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Why Pakistan’s army is more popular than its politicians

The data is not 17.5%, Pakistani defence forces get about 26% of budget after all de-facto expenses on Army are calculated. The Defacto Defence budget reaches somewhere about $8.7 Billion.

For India it is 1.83% of GDP, not 2.8%.
What? Wait...it's 17.49989 %...no...may be 26.001993 %.. no ..wait..it's WTF %

Oh BTW, If you will include the pensions and stuff 'into' the defence budget then the total figure may touch $8.5999991543 %, but the pension do not form part of the defence budget.

Yep, i know you just got another itching feeling somewhere down there, and therefore:
This would answer the most important (and also the most redundant) questions:

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Guys, isnt this slide an epOc face-palm for so many around here...?!

---


But most importantly:
Pakistan:
The SECOND Column would tell B.Brigade how the Defence Budget was 'increasing' every year. i wonder how media (and the B.Brigade) manipulates with the words - '$ xyz increase in the budget 20**', 'Defence Budget to expand again this year' etc etc:

slide78.jpg

india:
Compare the third and second last columns with Silde # 78:
slide79.jpg
 
The article is so unbelievably (& laughably) bad, that I have been left rather speechless. Finding correlations in things that have not even the slightest. Talking about the distribution of different ethnic groups, as well as revenues generated to show how 'stable' a province is (both of these are flawed arguments as well). And the icing on the cake, what does any of this have to do with 'why is the Army so popular in Pakistan'? What correlation does 'stability' have with how popular the Army is?

there is a saying that after partition of British India, Pakistan inherited the army and India inherited the civil society. Now it could be laughable, stereotypical and generalisation much, but the author argues in the same line.

Also he says that middle class urdu speakers from Bihar and UP successfully replaced the loss of middle class in sindh and thus bringing equilibrium, however in case of punjab it never happened and they stayed half a nation.

IMO, this is the gist of the article.
 
With respect to defence spending and the 'guns vs butter' debate, I think it would be more relevant to focus on defence spending as a percentage of the total budget, rather than arguing over a few percentage points here and there in terms of the proportion of defence spending to GDP - the latter being an estimate in any case and often times varying from source to source.

It is the budget that determines what resources are allocated where, and if one is to argue that more funds need to be pumped into development, education, health etc. then it is the budgetary allocations one needs to look at. Of course the budget alone, in terms of allocations, does not offer a very clear picture - the budget deficit is an important component to take into account as well, since the budget can be inflated and various allocations made to look lower, as a percentage of the total budget, by excessive borrowing.
 
What? Wait...it's 17.49989 %...no...may be 26.001993 %.. no ..wait..it's WTF %

Xeric Bhai, cool down Dimag thanda rakho. 17.5% is the budget allocated directly by the government. Apart from this Army gets budget from other departments of the government like giving pension to Ex-Armymen, Army infrastructure projects etc and that increases Pakistan budget to 26% and becomes 4.5% of GDP. Pakistan budget allocation is $5.75 Billion but it will reach $8.7 Billion spending. Same for India budget allocation is $36 Billion but it will reach $45 Billion when all de-facto spending is calculated.
 
How many of NLI would be ethnic Kashmiris and how many would be from areas near mirpur.
Most literature on the NLI indicates they are recruited from the native ethnic groups.

There is an interesting thread on the NLI here:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-forces/33121-northern-light-infantry-victors.html

WRT to soldiers who are from Mirpur - it is a district in Azad Kashmir is it not? And if you are so adamant that the PA is 'fudging its figures' why don't you provide some credible sources to back it up?
Anyway induction of NLI is quite recent while we discussing events which were the after effect of partition.
No, the induction of the NLI debunks your propaganda that the PA's demographic statistics for 2010 and 2011 are concocted, since it validates the '9% soldiers from Kashmir and GB' statistic.

---------- Post added at 02:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:28 PM ----------

Xeric Bhai, cool down Dimag thanda rakho. 17.5% is the budget allocated directly by the government. Apart from this Army gets budget from other departments of the government like giving pension to Ex-Armymen, Army infrastructure projects etc and that increases Pakistan budget to 26% and becomes 4.5% of GDP. Pakistan budget allocation is $5.75 Billion but it will reach $8.7 Billion spending. Same for India budget allocation is $36 Billion but it will reach $45 Billion when all de-facto spending is calculated.
Why should Xeric cool down when you just repeated the same canard that he debunked in the post you are responding to and asking him to 'cool down' over?

Are you even reading the posts? Xeric's slide quite clearly points out that 'pensions etc.' are kept separate from the defence budget in many nations, including India and the US, so if you want to really take those into account, you need to also do the same for the Indian and US defence budgets, in order to make the comparison valid.

Could you provide the numbers and sources that result in your final figures of 8.7 and 45 billion?
 
Also he says that middle class urdu speakers from Bihar and UP successfully replaced the loss of middle class in sindh and thus bringing equilibrium, however in case of punjab it never happened and they stayed half a nation.

IMO, this is the gist of the article.

What 'equilibrium' is supposedly lacking in Punjab vs Sindh?
 
AgNoStIc MuSliM, the demographic shift is the result of sudden mass requirements, not gradual induction from all over the country which reflects PA's policy change.

The mirpuris are culturally Punjabis, I have been told, I'll read up more about NLI.

Last but not the least it has whatsoever no relation with the article being discussed.

---------- Post added at 01:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:11 AM ----------

Gnite folks, office tomorrow!
 
Well, quite frankly, it doesn't matter what % of India's GDP is spent on defense, India's defense budget is still bigger than Pakistan's overall budget.

But you can't compare apple to Oranges.

Its obvious because the GDP size is 10 times, overall annual budget this year is huge at 12.6 Trillion Indian Rupees, trade of $600 billion is huge. So, it is not an issue for India to Afford big.
 
Most literature on the NLI indicates they are recruited from the native ethnic groups.

There is an interesting thread on the NLI here:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-forces/33121-northern-light-infantry-victors.html

WRT to soldiers who are from Mirpur - it is a district in Azad Kashmir is it not? And if you are so adamant that the PA is 'fudging its figures' why don't you provide some credible sources to back it up?

No, the induction of the NLI debunks your propaganda that the PA's demographic statistics for 2010 and 2011 are concocted, since it validates the '9% soldiers from Kashmir and GB' statistic.

---------- Post added at 02:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:28 PM ----------


Why should Xeric cool down when you just repeated the same canard that he debunked in the post you are responding to and asking him to 'cool down' over?

Are you even reading the posts? Xeric's slide quite clearly points out that 'pensions etc.' are kept separate from the defence budget in many nations, including India and the US, so if you want to really take those into account, you need to also do the same for the Indian and US defence budgets, in order to make the comparison valid.

Could you provide the numbers and sources that result in your final figures of 8.7 and 45 billion?

Read the following,
Defence budget and national security – The Express Tribune
Pakistan: CATCH-22 OF DEFENCE SPENDING | Opinion Maker
PAKISTAN OBSERVER: RAVI RIKHYE ON PAKISTANS DEFENCE BUDGET AND THE INDIA PAKISTAN CHINA DEFENCE EQUATION
 
AgNoStIc MuSliM, the demographic shift is the result of sudden mass requirements, not gradual induction from all over the country which reflects PA's policy change.

The mirpuris are culturally Punjabis, I have been told, I'll read up more about NLI.

Last but not the least it has whatsoever no relation with the article being discussed.
But is the author not arguing that the 'popularity of the Army' is somehow intertwined with a Punjabi majority Army - in which case pointing out he changing demographics of the military debunk the authors premise, since the Army demographics now largely follow the national demographics.

BTW, whether you consider the Mirpuris to be culturally Punjabi or not (and you have not yet illustrated how many of the 9% recruits from Kashmir and GB are Mirpuris or Punjabis), the population of Kashmir is not included in the census (AFAIK) - if it was, then that would change the overall demographic numbers, wouldn't it?
 
But you can't compare apple to Oranges.

Its obvious because the GDP size is 10 times, overall annual budget this year is huge at 12.6 Trillion Indian Rupees, trade of $600 billion is huge. So, it is not an issue for India to Afford big.

India still spends similar % by GDP, & % of the country's budget on defense as Pakistan does.

P.S. India's GDP in 2010 was $1.538 trillion ($1538 billion), Pakistan's GDP in 2010 was $174.9 billion.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/in.html

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/pk.html

1538/174.9 = 8.79

India's 2011 GDP is $1.73 trillion ($1730 trillion), Pakistan's 2011 GDP is $210.8 billion.

Anyways, this is not an economics thread, so I won't be talking about it anymore.
 
India still spends similar % by GDP, & % of the country's budget on defense as Pakistan does.

P.S. India's GDP in 2010 was $1.538 trillion ($1538 billion), Pakistan's GDP in 2010 was $174.9 billion.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/in.html

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/pk.html

1538/174.9 = 8.79

India's 2011 GDP is $1.73 trillion ($1730 trillion), Pakistan's 2011 GDP is $210.8 billion.

Anyways, this is not an economics thread, so I won't be talking about it anymore.

I will trust world bank data more than CIA factbook.

And other astonishing fact how Pakistan economy expanded to $210 Billion from $174.9 Billion during 2010-2011 with GDP growth of 2.4% and economy expanding by 19% and India having just expansion of 13% with GDP growth rate of 8.5 during that period. I am going dizzy. :hitwall: Even during same period Pakistan had more inflation than India.
 
9 % of Punjabis were given Kashmiri status who were missing in 2001 data.

2 % more since 2001 when Sindhis were 15 % and Baluch were 2 %.

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One might have different idea from the title and below excerpt -

It's indeed based on the facts.

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Only 2 % increase of Sindhi population since 2001, the sudden downwards of jump of Punjabi fraction in Army is because of sudden 9% induction from Azad Kashmir.
Punjabis dominate PA, it's fact, anyone saying otherwise is just turning a blind eye towards the reality.

You remind me of a story a friend once SMSed me, i have kept it in my inbox just for the guys like yourself:

A very rich man went 2 a vilage with his son. to show him HOW POOR CAN PEOPLE B.
On return, father askd "WHAT DID U LEARN?"
Son replied,
"We have no cattles but THEY HAVE 4."
"We have a swiming pool whch is quite big but THEY HAVE A LAKE & ITS END CAN'T BE FOUND."
"Our garden has imported lamps but THEY HAVE A SKY FULL OF STARS."
"Our courtyard ends after few yards but THEY HAVE THE WHOLE WORLD AHEAD TO PLAY.
THANKS DADY FOR SHOWING ME HOW POOR WE R!


It is said that one cannot do ANYTHING about the following kind of people (i am sure you'll agree):

1- Jo admi apkay moo per jhoot bol day (the one who can lie right at your face)

2- Jo nehar/darya k dosray paar say apko apna **** nikal k dikha k bhag jaye (the one who swings his dick at you while standing on the other bank of a river/canal)

3- Pessimists

4- Hatermongers/Prejudiced Rascals

Please see, where do you fit in?

Xeric, I don't think PA officially discriminate people based on ethnicity, it's just that PA and IA are continuation of British Indian Army and historically Muslim Punjabis made the bulk of the armed forces. It's the martial race theory in effect.

So you agree that Sindhis/Balochis dont really want to join the military rather like to opr for other professions, right?

This was exactly what i was going to say when you started acting like a troll and made me post my 'knowledge' about them.

So i was saying that i have been part of the recruitment drive for Balochis, and man that was one thankless job! You just cant think what all we did to 'motivate' our Balochi brethren to join the Army. Infact i was part of the team who was visiting various cantts in Balochistan where the units had recruited the Balochi youth, to find out if the units have met the bare minimum criteria for recruitment (as we have already relaxed the standards for them quite a bit). Now in the areas (in Balochistan) where there was the availability of some kind of natural resource (gas, minerals - limestone, graphite etc, coal, copper, marble etc), the turnout of youth for recruitment was the lowest.

For instance, in the place (no names because it gives of the locations) there was such abundance of limestone and graphite that people were digging it out with their bare hands!!!!!!!!!!!! They had made boundary walls around that hole/well and had actually built their homes around it - they were living in it. No they each household used to send off atleast 3-4 truck load of limestone/graphite every day. This coupled with no Tax deduction, no development fee, no levy for Dept of Mines and Minerals etc was like each of them have their own gold mine!

Now tell me, would these guys ever come towards finding a 'job'?

Second, i dont know if you know Balochs nd Pathans, but i know them inside out. Let's talk about Pathans (about half of thr population of Balochistan is Pathan). i know Pathans who HATE jobs! i mean they would polish other people's shoes on the streets but would NOT like work "under' some boss (job)! They will have a Khokha of Niswar at a Godforsaken place where their sale would be zero, but they will not even work for the NGOs or the UN Programs (working there for their betterment and paying them mind blowing salaries), that's how Balochistan is, and you expect them to join the Army?

Third, just try to visit an Army Recruitment center in Sargodha, Multan, Lahore, Peshawar, Kohat, Hyderabad, Karachi etc, you will find youngsters reaching the recruitment centers DAYS before the opening with all the bedding, pillows and stuff!! They would sleep outside the centers, damn it! So that they can get into that 'queue' earlier than other guys - that's the kind of fierce competition out there to join the military, butwe dont find such zeal in Balochistan.

It's only since the last 1o years (since the Army began a special effort to recruit Balochis) that they have started coming towards this profession. This is because, Balochistanis (not Balochis - tanis include all the ethnicities in Balochistan) as a sub-nation dont like to stay 'away' from their homes, yes their mud huts and caves. They would not like to spend nights 'out' of their houses. Come what may, they would prefer to starve rather than go and serve at Lahore or Karachi or even Quetta. This is primrily because 1) they have some kind of income generation system (though very poor) in the vicinity of their villages, like shepparding, goats/lambs, mining, farming etc or the least, they being a tough lot, dont require much comfort, no electricity, no gas, they would just grow 3-4 acres of wheat, keep livestock (mostly lambs), cut trees for fuel/heating/cooking and that's it. In short, its very difficult to get them out of their 'world' which they feel is filled with harmony and stuff.

We had to 'beg' them to join the military, they resisted like hell at first, yound boys would tell me; oye laka, tum suna hai seesha (glass) or choona (limestone) mix kar k pilata hai logo training k doran (you guys make recruits eat broken glass mixed with limestone during training to make them tough), and i was like, damn, even the SSG dont train like this.

So this is just one example that how their minds were far 'away' from 'jobs' especially a tough one like the military.

Also they being a proud cult, dont like to be ordered around, the basic stuff in any military, it took alot of effort to get them to understand that there is a difference between discipline and people ordering you around.

And now when they are aware that the military 'job' do not 'bite', they have started joining the military in flocks.

It's been like 8, 6 may be 7 years since i left Balochistan (my posting) and i still receive calls from guys who i dont even know asking me for safarish them into the Army!!! And my first reply ALWAYS is, why the heck you didnt join when we were 'begging' you??!! And their reply ALWAYS is; 'Sir galati hogaya'

Now what do you want? That the Balochis and Sindhis (oh and yes i have a similar story regarding the Sindhis also) should fill up the Army over night (withing 2-3 years ) or as Agno said, should the Punajbis drown themselves in Indus to let their Balochi and Sindhi brothers take their place in the Army?

SO, like i said, try to find the category you fit in among the sampling i have done above.

Taking a wild guess, most of them would have come from areas near Mirpur.
You dont even know a shyt about how many Mirpurs are there inside Pakistan and you are trying to take a guess!

We'll talk again when you would understand what i was trying to say here.
 
Can anyone become leader of PPP-no, PNA(N)-no, anyone with merit and hard work lead armed forces-yes
 

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