A NEW AIRCRAFT FOR PAF

[The SC]

Hi,

I don't think that the M2K can fit in today's scenario---. 12-14 years ago---it was a different story---that was the time to get the Rafale---.

I think that the paf---needs to step back---get non paf personal ( like me ) involved and have a brain storming session.

The base is the US air force---they are already telling the world the direction they are headed---the problem is the world does not understand what the usaf is saying---because they don't want to believe in it---and when you don't believe in something---you don't hear it---because as it does not register---it just counts as noise.

The americans are openly saying that their 5th gen aircraft are beyond good---but they are also saying under what conditions they are par excellence---but people are not listening to that part---and that part realistically is the 80% power projection of the american 5th gen aircraft---and this part is the conventional heavy strike aircraft---loaded to the hilt---flying at a distance---connected thru Data link and all its weapons at the disposal of the 5th gen operator.

As it enters deep into the enemy's air space---and observes what needed to be struck---it can simply launch the needed weapons from the heavy strike aircraft with the authorization or permission of that aircraft.

The enemy knows a strike has taken place---but it cannot see from where the strike came from.

People call it " Tag Team "---wrestling ala USAF style.

The Paf needs to go in a different direction to counter the enemy's heavy aircraft and strike power---it either needs to go for the J16 or the JH7B and the J31---it has to have a twin engine heavy. JF17 cannot cut it.

Hi,
I do understand the scenario, but it is not as easy as it might seem,; first stealth airplanes of very very low RCS can be detected 20 km from the country's borders, so deep penetration , I' ll leave that to the B2s and B1-Bs, secondly long range radars will detect the F-15s and F-18s -if it is that what you are talking about- from long distance.. so what a country needs is an integrated short, medium and long range, high and low altitude air defense systems to counter this scenario.. as one can see on these graphs:

I agree with you that the M2K is best left on the pasture. It would be a terrible stop gap measure. The quantities, and tech, are simply not there. The Rafale would have been a much better option, but PAF seems to have missed the boat on that as well.

Besides the Chinese Options, the Russian seems the most logical at this point in time, but the silence and the slow progress on the induction of a new platform is disturbing.

Not too far away in time a French pilot locked on an F-22 or F-35 in some exercises...with a French Mirage-2000, so I think the upgraded ones are still very potent..

 

[Indus Falcon]

Not too far away in time a French pilot locked on an F-22 or F-35 in some exercises...with a French Mirage-2000, so I think the upgraded ones are still very potent..

Rafale Vs F22 at Dhafra, is one that I know of. Details would be appreciated, to what you are referring to.

Secondly, everything that happens in an exercise is not always true. A lot of times the opponent is allowed to win, so that all his "cards" are on the table, whereas yours are not.

 

[Super Falcon]

Highly unlikely. Why would PAF go for any new platform until India actually procures Rafael.

RAFALE is processed with in 36 month india induct 36 rafale so ts time to go ahead

My guess is SU 35

 

[The SC]

Rafale Vs F22 at Dhafra, is one that I know of. Details would be appreciated, to what you are referring to.

Secondly, everything that happens in an exercise is not always true. A lot of times the opponent is allowed to win, so that all his "cards" are on the table, whereas yours are not.

" The U.S. pilots copped to just one loss in the war game — an F-22 defeated by a Mirage 2000 flown by an Emirati aviator."
https://warisboring.com/the-french-shot-down-u-s-stealth-fighter-f59db16282ca#.cj8l8gmy6

 

[Super Falcon]

we have these lollypops since last 15 years . i will never belive until i see them in pakistani colors

Seeing is believing

But there is something cooking

 

[Indus Falcon]

" The U.S. pilots copped to just one loss in the war game — an F-22 defeated by a Mirage 2000 flown by an Emirati aviator."
https://warisboring.com/the-french-shot-down-u-s-stealth-fighter-f59db16282ca#.cj8l8gmy6

@Khafee Is the right man. I'll find out what he can cough up.

@MastanKhan the same one, people call names on this forum said:

"The base is the US air force---they are already telling the world the direction they are headed---the problem is the world does not understand what the usaf is saying---because they don't want to believe in it---and when you don't believe in something---you don't hear it---because as it does not register---it just counts as noise."

https://defence.pk/threads/a-new-aircraft-for-paf.435458/page-56#post-8772405

The following article states:
"Even before the Emirati and French wins in 2009, the Americans knew the F-22 could be beaten, although they rarely mentioned this uncomfortable fact. During the Raptor’s first-ever major air exercise in 2006, an Air Force F-16 most likely dating from the 1980s managed to “kill” an F-22. A Navy Growler jet,designed to jam enemy radars, repeated the feat in 2008 or early 2009."

https://warisboring.com/the-french-shot-down-u-s-stealth-fighter-f59db16282ca#.5x8vj51zb

@MastanKhan If you don't believe in God, now would be a good time. Seems you could vindicated pretty fast

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Mirage-2000 production line has been shut for 10+ years
Rafale-N is not available since the IAF is purchasing it

Typhoon is a political hassle to deal with 4 countries

I do not think Pakistan will be impressed with Russian combat aircraft. If PAF purchases Russian aircraft it will be a sign of desperation

Where in my post did you read Pakistan is interested in getting NEW Mirage 2000's?

As far as desperation is concerned it would be when Pakistan buys some Iranian manufactured aircraft.

I will only comment on the above items in red:

Rafale N - was cancelled and replaced with the Rafale M, which is a customized version for carrier borne operations. PN is not planning to get any air craft carriers any time soon, so C & B combo should suit us just fine, provided the French sell to us.

Mirage 2000 -
a) Brazil retired 12 ex-ADA in Dec 2013.

b) Peru - 10 aircraft grounded due to lack of spares / financial issues

c) France - @Taygibay is the right person to comment on them. From what I have heard 55 ac's are being upgraded, more could follow soon.

d) UAE - Nothing available till 2022. They have been going through regular upgrades, so them being phased out before 2025 ~ 2030 seems highly unlikely.

e) Qatar - Once the Rafale's achieve FOC, this could become a possibility.

Practically speaking anything less than 25 ~ 30 aircraft is not feasible. It's a totally different platform, and has nothing in common to the mirages in PAF inventory.

Thanks!

Sir, Rafale N was quoted for the very reason you mentioned. Pakistan can not procure the Rafale C & B or M because India still is interested in those in large numbers.

Rafale N is not purchased because it has been canceled so India can not limit its sales if this is relaunched. France is known to supply weapons to both sides of the conflict if they are willing to pay the right price. Remember Libya under Qadafi was offered Rafales for a billion USD a pup.

Sir if PAF does go after the Mirage 2000's which include the South American and Qatari they would be approximately the same numbers as you have mentioned. Still they would require a new setup where as major maintenance can be done in UAE.

Thanks.

Not very interesting, my friend! Those of our Mirages that
will not be upgraded have worn out cells with no life poten-
tial left.
If anyone could do it, Pakistan could considering the awesome
job on the IIIs and 5s but they better come cheaper than cheap.
The Ds that are upgradable may all be retrofitted.

The 2000 D & -5 DA being out, maybe the Ns could be sold
once replaced but their service exit date of -by 2020 may be pushed
back by the interruption of Rafale deliveries following the LPM.

That program law ends in 2019 so we have to wait for then to know
for sure with some changes possible after next elections ( March 2017 ).

All the best to you and yours, Tay.

Sir,
Reading your post brings me to this conclusion that a complete rebuilt facility is required for Mirage 2000's. What is the status of this? What little is known to me is that the last assembly unit was sold as scrap because it could not support the production of Rafales.

Hi,

I don't think that the M2K can fit in today's scenario---. 12-14 years ago---it was a different story---that was the time to get the Rafale---.

I think that the paf---needs to step back---get non paf personal ( like me ) involved and have a brain storming session.

The base is the US air force---they are already telling the world the direction they are headed---the problem is the world does not understand what the usaf is saying---because they don't want to believe in it---and when you don't believe in something---you don't hear it---because as it does not register---it just counts as noise.

The americans are openly saying that their 5th gen aircraft are beyond good---but they are also saying under what conditions they are par excellence---but people are not listening to that part---and that part realistically is the 80% power projection of the american 5th gen aircraft---and this part is the conventional heavy strike aircraft---loaded to the hilt---flying at a distance---connected thru Data link and all its weapons at the disposal of the 5th gen operator.

As it enters deep into the enemy's air space---and observes what needed to be struck---it can simply launch the needed weapons from the heavy strike aircraft without the authorization or permission of that aircraft.

The enemy knows a strike has taken place---but it cannot see from where the strike came from.

People call it " Tag Team "---wrestling ala USAF style.

The Paf needs to go in a different direction to counter the enemy's heavy aircraft and strike power---it either needs to go for the J16 or the JH7B and the J31---it has to have a twin engine heavy. JF17 cannot cut it.

Hi,

I don't think that the M2K can fit in today's scenario---. 12-14 years ago---it was a different story---that was the time to get the Rafale---.

I think that the paf---needs to step back---get non paf personal ( like me ) involved and have a brain storming session.

The base is the US air force---they are already telling the world the direction they are headed---the problem is the world does not understand what the usaf is saying---because they don't want to believe in it---and when you don't believe in something---you don't hear it---because as it does not register---it just counts as noise.

The americans are openly saying that their 5th gen aircraft are beyond good---but they are also saying under what conditions they are par excellence---but people are not listening to that part---and that part realistically is the 80% power projection of the american 5th gen aircraft---and this part is the conventional heavy strike aircraft---loaded to the hilt---flying at a distance---connected thru Data link and all its weapons at the disposal of the 5th gen operator.

As it enters deep into the enemy's air space---and observes what needed to be struck---it can simply launch the needed weapons from the heavy strike aircraft without the authorization or permission of that aircraft.

The enemy knows a strike has taken place---but it cannot see from where the strike came from.

People call it " Tag Team "---wrestling ala USAF style.

The Paf needs to go in a different direction to counter the enemy's heavy aircraft and strike power---it either needs to go for the J16 or the JH7B and the J31---it has to have a twin engine heavy. JF17 cannot cut it.

Sir,
Do you think PAF made a mistake in not purchasing a replacement for the bombers it used to have? When PAF was offered the F-16's PAF could also have asked for F-14 or F-15's or later F-18's.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

What is Swedish law, with regards to selling stuff during a conflict?

A country should not be qualified if

• it is at war with another country
• It is involved in an international conflict which may result in war
• there is an active insurgency
• it commits severe violations against human rights.

Once qualified, I think that is governed by contracts with the buyer.
Haubits 77 (FH-77) got all the support India wanted. (Did not want it during a period for well known reasons)
A decision in the UNSC to block exports would be honoured of course.

 

[Indus Falcon]

Hi,
I do understand the scenario, but it is not as easy as it might seem,; first stealth airplanes of very very low RCS can be detected 20 km from the country's borders, so deep penetration , I' ll leave that to the B2s and B1-Bs, secondly long range radars will detect the F-15s and F-18s -if it is that what you are talking about- from long distance.. so what a country needs is an integrated short, medium and long range, high and low altitude air defense systems to counter this scenario.. as one can see on these graphs:

IRST tech has been progressing in leaps and bounds. Current gen IRST systems range exceeds that of AESA radars. Now this throws a spanner in the works for stealth tech.

Please see following links for details:

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...lex-radar-eurofighter-infrared-irst/26508459/

http://www.leonardocompany.com/en/-/skyward-g-irst

http://aviationweek.com/technology/new-radars-irst-strengthen-stealth-detection-claims

https://defenseissues.wordpress.com/2015/06/16/airborne-irst-properties-and-performance/

 

[The SC]

IRST tech has been progressing in leaps and bounds. Current gen IRST systems range exceeds that of AESA radars. Now this throws a spanner in the works for stealth tech.

Please see following links for details:

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...lex-radar-eurofighter-infrared-irst/26508459/

http://www.leonardocompany.com/en/-/skyward-g-irst

http://aviationweek.com/technology/new-radars-irst-strengthen-stealth-detection-claims

https://defenseissues.wordpress.com/2015/06/16/airborne-irst-properties-and-performance/

I've seen that many times, thanks!
I didn't want to go into details, radars were enough for that scenario, but for air to air detection , the main tool that proved to be efficient against stealth is IRST, since it could detect the F-22 at around 50 km while being both radar silent..

 

[Indus Falcon]

Sir, Rafale N was quoted for the very reason you mentioned. Pakistan can not procure the Rafale C & B or M because India still is interested in those in large numbers.

Rafale N is not purchased because it has been canceled so India can not limit its sales if this is relaunched. France is known to supply weapons to both sides of the conflict if they are willing to pay the right price. Remember Libya under Qadafi was offered Rafales for a billion USD a pup.

Sir if PAF does go after the Mirage 2000's which include the South American and Qatari they would be approximately the same numbers as you have mentioned. Still they would require a new setup where as major maintenance can be done in UAE.

Thanks.

The Brazilian Mirages were bought second hand from the Armée de l'air / French Air Force. They have more than 10,000 hours on them.

The Qataris will not be deposing of theirs for then next two to three years.

In light of all of these issues, this option doesn't look very viable.

Best Regards

I've seen that many times, thanks!
I didn't want to go into details, radars were enough for that scenario, but for air to air detection , the main tool that proved to be efficient against stealth is IRST, since it could detect the F-22 at around 50 km while being both radar silent..

Latest gen IRST has ranges exceeding 100km+ is all that I can say on a public forum.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir,
Do you think PAF made a mistake in not purchasing a replacement for the bombers it used to have? When PAF was offered the F-16's PAF could also have asked for F-14 or F-15's or later F-18's.

Hi,

The Paf was told at that time to diversify---go for the M2K's.

 

[wiseone2]

A country should not be qualified if

• it is at war with another country
• It is involved in an international conflict which may result in war
• there is an active insurgency
• it commits severe violations against human rights.

Once qualified, I think that is governed by contracts with the buyer.
Haubits 77 (FH-77) got all the support India wanted. (Did not want it during a period for well known reasons)
A decision in the UNSC to block exports would be honoured of course.

Just curious
is Pakistan a qualified country for arm exports ??

 

[The SC]

The Brazilian Mirages were bought second hand from the Armée de l'air / French Air Force. They have more than 10,000 hours on them.

The Qataris will not be deposing of theirs for then next two to three years.

In light of all of these issues, this option doesn't look very viable.

Best Regards



Latest gen IRST has ranges exceeding 100km+ is all that I can say on a public forum.

I've heard the SU-35 discussions with Russia were fruitful, So SU-35 might be coming but I hope the delivery date won't be a problem..
Mirage-2000 will be a good addition when it will be available, The Qatari ones with some UAE ones, 2 squadrons will be ideal if no F-16 block 52 or MLU ones are available..
IRST became so important that the US is incorporating it on its F-15s!

 

[royalharris]

Forget Gripen, as Sweden does not sell such weapons to Pakistan.
Swedish laws categorizes countries, and Pakistan is only allowed to buy defensive material like EriEye.

And we won't sell to countries which cannot spell Gripen correctly, LOL.

Gripen?