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The Un-Intended Eye Opener Of 27th Feb:---

:no:...you are under estimating India in the same way how India under estimated Pakistan and got a slap on its face.
One or two aircraft kills in a skirmish is not a pretext to get confident to start a war or invade Kashmir. 1965 was the same....please learn from history
you missed my point bro...in 65, we did NOT have that psychological dominance established over them...the kind where the enemy feels naturally inferior to you. THAT is the psychological dominance we have to establish over them and that can easily be achieved by multiple small sized victories over them that was established on the 27th. The more these gather up, the more indians will feel scared and intimidated by us. After that, its just a matter of going in for the kill!
 
you missed my point bro...in 65, we did NOT have that psychological dominance established over them...the kind where the enemy feels naturally inferior to you. THAT is the psychological dominance we have to establish over them and that can easily be achieved by multiple small sized victories over them that was established on the 27th. The more these gather up, the more indians will feel scared and intimidated by us. After that, its just a matter of going in for the kill!
In Feb/march 1965, at Runn Of Kutch, Pakistan Army and Rangers ousted India which had captured posts in Pakistan. To create Psychological dominance, Pakistan Army brought M-48 Tanks into action from Lahore and moved infantry reinforcements from Quetta. India was not expecting all this

Getting confident, PA prepared and launched Operation Gibraltar (august 1965), which failed. Then PA launched Operation Grand Slam (1st sept 1965) and in response an all out war broke out within 6 days. Nobody Won. India saved Kashmir, Pakistan saved its own territory.
Please learn from history.
 
Hi,
Pakistani kids shock me---. India declared war on pakistan---and these pakistani boys are crying----no it is LOC infraction---.
That is why I have stated so many time---an LOC infraction by a sortie of fighter aircraft---after declaring hostile action at will and at a time of their chosing is a declaration of war---.
This " infraction " in kashmir was a part of the thrid strike force that tried to ingress---.
A total number of 40 plus aircraft were used by the enemy in the 3 locations---.
That was an all out war---. That is what pak military should have proclaimed after downing half of them---" we thought it was the starting of a war "---.

Spot on. You are right, it was reported that there were two more intrusions further south and the Indians found a window in Muzzafarabad sector and used it to attack Pakistan. I agree, Pakistan should have strike them hard on the day, not only in Muzzafarabad where they intruded, but on the other two spots further south, where they were engaged by PAF.
Opportunities missed, because the PAF was not sure about their instructions/commands.
The commands after PM's speech in the NA should have been very clear, strike at the enemy if you are attacked.
Imran Khan clearly said that we have no other option but to respond to the Indian aggression.
Why they didn't!!!
 
Actually what I understand with my very humble and very poor knowledge compared of most of honorable members here is that we were face at a dilemma :

1) reply to the Indian agression with full force as @MastanKhan @crankthatskunk ans others certainly by shooting more than few of IAF jets in order to create not only a shock but also a real fear and big doubts/cracks in their confidence or overconfidence. And the calculus is that now we wouldn’t have been in a position in which we are now. I mean : will they attack again ? Yes probably, but from where and which tactics ?

2) or reply in a well measured force, I mean with limited damages on their forces, in order to present India as the aggressor.

But if as some very reputed members are saying that India sent more than 25/30 jets in 3 groups after telling to everyone in the world that they will hit Pakistan, weren’t they already aggressor ?

But as we didn’t opted for the option number 1, but instead we opted for the second one, now they will attack us for sure with more forces and maybe on several fronts.
Isn’t the result of the response we gave them leading to the same which was expected with the first option ?

I mean a war ?


Both options have their advantages and inconvénients sure.
I could be wrong. And I hope I’m wrong.



Ps: @MastanKhan please refrain to use illpaced words against the people who have the duty, the responsibility of defending us. I know when we are angry it happened that we use words that we regret after.
 
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Has India invaded Pakistan after being bombed on 27th feb ?

No it wouldn't have invaded us after its attack on Pakistani territory was repelled with devastating results. The shock and awe would be greater rather than a revenge strike that too not availing presented opportunities.
Not to smoke Bipin was kind of chickening out. You attack, push your opponent down and said to him, don't do it again.
You think India will not attack in near future with massive fire power!!
I am worried about you man, you are peddling a very weird logic, which is beyond my comprehension.
At no point I have said that War is good, or Pakistan should impose war. I am only talking about self defense.
First night was the time of self defense. You shown your strengths at a "Time and Place of your choosing" but still didn't get the job done!! That is foolish strategy which is going to haunt Pakistan in coming days.
My slogan "Pakistan men have no balls" is after watching these shenanigans for two decades.
Take the example of yesterday decision regarding "Samjotha Express". What did Pakistan do against such decision!!
In comparison India make such hue and cry on a very small matter. Pakistan men should grow some balls, urgently.
 
In Feb/march 1965, at Runn Of Kutch, Pakistan Army and Rangers ousted India which had captured posts in Pakistan. To create Psychological dominance, Pakistan Army brought M-48 Tanks into action from Lahore and moved infantry reinforcements from Quetta. India was not expecting all this

Getting confident, PA prepared and launched Operation Gibraltar (august 1965), which failed. Then PA launched Operation Grand Slam (1st sept 1965) and in response an all out war broke out within 6 days. Nobody Won. India saved Kashmir, Pakistan saved its own territory.
Please learn from history.
yar dominance aysay nahi banti. It needs to continue over YEARS for that sort of dominance to be established. Slow and steady...I'm talkin' about the very long run, establish that psychological superiority over them over the years that they just instinctively assume that they'll never be able to fight us.
 
It was USS Abraham Lincoln I dont exactly remember the time frame.
they claimed no one could penetrate their defenses...surprise surprise
Two Mirages were used in the exercise.
58_Gallery_1.jpg

I recall @Muradk told a story about this a while back. I have not seen any posts from Muradk for a while. Hope all is well on his end.
 
From the start until now I had been worried about this part. If you see my comments history, I was fearful our Army is going to show restrain in hitting the enemy. Big mistake. We should have caused maximum damage when we had a chance. If 5/10 fighters of India were downed , the story would have been completely different.
I have commented multiple times that India's losses are far more. I know they should have been, when you get air superiority and control of the theater you do maximum damage to the enemy, both in the air and on the ground.
Pakistanis have made a huge blunder, which they are going to pay in very near future, mark my words. I will reproduce this and my earlier posts as evidence.
Look what the Americans did in Iraq when they had air superiority, the lay the whole Iraq force to waste. We had the opportunity on 27th to kill thousands of Indians, we should have done it.
Now India is going to retaliate with full force, we may not be lucky this time. Don't get me wrong I hope we are, but still a grave error on PA.
This sounds most likely.

Especially after elections.

India holds the initiative here as well. You on the other hand are doing nothing.

Other than gloating over a downed mig and arguing about the nationality of another alleged aircraft.
 
In Feb/march 1965, at Runn Of Kutch, Pakistan Army and Rangers ousted India which had captured posts in Pakistan. To create Psychological dominance, Pakistan Army brought M-48 Tanks into action from Lahore and moved infantry reinforcements from Quetta. India was not expecting all this

Getting confident, PA prepared and launched Operation Gibraltar (august 1965), which failed. Then PA launched Operation Grand Slam (1st sept 1965) and in response an all out war broke out within 6 days. Nobody Won. India saved Kashmir, Pakistan saved its own territory.
Please learn from history.

Hi,''What you missed was what Pakistan did to " their Col Sharon " in 1965---. Pak military had a general of that capability---before his final onslaughtto cut of the indian army---he was transfered---and this cowardly officer---competent though he was---said " yessir " and left his post to be replaced---the replacement did not show up for two days---.

If he had stood his ground accepted a court martial threat but cut off the indian army and taken over the kashmir region just Col Sharon decimated the egytpian army and would not accept the orders of his superiors for cease fire for days---.

Pakistani generals may be tactically competent---but inherently they are cowards in mind---.

Look at the great Gen Raheel Sharif---Allah gave him the opportunity to build a massive pakistani military force in the gulf and at the expense of gulf states---and his answer a year later was---" bas ghalti ho gayee---uss waqt samajh nahin aayee---".

There was a reason that Indira Gandhi said what she said---" pakistani generals have no ---you go ahead and attack---".
 
No it wouldn't have invaded us after its attack on Pakistani territory was repelled with devastating results. The shock and awe would be greater rather than a revenge strike that too not availing presented opportunities.
Not to smoke Bipin was kind of chickening out. You attack, push your opponent down and said to him, don't do it again.
You think India will not attack in near future with massive fire power!!
I am worried about you man, you are peddling a very weird logic, which is beyond my comprehension.
At no point I have said that War is good, or Pakistan should impose war. I am only talking about self defense.
First night was the time of self defense. You shown your strengths at a "Time and Place of your choosing" but still didn't get the job done!! That is foolish strategy which is going to haunt Pakistan in coming days.
My slogan "Pakistan men have no balls" is after watching these shenanigans for two decades.
Take the example of yesterday decision regarding "Samjotha Express". What did Pakistan do against such decision!!
In comparison India make such hue and cry on a very small matter. Pakistan men should grow some balls, urgently.
The weird logic that im peddling, which is beyond your comprehension......is the one being "peddled" by Pakistan Armed Forces currently, so don't get worried about me, i am fully aligned with Pakistan Armed Forces.
What you don't understand is that the enemy is looking for an excuse, a reason to somehow damage Pakistan and make a big deal about it, with or without an attack or a full scale war. This makes matter complex. The opportunities you think were presented before us, couldnot have been opportunities which would have brought favorable results to Pakistan. You can look at one side of the picture, the people responsible are looking at all sides of the picture. You may get news from media, hear from word of mouth, learn through discussions...but you were not there when all it happened where as trained military personnel who had their orders from their commanders were present there and did their job. You are blatantly accusing PAF of not carrying out its responsibilities the way you wanted it to carry out. Firstly, you were not in the command seat, a very experienced officer was in there who was giving orders, secondly, you were not in the aircraft's cockpit, a very well trained pilot was manning that aircraft. Now you can go on pointing at PAF's capabilities based on news you hear from left or right, but you only look confused like that. There are people everywhere, like yourself, self proclaimed analysts, who will get a bit of information from here, some from there, trying to make sense out of it and present to the public, possibly with a verdict. You can analyse all you want, its your free will, but unless you have trust in the capabilities and decision making powers of the Armed Forces, the mechanisms which they follow in making a decision and know about hierarchy through which that decision goes through, the capacity and powers in which the concerned officials work and analyse the situation to make an informed decision, the amount of given resources available present at that very moment and the build up of political atmosphere at that time; you are bound to make a mistake in comprehending a simple situation even and make a red out of blue ! This is what's happening over here, tit-bits of information and analyzing situation based on whats available and blaming the Armed Forces for their negligence; a so called negligence which could in reality have been something very opposite but of course as it traveled to you from mouth to mouth and media, a quick step of deterrence transformed into negligence. The first night transformed into next day of onslaught and capturing of an IAF pilot. Instead of starting an all out open war by shooting down enemy aircrafts over enemy territory on 26th feb, the next day PAF secured kills and caught a pilot. You might want to believe that PAF wasn't prepared or a decision wasn't made on 26th Feb so IAF arrived and no kills were made, but both are wrong assumptions. A bluff is a bluff, an instigation is an instigation. IAF wanted PAF to respond and engage IAF aircrafts by firing AAM's to show the world that Pakistan is an aggressor when IAF planes would fall inside IOK. That would have started a full fledged war with sympathies towards India from the rest of the world, who were already standing behind India after Pulwama attack. You are a self-called analyst, i should not be explaining such simple matters to you, but it has come down to this now. IAF instigated and PAF responded. IN tried the same in international waters through its sub, and PN responded with a lock and ready to fire weapon. At the end of the day, how many PAF planes have been shot down, how many pilots have been captured ? None. On 26th Feb, the picture was quite different, but PAF changed the whole scene with favorable results. Who won at the end of the day ? PAF.

Please be reasonable, how can you except a successfully carried out operation the next day from an inept or indecisive force, which according to you could not do anything in "self defense". No one was sacked, no transfers took place in PAF. It was the same command and control which planned, organised and implemented an Air attack operation the next day with awesome results.

I trust the Armed Forces of Pakistan, that they will keep me and other Pakistanis safe. I trust the Armed Forces of Pakistan, that nothing will happen to Pakistan since they are alert, alive and defending Pakistan.
 
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Hi,

Pakistani kids shock me---. India declared war on pakistan---and these pakistani boys are crying----no it is LOC infraction---.

That is why I have stated so many time---an LOC infraction by a sortie of fighter aircraft---after declaring hostile action at will and at a time of their chosing is a declaration of war---.

This " infraction " in kashmir was a part of the thrid strike force that tried to ingress---.

A total number of 40 plus aircraft were used by the enemy in the 3 locations---.

That was an all out war---. That is what pak military should have proclaimed after downing half of them---" we thought it was the starting of a war "---.

@MastanKhan Sahib, I agree that our younger generation is different. It’s not just in Pakistan either. If they are displaying some rational thinking, that is a good thing. It’s very encouraging to have these discussions. Our society has had trouble self analyzing our issues. Critical thinking is a must.... yourself before you start on your adversaries.

Regards,
Tamir
 
Hi,''What you missed was what Pakistan did to " their Col Sharon " in 1965---. Pak military had a general of that capability---before his final onslaughtto cut of the indian army---he was transfered---and this cowardly officer---competent though he was---said " yessir " and left his post to be replaced---the replacement did not show up for two days---.

If he had stood his ground accepted a court martial threat but cut off the indian army and taken over the kashmir region just Col Sharon decimated the egytpian army and would not accept the orders of his superiors for cease fire for days---.

Pakistani generals may be tactically competent---but inherently they are cowards in mind---.

Look at the great Gen Raheel Sharif---Allah gave him the opportunity to build a massive pakistani military force in the gulf and at the expense of gulf states---and his answer a year later was---" bas ghalti ho gayee---uss waqt samajh nahin aayee---".

There was a reason that Indira Gandhi said what she said---" pakistani generals have no ---you go ahead and attack---".
I am aware how Brig and then General Yahya came into picture from Rann of Kutch to Operation GrandSlam to 1965 war to 1971.
I am also aware how Lt Col Nisar of 25 Cavalry helped defend Sialkot in 1965 from Indian Army's 1st Armored Division with help of a few tanks and later in 1971 commanded "Changez Force" to again decimate an Indian Infantry Division almost in the same area. He was not promoted to Major General and that's a tragedy.
...and i'm also aware that Pakistan Army transformed completely after Musharraf and Kiyani era with better command and control environment and promotions.

There are "good" and "bad" factors in every force, while i won't deny the bad ones that happened, i will also highlight the good ones.
 
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@MastanKhan Sahib, I agree that our younger generation is different. It’s not just in Pakistan either. If they are displaying some rational thinking, that is a good thing. It’s very encouraging to have these discussions. Our society has had trouble self analyzing our issues. Critical thinking is a must.... yourself before you start on your adversaries.

Regards,
Tamir


Hi,

And I love you too---.

Wars are ruthless and brutal---incidently pakistan has no seen any---. Otherwise---I would have line of marchers behind me---.

The only saving grace that pak had was an equally incompetent enemy---. But that enemy has new and committed trainers now---who just had to install a new anti missile defense system in their country after feb 27th---.

Apparently Not!

You really lack comprehension skills. You need to go and read my post again and actually try to understand what I was saying first before replying. I even quoted a particular part of your post while making my comment, and you still fail to understand what it meant. Your post is worthy of the kids you bemoan so often.

So go and read the post again and try a second time. Please.

Hi,

At my age---I lack a lots of things---but I keep pushing forward---.
 

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