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Extreme Flood in Indus tributaries - 100s Die

Is it technically impossible to build dams on these rivers through Punjab to control the yearly floods? China and Egypt had similar problems with Yangtze- and Nile River until they build dams to control this overflow and loss of fresh water.

There is no possibility of building a dam on Chenab in Pakistan. Ever since Mangla was built Jehlum is quite controlled. On many occasions it absorbed floods that would have caused a lot of devastation. Chenab is particularly blood thirsty because unlike Jehlum which flows a long way and collects tributary streams in intervals, Chenab's major tributaries combine a few dozen miles from Pakistan. It is difficult to predict accurately when it might have a flood.
 
No Politics in this thread, please.
SIGNIFICANT FLOOD FORECAST FOR RIVER CHENAB AT MARALA, KHANKI & QADIRABAD

River Chenab at Marala is likely to cross 9,00,000 Cusecs Exceptionally High Flood Level during 1800 PST of 06-09-2014 to 0600 PST of 07-09-2014. .

I am very surprised to see so much devastation on a couple of tv channels. How come Pakistan doesn't build a Lake / Reservoir system where you re-route the water around so its not over flowing? That way, you will have many large lakes / dams that can initially be built out only for water storage and later, add hydro-electric production to these.

When there is a threat of flood, you empty out these reservoirs and release water downstream towards the Indus / the Ocean a few days in advance. When the flood water comes in, you then fill up these reservoirs and re-route the water through canals to other reservoirs and lakes and leave room for the incoming flood water in all main rivers. When the flood water comes in, it'll find almost near-empty rivers with plenty of near-empty reservoirs and a canal system that can route over-flooding water out of the river and on a journey to the storage reservoirs. That way, there is not much left to overflow and flood villages and cities.

Flood cycle usually lasts for a few days when massive water levels accumulate, if there is a support system to absorb additional water mass, the water won't go outside of the river banks and less or little flooding if any. Of course, you can't fight the mother nature and there will always be some instances where these floods will occur. But you can at least control 90% of it saving time, money and lives, not to mention having so much more water for irrigation, agriculture and hydro-electric purposes.
 
I am very surprised to see so much devastation on a couple of tv channels. How come Pakistan doesn't build a Lake / Reservoir system where you re-route the water around so its not over flowing? That way, you will have many large lakes / dams that can initially be built out only for water storage and later, add hydro-electric production to these.

When there is a threat of flood, you empty out these reservoirs and release water downstream towards the Indus / the Ocean a few days in advance. When the flood water comes in, you then fill up these reservoirs and re-route the water through canals to other reservoirs and lakes and leave room for the incoming flood water in all main rivers. When the flood water comes in, it'll find almost near-empty rivers with plenty of near-empty reservoirs and a canal system that can route over-flooding water out of the river and on a journey to the storage reservoirs. That way, there is not much left to overflow and flood villages and cities.

Flood cycle usually lasts for a few days when massive water levels accumulate, if there is a support system to absorb additional water mass, the water won't go outside of the river banks and less or little flooding if any. Of course, you can't fight the mother nature and there will always be some instances where these floods will occur. But you can at least control 90% of it saving time, money and lives, not to mention having so much more water for irrigation, agriculture and hydro-electric purposes.

Sir we can not build big dams on Chenab. We may be able to create lakes but that would require massive funds and I doubt any neutral level lake can absorb such big floods. We may not have the area required either for such lakes. I am not an expert of hydrology, and I would welcome expert opinion on this matter.
 
I have been hearing from my elders in past couple of days that they have never seen such a high water level in rivers in kashmir.Jehlum has breached the bund at many places also in srinagar.And it is worst in Jammu province(chenab).So i think Pakistan should prepare for the floods.
 
Sir we can not build big dams on Chenab. We may be able to create lakes but that would require massive funds and I doubt any neutral level lake can absorb such big floods. We may not have the area required either for such lakes. I am not an expert of hydrology, and I would welcome expert opinion on this matter.

Lakes do not require massive funds nor do reservoirs at least its less than big dams. Also if proper research is done on the soil type etc then these can be build quickly and large amounts of water can be stored as you dig up the land.
 
Lakes do not require massive funds nor do reservoirs at least its less than big dams. Also if proper research is done on the soil type etc then these can be build quickly and large amounts of water can be stored as you dig up the land.

Thanks for letting me know something I knew already.

A flood of 900,000 cusec means 67000 Acre feet of storage per hour. If such a flood persists for 24 hours, which is expected in this case. We would need a storage capacity of 1.6 million acre feet, provided such a lake is not already filled by rains and overflow. I hope you can find a suitable site to make a lake, and a suitable site to dump the soil / dirt that would need to be removed.
 
Sir we can not build big dams on Chenab. We may be able to create lakes but that would require massive funds and I doubt any neutral level lake can absorb such big floods. We may not have the area required either for such lakes. I am not an expert of hydrology, and I would welcome expert opinion on this matter.

If you can't build dams, the Lakes are never prohibited, supported by a canal dispensing system. For example, say your river's capacity is 500,000 Cusec, and you have 400,000 Cusecs coming in, you'll have a total of 900,000 Cusecs say between Day 5th and 7th of a month.

Now even if the river comes in from India, the Weather Doppler radars (each TV station in the US has one), can be placed around the border. Kashmir is a mountainous region so putting such a small system on top of a hill or a mountain can accurately tell you the Rain patterns, precipitation, humidity, cloud density and expected water density around 75 to 100 miles (about 115 - 145 KM?) out, so that's a LOT of area.

Now on Day 3, you know there are significant clouds that can bring down rain from 2-8 inches (Estimated). You take the median in this case (as supported by the history in a geographical area) and let go of the water 200 KM's away from 4 large reservoirs. Here is how it works:

1) Empty out about 200,000 Cusecs waters from the lakes down stream towards Indus or the Ocean, leaving the lakes almost 75% empty. After this water is slowly pushed out with increments (to avoid flooding in Indus on its way towards the ocean), you take the next steps.

2) Start to empty out the two - three main rivers that come straight from the Kashmiri mountains. The water coming down from the mountains will have tremendous force which will double the impact due to downward slope movement. You start to empty out these rivers through long or circular canals (so water remains in transit for a while before getting inside the reservoirs), then these Reservoirs get filled up again and you empty them out. Leaving 100,000 Cusecs (or less if the magnitude of rainfalls inside India and Pakistan has been determined and increased).

3) Now the rainfall water won't have its own impact to the river as the Rainfall water continues to drain away through this canal system to the reservoir then to the Indus or the Ocean so its "forward moving" water, which is good, compared to the accumulated water in one place which results in an immediate overflow when a surge happens.

4) Now your river bed is empty almost by day 5 and its started to receive flood water coming from up-stream. As you see the trend and force of this water, you keep using the canal system to push the water out to the reservoirs and then out through Indus and to the ocean.

5) Now 500,000 thousand Cusecs can easily be accommodated as there are two constant exist channels out for flood water, (1) is the natural river trajectory that eventually takes it to the Indus / the Ocean and (2) the canal based system and associated water reservoirs that are not letting the water accumulate in one place

6) On day 8th, the major water surge would have passed through the normal river flow and through the canal and the reservoir system. You may have (5-10%), 50,000 or 100,000 Cusec water that may still flood due to rare extreme situations but the there won't be insane devastation anywhere. 50 to 100K cusecs means half a mile worth of water pools / swaths spread across certain areas designed to release the flood water to protect the population.

7) On day 10 or 11: You'll have FRESH water (Spring Fed) reservoirs up to date with Fresh water that you can use all year round for providing clean water after purification (as its all rain water, which is pure with river mud that can be cleaned and water can be Chlorinated to kill germs and all).

The reservoir system provides an excellent opportunity to save water for Drinking, Irrigation, build Agriculture, Seafood, Poultry, Beef and Fish farms around these reservoirs, parks and recreational activities with wild life (Where people come and enjoy their day and pay for entering so more revenue is generated).

This all sounds complicated but its really one canal system with branches and a few large lakes without the expensive "DAM" type infrastructure. The benefits are A LOT more than the investment.
 
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These are not easy projects either, given the flat topography over rich agricultural lands. The NIMBY problem will be hugely difficult to resolve too.

Actually, Punjab is JUST as flat as Kansas, Missouri and Texas. Trust me on it. And these states have similar systems in place. These water reservoirs or lakes produce many business opportunities, revenue through providing parks and all, boating, fishing and other activities while saving water and avoiding flood damages. The system is proven, there is no doubt about it. A couple of organizations in Pakistan that I know of, who are working in the infrastructure building, can build these without issues.

Similar stuff (Dams, Canals, Nodes, Levees, Reservoirs) have been built like 3000 BC. The government in Pakistan needs to put the same effort into fixing this issue that they are putting into eliminating electricity. Read below data:

Dam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Environmental impact of reservoirs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Actually, Punjab is JUST as flat as Kansas, Missouri and Texas. Trust me on it. And these states have similar systems in place. These water reservoirs or lakes produce many business opportunities, revenue through providing parks and all, boating, fishing and other activities while saving water and avoiding flood damages. The system is proven, there is no doubt about it. A couple of organizations in Pakistan that I know of, who are working in the infrastructure building, can build these without issues.

Similar stuff (Dams, Canals, Nodes, Levees, Reservoirs) have been built like 3000 BC. The government in Pakistan needs to put the same effort into fixing this issue that they are putting into eliminating electricity. Read below data:

Dam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Environmental impact of reservoirs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Those states have plenty of fallow land that can be used. All of northern Punjab is densely populated.
 
Those states have plenty of fallow land that can be used. All of northern Punjab is densely populated.

If your answer to everything is "can't happen", "its densely populated" and all.....I guess that ends the argument. I don't know where you live in the US, but in the most densely populated areas, we still bring out more highways, buildings, parks, lakes and all.

A canal system doesn't require miles of width. In fact its a few hundred meters in length. I know it can be done anywhere. And there are areas that are not densely populated. The beauty of this canal system is that it takes the extra water on a journey to an area where such arrangements are made. That way, the water cut off of the river and sent to a long journey, immediately gives more time for the flood water to push through while a lot of the water is traveling the canal system. Flood Management is all about timing, if you can manage to create temporary room during the hours a water surge is expected, you got it under control.

In some countries, there are canal based systems that make a big circle and come back to the SAME river at some point. That way, you took water out and sent it round and round, created room for a certain amount of time, accommodated the surge, let it pass through the normal river trajectory and then the canal brings back the water you originally sent on a journey to allow passing of the surge.

I don't think your background is in Hydraulic engineering so its no use in discussing this when you don't have the specialty needed. There are over 25 ways to solve it, whether in densely populated areas or not.
 
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If your answer to everything is "can't happen", "its densely populated" and all.....I guess that ends the argument. I don't know where you live in the US, but in the most densely populated areas, we still bring out more highways, buildings, parks, lakes and all.

Not only have I traveled widely in USA, I also know Pakistan, specially Punjab, intimately. There is no way your suggestions can be implemented there.
 
Thousands displaced as floods submerge 400 villages in Kashmir Valley
PTI

  • INDIA_KASHMIR_FLOO_2095650g.jpg

    APA jawan carries a child after evacuating a family from a flooded area in Srinagar on Saturday.
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    APMigrant workers cover themselves with plastic sheets to shield from the rain, as they camp on a highway after the area they were living in was inundated by floodwaters in Srinagar on Saturday.
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    Jawans evacuate flood-hit people in Jammu on Saturday. Photo: Nissar Ahmad
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    ReutersChildren with their belongings sit under an umbrella during rain in Srinagar.
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    ReutersFlood-hit residents are evacuated to higher ground by jawans in Srinagar on Saturday.
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    ReutersPeople use a truck to move to safer places through a flooded street after heavy rain in Srinagar on Saturday.
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    ReutersMen pull a woman from the side embankment of a bridge during rain in Srinagar on Saturday.

Thousands of people have been forced to leave their houses and take shelter at safer places as the flood fury continues across Kashmir Valley with no let up in the rains for the fifth day on Saturday, officials said.

With nearly 400 villages of the Valley inundated by unprecedented floods, the residents from many of these villages have moved to safer places, leaving behind their homes and belongings as water level continues to rise due to incessant rains, the officials said.

Army, police and National Disaster Response Force (NDRF) teams have been assisting and helping affected people to move to safer places, they said.

The people have been lodged in school buildings, mosques and even at several railway stations in Srinagar and south Kashmir districts of Pulwama and Anantnag, they said.

Residents in many areas are reluctant to leave their houses due to apprehensions about security of their property, making the task of the rescue teams difficult, the officials said.

The State government has established community kitchens at several places for the displaced people while some NGOs have also started providing relief materials like blankets and clothes to those affected.

The civil administration has appealed to the people living near the rivers and rivulets in the Valley to move to safer places as embankments have been breached at many places in Pulwama district.

More areas are likely to be affected by the floods in the Valley as the Met department has forecast more rains over the next 24 hours across the State.

The death toll in the worst floods in the State in nearly six decades has claimed 100 lives so far.


Too much death and destruction on the Indian side too:undecided:
 
well i see how sad we all are, id Chenab cant be dammed, cant be laked, cant be cannaled, then wth should we do with Chenab?
 
well i see how sad we all are, id Chenab cant be dammed, cant be laked, cant be cannaled, then wth should we do with Chenab?

Chenab needs to have a proper system of flood control levees all along its course in Punjab. That is the solution.
 

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