Extreme Flood in Indus tributaries - 100s Die

[Viper0011.]

Not only have I traveled widely in USA, I also know Pakistan, specially Punjab, intimately. There is no way your suggestions can be implemented there.

Science and Engineering don't care or change because "someone" has travelled and seen the world and has an opinion about it. If you don't understand Hydraulics Engineering, then may be you shouldn't get into a debate with me that counters my scientific / fact base discussion with "I traveled a lot and its not going to happen" type counter arguments? The engineering can solve this problem or 90% of it in like 20 different ways. The need is for the government to focus and money to be spent.

The Amsterdam floats on top of the Ocean.....and look, the science has managed to keep that population safe from these floods while are they are on top of the ocean.... and its pretty densely populated too. Japan's in the middle of an earthquake zone with higher magnitude earth quakes common there. Their buildings can withstand tremendous amount of earthquakes.
The Tokyo airport is entirely floating on top of the Water.....La-Guardia airport (and San Francisco airport) both have runways half of which are sitting on top of deep ocean. All due to science and engineering.

 

[VCheng]

The engineering can solve this problem or 90% of it in like 20 different ways. The need is for the government to focus and money to be spent.

There is no focus. There is no money. And I know of what I speak.

The proper engineering solution for the Chenab is extensive flood control levees.

 

[zip]

Thanks for letting me know something I knew already.

A flood of 900,000 cusec means 67000 Acre feet of storage per hour. If such a flood persists for 24 hours, which is expected in this case. We would need a storage capacity of 1.6 million acre feet, provided such a lake is not already filled by rains and overflow. I hope you can find a suitable site to make a lake, and a suitable site to dump the soil / dirt that would need to be removed.

If lakes and resorvoirs of major cities like lahore ,karachi wont fill in rainy season hence water scarcity in summet you can pump these waters in rainy season ..it will be not only helpful in flood situations it can also fulfil water scarcity in town areas ..

 

[Viper0011.]

There is no focus. There is no money. And I know of what I speak.

The proper engineering solution for the Chenab is extensive flood control levees.

what do you think I've been recommending this entire time we've been going back and forth? Levees are A part of a "flood control system" which general comprises of many parts including Canals, Water Store, Water Dispensing and Re-Routing, etc. Like I said, there are 25 ways to skin the cat. Its up to the engineering team working on site to determine what system or part of a system is more applicable. BUT, your counter argument about "its not going to happen because there is dense population" and " the flat surface", etc has no relevance to the issue in hand. But thank you for debating.

 

[VCheng]

what do you think I've been recommending this entire time we've been going back and forth? Levees are A part of a "flood control system" which general comprises of many parts including Canals, Water Store, Water Dispensing and Re-Routing, etc. Like I said, there are 25 ways to skin the cat. Its up to the engineering team working on site to determine what system or part of a system is more applicable. BUT, your counter argument about "its not going to happen because there is dense population" and " the flat surface", etc has no relevance to the issue in hand. But thank you for debating.

Levees do not need extensive storage lakes. Certain areas inside the levees need to be flooded and the people evacuated, depending on the size of the flood. Anything more elaborate will not work there.

 

[Viper0011.]

Levees do not need extensive storage lakes. Certain areas inside the levees need to be flooded and the people evacuated, depending on the size of the flood. Anything more elaborate will not work there.

I mentioned this three posts ago . You've been clearly not paying attention to my posts. But yet you counter them with some interesting logic.

 

[VCheng]

I mentioned this three posts ago . You've been clearly not paying attention to my posts. But yet you counter them with some interesting logic.

And you clearly do not understand the challenges on the ground there. Even simple levees would be a miracle if built and maintained effectively.

 

[Viper0011.]

And you clearly do not understand the challenges on the ground there. Even simple levees would be a miracle if built and maintained effectively.

There is no "challenge" there. When you put in an engineering team like the one that runs Mangla or Tarbeela Hydro power and dams, they'll come up with the design, maintenance and control processes effectively. That's their job and by looking at Mangla and Tarbeela projects, it appears that the engineering teams in Pakistan are more than qualified to manage such projects. This project that I am referring to, is probably 50 times less complex than the Mangla project as its not on the height the flat surface makes it much easier.

 

[VCheng]

There is no "challenge" there. When you put in an engineering team like the one that runs Mangla or Tarbeela Hydro power and dams, they'll come up with the design, maintenance and control processes effectively. That's their job and by looking at Mangla and Tarbeela projects, it appears that the engineering teams in Pakistan are more than qualified to manage such projects. This project that I am referring to, is probably 50 times less complex than the Mangla project as its not on the height the flat surface makes it much easier.

Sir, you clearly have no idea about the reality in Pakistan these days. The challenges to even simple projects like these are multiple, complex and quite often insurmountable. Trust me, I know.

 

[Viper0011.]

And you clearly do not understand the challenges on the ground there. Even simple levees would be a miracle if built and maintained effectively.

Here you go man. Your government is saying the SAME thing I am (which is about time). I hope this puts the argument to rest. This is pure science and engineering, nothing more. Doesn't matter how dense population or flat the surface is. Read up:

ISLAMABAD - Finance Minister Senator Ishaq Dar has said that the government would go ahead with both Dasu and Diamer Projects at the same time and eventually phase out costly thermal power generation which had resulted in large import bill.

The finance minister said this while chairing a meeting to discuss issues related to financing of Diamer Bhasha Dam at the Finance Ministry on Saturday. He observed that Indus River Cascade had an over ninety thousands mega watts power generation capacity and had there been focus on hydel power generation.

He said that Pakistan would not have shortage of energy or water.

He mentioned that with the construction of three gorges dam, China has placed a check on floods and built a reservoir on which the whole China was benefiting.

The finance minister was informed that during the last twenty four hours, Mangla Dam had absorbed two million acre feet of water from its catchment areas. He said that the Mangla Dam Raising Project had brought immense benefits not only for conservation of water but also to control flooding.

 

[VCheng]

Here you go man. Your government is saying the SAME thing I am (which is about time). I hope this puts the argument to rest. This is pure science and engineering, nothing more. Doesn't matter how dense population or flat the surface is. Read up:

Sir, these projects are two rivers over to the West. Chenab is a very different issue given the topography. There is no such thing as a "pure" science and engineering project in real life. Please read up on how an eminently sensible project like Kalabagh Dam has no seen any progress for decades to get some idea of just how the circus works in Pakistan, or, rather, does not work.

 

[Viper0011.]

Sir, these projects are two rivers over to the West. Chenab is a very different issue given the topography. There is no such thing as a "pure" science and engineering project in real life. Please read up on how an eminently sensible project like Kalabagh Dam has no seen any progress for decades to get some idea of just how the circus works in Pakistan, or, rather, does not work.

Ok, I think this would be my last post on the topic. I am talking about a solution based on Hydraulics Engineering to control the flooding in a densely populated are or a flat surface and that's possible in two dozen ways.

But if there is red tape and politics involved, doesn't mean that Science and Engineering can't provide the solution. It simply means you have politics involved which are way different and separate than the Engineering solution. This is an entirely Engineering based solution but if someone doesn't want to pay for it or use politics about this issue, then its not the Engineering that couldn't provide a solution, its nasty politics involved.

 

[Jf Thunder]

Chenab needs to have a proper system of flood control levees all along its course in Punjab. That is the solution.

seems difficult

 

[Chak Bamu]

@orangzaib great idea sir. But the size of the lake will be enormous. I will need to accommodate at least about 1 million acre feet of water. I do believe that right close to the border there must be land available. However there is no fixed flood pattern to work with. Its pretty random.

Levees are generally a bad idea, because there would be no way to take care of sedimentation that would inevitably happen.

I do think that there are plenty of good hydrologists in Pakistan who can handle any project. If the government can get to it, something can be worked out that can take the edge off the worst floods.

 

[VCheng]

Ok, I think this would be my last post on the topic. I am talking about a solution based on Hydraulics Engineering to control the flooding in a densely populated are or a flat surface and that's possible in two dozen ways.

But if there is red tape and politics involved, doesn't meant that Science and Engineering can't provide the solution. It simply means you have politics involved which are way different and separate than the Engineering solution. This is an entirely Engineering based solution but if someone doesn't want to pay for it or use politics about this issue, then its not the Engineering that couldn't provide a solution, its nasty politics involved.

Welcome to Pakistan!