Turkey’s Air Force Is Obsolete, Warns New Study

[CatSultan]

valid point never the less. Turkey needs to replace the lost F-35s

F 35 is a faliure.

 

[MMM-E]

Turkey's air force is going the way of Iran's air force. Sure, prop drones are good. But they are not substitute for high powered manned combat jets. Whereas Iran has F-14, Turkey has F-16.

Turkey has 230+ F-16
İran has 25-30 F-14s

and future is unmanned Fighter Jet

Turkey develops artificial intelligence-equipped unmanned Fighter Jet MIUS by 2023

This can make Turkey one of the leading countries in the field like it has succeeded with its game-changing UCAVs

We must prepare for the races of the future today and look to be a leader toward where the world is headed

 

[LeGenD]

F 35 is a faliure.

Absolutely not! F-35 is combat-tested and operational in different environments of the world.

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

Turkey has 230+ F-16
İran has 25-30 F-14s

and future is unmanned Fighter Jet

Turkey develops artificial intelligence-equipped unmanned Fighter Jet MIUS by 2023

This can make Turkey one of the leading countries in the field like it has succeeded with its “game-changing” UCAVs

We must prepare for the races of the future today and look to be a leader toward where the world is headed

Out of Turkey's 200 or so F-16, how many of them can actually fly? I would say roughly 50 to 100. Years of arms embargo by the west and shortage of spare parts is taking its toll.

 

[Oublious]

Out of Turkey's 200 or so F-16, how many of them can actually fly? I would say roughly 50 to 100. Years of arms embargo by the west and shortage of spare parts is taking its toll.

Don't lie, Turkish F16 are all operational. And ther is no ambargo on F16.

 

[MMM-E]

Out of Turkey's 200 or so F-16, how many of them can actually fly? I would say roughly 50 to 100. Years of arms embargo by the west and shortage of spare parts is taking its toll.

All of them can actually fly

Spare parts for the F-16s have been stored for some time
.. No problem in short-term solution until 2030
Turkish Engine Industries can offer solutions for engine maintenance and repairs, and military electronics specialist Aselsan can modernize avionics when required. If necessary

even the service life of 35 F-16 Block 30 extended from 8.000 hours to 12000 hours

and Turkey will use AKINCI , AKSUNGUR , MIUS , HURJET , S400 , SIPER instead of F-16s in many missions
It can save a great deal of the service life of our F-16s

 

[ziaulislam]

Yes JF-17 Block 3 is a total non-starter for Turkey.


However I think you underestimate the problems that Greek Rafales and F-35s will be for the TAF this decade.

Although Turkey is improving quickly, the French AESA radar and avionics on the Rafale are going to be better than what Turkey can put into its F-16s and the Meteor will be in a class of its own. F-35 will be another step-up.

Turkey will have to rely on greater numbers and assymetrical warfare(cruise missiles/MLRS) in order to stay relevant with Greek airpower as this decade progresses.

Greece cant compete with turkey
Few rafale dont chnage the overwhelming superiorty turkey has in ECM AWECSand integrated airforce

Yes f35 will change things

Turkey only bottleneck is engines and they are aborbing alot of techn already from USA and ukrain

 

[UKBengali]

Greece cant compete with turkey
Few rafale dont chnage the overwhelming superiorty turkey has in ECM AWECSand integrated airforce

Yes f35 will change things

Turkey only bottleneck is engines and they are aborbing alot of techn already from USA and ukrain

18 is not a “few” Rafales.

Combine this with 20-24 F-35s and TAF has a real headache on its hands.

 

[ziaulislam]

18 is not a “few” Rafales.

Combine this with 20-24 F-35s and TAF has a real headache on its hands.

Where are the f35s?
And 18 are few non AESA old rafales especially since block of turkish f16s will get AESA soon

 

[White and Green with M/S]

Turks have started creating national defense industry after arms embargo on Turkey by The US in 1975
and Nobody gives critical technologies to another Country


The US ? The US even doesnt give a pistol to Turkey

France ? which one ?

France blocked deal of Turkey with EUROSAM to develop Air Defense System

Turkey develops itself and NATO Countries use arms embargo on Turkey

NATO gave you their critical techs when they were slightly old for them
BAE is giving helping you to develop avionics for your TFX project I mean guiding you how to make complex avionics for 5th gen jets, USA gave you their composite material technology when you're the part of F-35 project ( Turkey's main Job was to built central fuselage of F-35)

If you're self sufficient in all military fields why you're running to get the foreign engines for TFX (EJ-200 or GE-F-110) for first flight of TFX
You have to admit you gain lots of critical military TECHNOLOGIES from West/NATO but I have to admit you improve these critical military TECHNOLOGIES gave by West/USA by yourself

 

[Oublious]

NATO gave you their critical techs when they were slightly old for them

Prove it...

 

[Bengal71]

Agree, going for the S-400 was a bad choice(especially considering the fact that the US warned them of getting kicked out of the F-35 program), but i guess Erdogan's pride/ego made him to lose some sort of rationality here. It was overall a bad deal for Turkey.

They probably went for the S-400 because they wanted a capability to shoot down US aircraft in TuAF inventory if they try to pull a coup. Last time during the coup Turkish F-16s were flying in the skies and nothing could be done about them, Turkish helicopter gunships were strafing people.

 

[donkeykong]

At this rate egypts airforce is going to dwarf turkeys soon.

 

[Smarana Mitra]

This trade-off is due to Russians being unable to develop a VLO-compliant airframe for a jet fighter which can withstand significant stresses of maneuverability.

Americans managed to develop true VLO-compliant airframes for jet fighters which can withstand significant stresses of maneuverability on the other hand.

LINK: https://www.slideshare.net/robbinla...ing-a-21st-century-fighter-from-the-ground-up





Maneuverability is helpful but not a requirement in numerous combat situations. Desired outcome is First Look - First Shot - First kill instead (see below).

The F35 has poor maneuverability due to the various compromises. Russia tried to avoid that. So, at the end, it was not Russian inability to make airframes of good quality. Making airframes is never an issue for most modern countries. USA B2 bombers and its sister variants have almost 0 maneuverability and can be taken down relatively easily. F22 has maneuverabilty but for some reason it has been stopped from production. Cost is definitely not the correct reasoning as USA has not stopped F35 despite its developmental costs exceeding $60 billion. There must have been some secretive shortcomings in f22 that made USA stop its production.

True VLO-compliant airframe including fuselage is designed in such a way that it is able to deflect incoming radar waves in directions away from the airframe (typically lower wavelengths) and/or absorb waves to large extent (typically higher wavelengths).

Source: Japanese FC2 Wiki

Russian and/or Chinese VHF (anti-stealth) radar systems are programmed to detect resonance effects/oscillations in particular.

Source: Aircraft 101

Source: Aircraft 101

While moving from Higher Frequency Bands to Lower Frequency Bands (moving from the Optical regime to the Resonance/Mie regime), specular reflection decreases in its intensity but its Lobe Width increases proportionally. Creeping waves also become more pronounced in the mix. This can lead to interference between specular reflection and creeping waves which is likely to produce resonance effects/oscillations by extension (when this interference is constructive, the RCS is higher; when this interference is destructive the RCS is lower). Therefore, resonance effects can be pronounced in the Resonance/Mie region, and a radar system operating in one of the lower frequency bands can be configured to pick on these effects.

Source: Aircraft 101

Interference between specular reflection and creeping waves can be observed in certain spots of a particular airframe in the Resonance/Mie region in Anechoic Chambers.

1. Application of trailing edges on the surface of airframe in such spots can help curb such interference and/or make it destructive:

Source: Aircraft 101

2. Multilayered airframe construction pattern with absorbents in the mix:

LINK: https://slideplayer.com/slide/12976539/

NOTE: Top-coating is most likely Carbon-based RAM application (very effective)

Source: Aircraft 101



Russian and/or Chinese VHF (anti-stealth) radar systems for reference:

Source: Dr. Carlo Kopp

F-22A Raptor and F-35 variants are very likely to fall below 0.01 RCS mark in this graph.

Outcome is eventually this:

Source: Aircraft 101

- across multiple radar systems in the A2/AD sector. Like this:

LINK: https://www.slideshare.net/robbinla...ing-a-21st-century-fighter-from-the-ground-up

True VLO-compliant jet fighter can slip through much reduced A2/AD rings (byproduct of its effects), or the pilot of an F-35 variant might choose to DESTROY A2/AD arrangements from substantial distances with relevant standoff munitions.

Keep in mind following military operation of IAF in Syria in 2019 in which big-ticket items such as Chinese-origin YJ-27 radar system and Russian-origin SA-22 system were knocked-out in pursuit of other targets nearby:

VLO aircrafts have only frontal stealth. So, if there is network centric warfare with radars across all directions, the VLO will be defeated. For example, a VLO plane coming towards Islamabad from Jammu can be detected by having radars in Lahore and Gilgit-Baltistan as the VLO planes only have frontal stealth and not sideway stealth. So, even the VLO planes have to use maneuverability to hide behind mountains and geographies. Pure VLO is overrated and maneuverability is still needed.

Secondly, lower frequency radars can detect VLO planes. The only drawback with lower frequency radars is that they can only find approximate locations and not exact pinpointing. Nevertheless, once the plane is detected, other radars can be directed towards it with higher intensity and neutralise it. Russia is an expert in this field. Most likely it recognised this fact and hence decided against pure VLO. It is true that Su57 has lower stealth but that is because Russians chose maneuverability and not because Russians did not have the capability to make F35 like design.

"There are ways to combine techniques. Layered magnetic materials can reduce RCS by 10 dB from 2-20 GHz with 0.3 in. of depth. Hybrid RAMs can be created with a front layer of graded dielectric and a back layer of magnetic material to attenuate radar reflections from VHF to Ku-band." - The Aviation Special Report (State of Stealth)

This may be true but the problem is that these kind of paints cost too much and don't last very long. As the plane flies at high speeds, the paint tends to wear off and make things worse. Having such paint reduces the serviceability of planes. That is also why planes seek to have design based stealth rather than just applying RAM paint. Otherwise, even F16 can be made into stealth plane by RAM

Electronic Warfare (EW) capabilities of the F-35 variants is another aspect that I have not expanded upon in this response. In case you are wondering, F-35 variants have substantial EW capabilities (top-of-the-line). These capabilities will have significant effects of their own.

Yes, this is true. F35 radars are like mini-AWACS and it has other powerful EW capabilities.

 

[redtom]

The procurement of the S400 is a strategic decision of diplomacy that cannot be considered solely from a technical point of view.

Turkey can't rely on US support against Israel, when there is a conflict between Turkey and Israel, US will be 100% on Israel's side.

Russia is the best option for Turkey.Although Russia and Turkey have a long history of war.But neither Russia nor Turkey has the capacity to expand in the foreseeable future, and there is little chance of conflict.As a Chinese, I can be sure that China will not directly support Turkey in a war, when Turkey and the EU come into conflict, China will only remain neutral.But I believe Chinese technology can be applied to Russian weapons in the future.It is in China's interest to help Russia match America's level of conventional weapons technology.