make a point so I am not expecting that your civility will be any better next time around. Pakistan are children of the Indus.. you cannot claim anything about any other peoples just because you want them to be from a different ancestry.

@Mentee you should probably read a little more history. can you and @Kaptaan please give me a chronology of your area from circa 2000 BC until the advent of Islam? what were the practices? what were the cultures? how different are these from the cultures of the people in your vicinity at that time?

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Mr. Sharma you aren't getting it, are you? THERE WAS NO ANCIENT INDIA TO BEGIN WITH .PERIOD
Now first clear your delusions of ancient India and then we'll talk. Repetition of same thing doesn't make it credible

Sliver said:

what were the practices? what were the cultures

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Whatever they were - rest assured they can be easily shoehorned into "Hindu" or like I said "retrofitted". It's very simple and even made more simple by the fact that even Supreme Court of India could not define Hinduism.

"When we think of the Hindu religion, unlike other religions in the world, the Hindu religion does not claim any one prophet; it does not worship any one god; it does not subscribe to any one dogma; it does not believe in any one philosophic concept; it does not follow any one set of religious rites or performances; in fact, it does not appear to satisfy the narrow traditional features of any religion or creed. It may broadly be described as a way of life and nothing more."

and best of all. First Prime Minister of India Jawaharlal Nehru on Hinduism.

"Hinduism is 'all things to all men"

This means whatever practices that our ancestors followed will be in eyes of nationalist Hindutva Indian's be manipulated into Hindu". They will see the dots and join them together to draw what they want - made more easy by the fact that Hinduism is like liquid. You can make it fit any vessel. Further even if some of us followed practices that might bear some resemblance to Indian's today, that hardly shakes the land of Indus. Vedic religion first evolved in the Indus region then moved into the thick jungles of the Ganga bringing much needed civilization to that tract of savages.

And as I said before what about the more (recent) and even present Hinduim as seen in Bangla, Burma, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Malaysia, Indonesia, Borneo and Sri Lanka?

Then again those regions don't have Harrapa, Mohenjo Daro, Mehr Garh, Taxila, Sirkap etc do they? That is why Ganga won't leave Indus alone but is entirely happy to forget Irrawaddy, Mekong etc.

Mentee said:

THERE WAS NO ANCIENT INDIA TO BEGIN WITH .PERIOD
Now first clear your delusions of ancient India and then we'll talk

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I already asked him but he spat out some myths about Bharat and then equated that myth with India or sorrry "Greater India". Delusional .....

Mentee said:

Mr. Sharma you aren't getting it, are you? THERE WAS NO ANCIENT INDIA TO BEGIN WITH .PERIOD
Now first clear your delusions of ancient India and then we'll talk. Repetition of same thing doesn't make it credible

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as I said.. I am not bothered about the politcial or religious battles of the present day locations between you both. All I said was you cannot deny the history of the location to the people who have lived there and migrated or lived there and converted.

the gods, practices, rituals of the zoroastrian people was similar to the ancient Indian people (Indian - is the name of the peoples as how the historians say it). the similarity emerges due to shared traditions.

So shall we go ahed with the chronological order of the present day peoples of Pakistan starting from 2000 BC until the advent of Islam?

Sliver said:

ancient Indian people (Indian - is the name of the peoples as how the historians say it). the similarity

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You are beyond repair Mr Sharma
@Kaptaan sir report him and move along

Kaptaan said:

Whatever they were - rest assured they can be easily shoehorned into "Hindu" or like I said "retrofitted". It's very simple and even made more simple by the fact that even Supreme Court of India could not define Hinduism.

"When we think of the Hindu religion, unlike other religions in the world, the Hindu religion does not claim any one prophet; it does not worship any one god; it does not subscribe to any one dogma; it does not believe in any one philosophic concept; it does not follow any one set of religious rites or performances; in fact, it does not appear to satisfy the narrow traditional features of any religion or creed. It may broadly be described as a way of life and nothing more."

and best of all. First Prime Minister of India Jawaharlal Nehru on Hinduism.

"Hinduism is 'all things to all men"

This means whatever practices that our ancestors followed will be in eyes of nationalist Hindutva Indian's be manipulated into Hindu". They will see the dots and join them together to draw what they want - made more easy by the fact that Hinduism is like liquid. You can make it fit any vessel. Further even if some of us followed practices that might bear some resemblance to Indian's today, that hardly shakes the land of Indus. Vedic religion first evolved in the Indus region then moved into the thick jungles of the Ganga bringing much needed civilization to that tract of savages.

And as I said before what about the more (recent) and even present Hinduim as seen in Bangla, Burma, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Malaysia, Indonesia, Borneo and Sri Lanka?

Then again those regions don't have Harrapa, Mohenjo Daro, Mehr Garh, Taxila, Sirkap etc do they? That is why Ganga won't leave Indus alone but is entirely happy to forget Irrawaddy, Mekong etc.


I already asked him but he spat out some myths about Bharat and then equated that myth with India or sorrry "Greater India". Delusional .....

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lets look at the retrofit issue.
here is an interesting example of the ancient gods of the people in that region:
Indra is the most important god worshiped by the Rigvedic tribes and is the son of Dyaus and the goddess Savasi.

The same Indra is also a god in the Iranian texts of the Avesta.

I am talking about circa 3 century BC or before.
How can this be a retrofit?


Another aspect of the retrofit Issue:
I could care less if this belongs to the Hindu religion or whatever faith that is in there. All I am saying is that there is a shared history here that is clearly evidenced. you cannot deny the history to the people. You can certainly claim a different present (from the advent of Islam) and "claim" you are better. but you cannot deny shared history of the place.

something more of interest:
Indra is supposed to be a connoisseur of an ephedrine laden drink called soma - basically a stimulant as well as a way for getting high. (this plant is endemic to the moutains in Afghanistan - Merhgarh/Andronovo culture). Indra is son of Dyaus.

The Greek god Dynoysus is a god of wine, alcohol and generally "getting high".

Why cannot the Hindu people claim the East Asian as their descendents?
Honestly, I havent gone that far yet. I am still learning/ understanding the Andronovo/Mehrgarh culture and its implications on the movement of the peoples across the region. But I doubt that the culture of that time spread to East asia so soon. it might even be a later development.

Mentee said:

sir report him and move along

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There is no point in wasting time with these guy's. If they want to lick our balls. Go ahead. I can't understand them - they have Ganga. Thet swim in it. They shit in it. They worship it. They "bury" themselves in it. They purefy themselves in it. They call it holy. Ganga is that and all. In addition maybe over 600 million of them (majority) either live on it's plains or surrounding watershed.

If they (Ganga Dwellers) want to bootlick Indus/Pakistan. Let them. In fact should we feel slight sense of bluster? I think so!

Sliver said:

@KaptaanFirst relating to Brahmanda Purana, one of the major eighteen Puranas, it mentions 64 Shakthi Peetha of Goddess Parvati in the Bharat or Greater India including present day India, Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka and parts of southern Pakistan. Another text which gives a listing of these shrines, is the Shakthi Peetha Stotram, written by Adi Shankara, the 9th-century Hindu philosopher.[10]
from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakti_Peetha
(I dont understand much of that but I am still putting it all together: my current interest is to know the progression of people from the ancient Babylon/Sumer towards east via Andronovo culture, Mehrgar, Harappa and the Vedic age )

Click to expand...

Its an interesting story- There was a King Daksha, who had a daughter "Sati"- Sati was incarnation of Goddess of Power(Shakti means power)- She falls into love with Shiva(The third in trinity and the one tasked with destruction of world- which is contradictory in itself as he is the one saving everyone's asses when there is real trouble )- Shiva lives in wilderness and doesn't associates with passions of life- However Sati convinces him to marry and marries him against the wishes of her father-

Now this Daksha is very angry and vows to teach his daughter a lesson- He organizes a huge Yagya and invites all Devas and Gods, Goddesses and great saints but he doesn't invite Shiva- Sati on knowing this wants to go there but Shiva cautions her against this- But she is stubborn and goes anyway- at arriving in her own house, she is disrespected and her father abuses her husband calling him savage uncivilized and similar insults- to this she vows to end her life right there as her husband was dishonored and steps in the Hawan Kund(the fire where offerings are made in the yagya) she is badly burnt and dies- Now some of Shiva's associates who had accompanied Sati come crying back to Shiva and narrates everything- Shiva gets very angry and It is very bad when he gets angry- He reaches the place fuming- steps into the fire and takes out the burnt body of sati- he is so raged that he starts dancing in anger which causes Sati's body parts to fly all across the universe- later the other gods some how gets Shiva under control before he ended up destroying half of the world and all of Daksha's kingdom-

It is these body parts of Sati which fell on various places are known as Shaktipeeths(Places of power)- I have one just 3km from my house and Its the eye of Goddess- All of this is mythology but very much part of the History If one wants to understand Ancient Indian history completely as It helps in understanding It better-

Kaptaan said:

How exactly a jungly Orrissan, a Bengali, a Assamese, a Tamil and other hotch potch of peoples even claim on a land they have never seen or most likely will never see and know even less about is beyond me.

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Mind your language.

We don't have to claim something which we have been following since last thousands of years.