Vixen-1000E AESA with IRST showcased at IDEAS

[messiach]

Good available option. Yes + ToT.

Hi,

Thank you for a wonderful insight---now I have to translate it into english---.

Seems like the western manufacturers have taken too long to capture the JF17 market with a potent product---and that has given the chinese time to get their act together.

So---my question to you is---and before I ask it---I will give you an example---. While working as a tech here in the u s in a sports car workshop in florida---the boss asked me to replace the seat belt anchor----. I looked at the mechanism---there was a spring clip that had come off---I slipped it on and it started working right---and I told my boss---.

His question was " would you bet your life on it---"---I was taken aback momentarily---then thought about what he had said---and then replied " NO "---he says you are right---I cannot take the liability.

There was a reason the spring clip slipped---the little detent that held it back had worn out and under pressure the spring would come off---and in case of an accident---you can understand the liability and consequences---.

Now I go back to my question---" between the western and the chinese---can the Paf bet its life and the life on the nation on this AESA system ".

Hi,

Thank you for a wonderful insight---now I have to translate it into english---.

Seems like the western manufacturers have taken too long to capture the JF17 market with a potent product---and that has given the chinese time to get their act together.

So---my question to you is--- ---" between the western and the chinese---can the Paf bet its life and the life on the nation on this chinese AESA system ".

 

[MastanKhan]

Good available option. Yes + ToT.

Hi,

Thank you.

That would then put a dent into the plans of the italians to sell their system for the JF17---. They have been supposedly trying real hard to get their foot into the door.

Which would mean that they will have to raise their game and bring about a way better package.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Hi,

Thank you.

That would then put a dent into the plans of the italians to sell their system for the JF17---. They have been supposedly trying real hard to get their foot into the door.

Which would mean that they will have to raise their game and bring about a way better package.

It's very tough to compete with the Chinese when they can offer sound technology at competitive prices. The Chinese industry benefits from a level of domestic scale that no other country - bar the U.S. - can tap into, hence massive R&D investments tend to get distributed well. To compete, Leonardo would have to leverage its partnerships (e.g. Elettronica) and other product lines (Kronos land-based radars) to pull in the PAF. Perhaps even tap into credit or financing help.

 

[MastanKhan]

It's very tough to compete with the Chinese when they can offer sound technology at competitive prices. The Chinese industry benefits from a level of domestic scale that no other country - bar the U.S. - can tap into, hence massive R&D investments tend to get distributed well. To compete, Leonardo would have to leverage its partnerships (e.g. Elettronica) and other product lines (Kronos land-based radars) to pull in the PAF. Perhaps even tap into credit or financing help.

Hi,

It has not been time / battle tested. The aircraft JF17 OTOH hand has gone thru its paces in the last 10 years.

But I don't think that the Paf would be in an experimental position with the chinese aesa---.

It has to come down to the total overall EW package

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Hi,

It has not been time / battle tested. The aircraft JF17 OTOH hand has gone thru its paces in the last 10 years.

But I don't think that the Paf would be in an experimental position with the chinese aesa---.

It has to come down to the total overall EW package

I wonder if the PAF could 'pilot' the Italian and Chinese suites separately for a couple of years, and then decide. Yes, separate avionics add logistical issues, but besides that, they are essentially the same fighter.

 

[Taygibay]

@Khafee---I do not know what sort of participation does the UAE has in the JF17 program----but if it does not have any----it surely did miss the boat and missed on a great opportunity.

The UAE's way of doing things got them two excellent platforms
at the very top of today's air forces and more importantly adequate
to defeating the most likely enemy in their geo-political conditions.
Plus, one of the two generates revenues back!

They have very little to gain by partaking in the Thunder exception
made of their special relationship with Pakistan which is why they
show up on occasion and welcome PAF to Al-Dhafra's ATLC.
[ Congrats by the way Khafee my friend for the quality of the current edition.
The buzz about it in proper circles is already impressive enough. ]

Aside which, let's remember that the quality of mathematical work
is subjacent to the physical functions. The former is what most diffe-
rentiates the RBE-2 whether in old school or fresh style variant. And
while talking of physical functions, let's also remember that a radar
AESA or PESA or older with a swash plate scans further out its sides,
yes but slower than a stationary antennae through each field.

Last, we should think about the political value of an export client in
the long term which is why integrating a part not found in PAF could
make sense. Such deals are rarely purely military affairs.

Good day all, Tay.

 

[MastanKhan]

The UAE's way of doing things got them two excellent platforms
at the very top of today's air forces and more importantly adequate
to defeating the most likely enemy in their geo-political conditions.
Plus, one of the two generates revenues back!

They have very little to gain by partaking in the Thunder exception
made of their special relationship with Pakistan which is why they
show up on occasion and welcome PAF to Al-Dhafra's ATLC.
[ Congrats by the way Khafee my friend for the quality of the current edition.
The buzz about it in proper circles is already impressive enough. ]

Aside which, let's remember that the quality of mathematical work
subjacent to the physical functions. The former is what most diffe-
rentiates the RBE-2 whether in old school or fresh style variant. And
while talking of physical functions, let's also remember that a radar
AESA or PESA or older with a swash plate scans further out its sides,
yes but slower than a stationary antennae through each field.

Last, we should think about the political value of an export client in
the long term which is why integrating a part not found in PAF could
make sense. Such deals are rarely purely military affairs.

Good day all, Tay.

Hi,

What difference does that make if they have two excellent aircraft---does that mean that they don't need to learn.

You and I are talking about two different things---. Maybe you need to ask @Khafee if it would be worth it.

 

[The SC]

It's very tough to compete with the Chinese when they can offer sound technology at competitive prices. The Chinese industry benefits from a level of domestic scale that no other country - bar the U.S. - can tap into, hence massive R&D investments tend to get distributed well. To compete, Leonardo would have to leverage its partnerships (e.g. Elettronica) and other product lines (Kronos land-based radars) to pull in the PAF. Perhaps even tap into credit or financing help.

Italians can not be trusted as much as the Chinese.. about 3 months ago they have suspended delivery of F-16 spare parts to Egypt for some Italian tourist killed in Egypt , even though the Egyptians had provided all the data relative to his murder.. the Egyptians also asked for similar data to be provided from Italian police about 2 Egyptians murdered in Italy.. and this request has apparently triggered the sanctions decided by the Italian Parliament.. conclusion ; they also live and believe in double standards, but they show it only at the weakest point or time of their adversary.. the same as the French in many ways.. So one got to be careful..

 

[Tank131]

Italy has had very close and strong dealings with PAF for years includimg providing ToT for its radars. Heck, every fighter in PAF not named JF-17 or f-16 is flying with an Italian radar. Question is will selex offer something good. Vixen by itself wont close the deal, its not even a premier radar (the raven is already a more advanced derivative of the vixen 1000e). If all they offer is the radar, the chinese system will be selected as the more i look at KLJ-7A the more im convinced it is the ELM-2052 which would be superior to the vixen in every way. Selex needs to offer a complete EW solution including integrated systems like the skyward irst. The need to need to offer up britecloud drfm and other ew equipment.

 

[Naif al Hilali]

To add to your post the ancillary services needed to setup a fighter are what kill the services. The more the types the higher the number of spares and the more the hassle involved. So the easiest way out was more 16s.
...

Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

Forgive my empty reply but your point cannot be repeated often enough.

Maybe I should copy it somewhere and keep pasting it all over the military forums.

Thank you for being a sane voice of reason.

Humbly yours,
Hifz u kum Allah

 

[The SC]

Hi,

J10 B - C were on offer last year february---18 of them for immediate delivery from existing stock.


.

I was referring to the 40 some that were offered a few years back (for free!)

Hi,

It has not been time / battle tested. The aircraft JF17 OTOH hand has gone thru its paces in the last 10 years.

But I don't think that the Paf would be in an experimental position with the chinese aesa---.

It has to come down to the total overall EW package

The article clearly states that the KLJ-7A was tailor made for the JF-17..meaning it will integrate well with the existing EW package and with any upgrades to it..

 

[MastanKhan]

Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

Forgive my empty reply but your point cannot be repeated often enough.

Maybe I should copy it somewhere and keep pasting it all over the military forums.

Thank you for being a sane voice of reason.

Humbly yours,
Hifz u kum Allah

Hi,

And with the click of a keyboard key---all the F16's could be electronically sabotaged---. We do it on our cars here in the U S---.

Naif---I was giving you more credit---.

 

[Bratva]

Hi,

And with the click of a keyboard key---all the F16's could be electronically sabotaged---. We do it on our cars here in the U S---.

Naif---I was giving you more credit---.

Neither with the click of keyboard nor they can be sabotaged. Only thing that could occur USA will stop providing encryption keys to activate IFF, Certain modes of Radar, Link-16 Hardware, Sniper/AIDEWS Pods . Thats it. So F-16 will still be able to fly fire all its armament but would be blind for most of the time.

 

[Naif al Hilali]

Hi,

And with the click of a keyboard key---all the F16's could be electronically sabotaged---. We do it on our cars here in the U S---.

Naif---I was giving you more credit---.

Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

Oh, I advocate only buying a few more F-16As and getting them MLU'd (upgraded) in Turkey plus sticking with JF-17 development and production (the EW suites, AESA, IRST, HMD, HOBS capabilities being discussed for the JF-17 added to the plane's maneuverability, range, and low RCS are encouraging).

The six extra two-seat F-16Ds would have been useful for ELINT (Electronic Intelligence) and SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses) - we only have six and with the S-400 missiles coming to India, lots of area to cover. But, PAF's desire to only have paid JF-17 prices for them means they possibly agree with you (Bratva's reply is likely closer to the truth).

I also understand the rationale for the Pakistan Navy's desire for the Su-35 - the ability to fly out 600 nautical miles with one or two heavy anti-ship missiles each, search out 200 nautical miles with powerful PESA radars, strike beyond the capabilities of Indian air defense, and self-escort themselves back to base is a mouth-watering proposition and would leave no place for the Indian Navy to hide.

However, the ground reality still remains that half your own infra-structure would possibly be destroyed in the first 72 hours (maybe even 24 hours) and you would be out of fuel and ammunition (and ways to produce more) before the week is up.

This is where the PAF needs to school the Navy on the need to maintain maximum parts commonality and a widely-distributable and manageable logistics train. The Su-35s could make do if they fly only from Masroor Air Base, but they are likely to be either out of the battle or down for repair by the end of the first day.

There is a reason the USAF wants to limit itself to two tactical types and the US Navy to just one (ideally). Logistics even for a superpower with untouchable manufacturing and strategic assets, seemingly limitless resources, tanker and carrier assets, is still a big hassle.

Anyway, I apologize, I did not intend to butt in on any conversations; araz's point on logistics, parts manufacture & supply, pilot training, tactics evolution, basing, and other considerations being a major undertaking is worthy enough to repeat and repeat often.

As always, thank you for your kind observations and support.

Hifz u kum Allah

 

[SQ8]

Neither with the click of keyboard nor they can be sabotaged. Only thing that could occur USA will stop providing encryption keys to activate IFF, Certain modes of Radar, Link-16 Hardware, Sniper/AIDEWS Pods . Thats it. So F-16 will still be able to fly fire all its armament but would be blind for most of the time.

That is just fiction. The only thing that is actually monitored are the EW systems and TGP which have a failsafe to not allow tampering from anyone other than authorised personell. The aircraft themselves cannot be done diddly squat to; sadly this is an uneducated myth propagated.