Second Hand F-16's for PAF

[Paan Singh]

Will Second-Hand F-16 Sales Rise With Budget Cuts?

As countries struggle under the current economic climate, defense budgets have taken a major hit causing many to invest in used fighter aircraft.

Over the last few years, developing nations have taken to buying used F-16s from allies to strengthen their air forces without spending billions on buying new aircraft.

While Lockheed Martin will charge about $70 million for a brand new F-16, a second-hand jet will cost just $15 million. For many countries on a budget, that is an attractive offer.

Budget strapped countries like Pakistan, Indonesia and Jordon besides some EU states procure used F-16 fighter jets to supplement their air forces.

Earlier this month, Portugal agreed to supply Romania with an unknown number of F-16 aircraft.

“Second-hand fighters do not mean the same thing as a second-hand car. They are disassembled to the last pieces of wing. When they are reassembled they can be used in safe conditions. The fighters are very well maintained,” said Romania’s Defence Minister Corneliu Dobritoiu.

Jordon in 2007 signed an agreement with Belgium for the sale of 14 F-16s worth $90 million. Earlier in 2009, Chile purchased 18 F-16 aircraft from the Netherlands in a contract worth $270 million.

In 2011, Pakistan requested the sale of an undisclosed number of used F-16s from the U.S to increase its air capabilities.

“Because of the disparity with India, our needs are huge,” a diplomat was quoted as saying. “Ideally, we should buy new F-16s but the current economy does not allow us to pay $40-50 million apiece”.

The same year, Indonesia agreed to buy 24 aircraft from the U.S with the first batch of 14 expected to be delivered in 2014.

Romania also purchased 24 used jets from the U.S in 2010. "We have no money and we cannot commit ourselves to such a contract without a long-term financing scheme,” said Romanian President Traian Basescu, after European groups Eurofighter and Saab criticized the transaction.

While the buyers are walking, or rather flying away with the low-cost, used F-16s, the sellers (Portugal, U.S, Netherlands, etc.) are also making a small profit that will be used to procure new replacements.

Taiwan, for instance, has awarded Lockheed Martin a $1.85 billion contract to upgrade the avionics of 145 Taiwanese Lockheed Martin F-16 A/B aircraft. Meanwhile, it is also currently negotiating with the U.S for the sale of used F-16C/D and intends to submit a letter of request (LoR) soon.

Will Second-Hand F-16 Sales Rise With Budget Cuts? : Defense news

 

[[--Leo--]]

When the last F-16 Block 52 was dilvered to PAF ....in the ceremony..talking to media .....then kamar sulemon said US is giving second hand F-16 for free of cost i do remember that so for pakistan no need for purchsing it

J10B is on its way will be inducted by 2014

 

[1ndy]

First there were news of second hand su30 sales now f16 good.

 

[MilSpec]

Few question arises if there is any truth in the article;

As per pakistani claims; FC1 is as good as F16A/B in PAF inventory; then why buy old f16's instead of relying of brand spanking new FC1's??????

As per pakistani/chinese experts, J10/FC20 comprehensively beats Su30MKK of chinese in mock combats, and here on the forum are regarded better than the f16blk56; Has PAF lost it's confidence in J10B or are there any complication in chinese soft loan policy

PAF air chiefs have time and again stated they have maintained minimum credible deterrence against India and are capable of answering any Indian misadventure. With Indian squadron strength depleting every year and no new jets (except MKI) till 2014; what has prompted this sudden insecurity; especially when there are peace talks and better trade relation between both countries.

 

[Nishan_101]

Will Second-Hand F-16 Sales Rise With Budget Cuts?

As countries struggle under the current economic climate, defense budgets have taken a major hit causing many to invest in used fighter aircraft.

Over the last few years, developing nations have taken to buying used F-16s from allies to strengthen their air forces without spending billions on buying new aircraft.

While Lockheed Martin will charge about $70 million for a brand new F-16, a second-hand jet will cost just $15 million. For many countries on a budget, that is an attractive offer.

Budget strapped countries like Pakistan, Indonesia and Jordon besides some EU states procure used F-16 fighter jets to supplement their air forces.

Earlier this month, Portugal agreed to supply Romania with an unknown number of F-16 aircraft.

“Second-hand fighters do not mean the same thing as a second-hand car. They are disassembled to the last pieces of wing. When they are reassembled they can be used in safe conditions. The fighters are very well maintained,” said Romania’s Defence Minister Corneliu Dobritoiu.

Jordon in 2007 signed an agreement with Belgium for the sale of 14 F-16s worth $90 million. Earlier in 2009, Chile purchased 18 F-16 aircraft from the Netherlands in a contract worth $270 million.

In 2011, Pakistan requested the sale of an undisclosed number of used F-16s from the U.S to increase its air capabilities.

“Because of the disparity with India, our needs are huge,” a diplomat was quoted as saying. “Ideally, we should buy new F-16s but the current economy does not allow us to pay $40-50 million apiece”.

The same year, Indonesia agreed to buy 24 aircraft from the U.S with the first batch of 14 expected to be delivered in 2014.

Romania also purchased 24 used jets from the U.S in 2010. "We have no money and we cannot commit ourselves to such a contract without a long-term financing scheme,” said Romanian President Traian Basescu, after European groups Eurofighter and Saab criticized the transaction.

While the buyers are walking, or rather flying away with the low-cost, used F-16s, the sellers (Portugal, U.S, Netherlands, etc.) are also making a small profit that will be used to procure new replacements.

Taiwan, for instance, has awarded Lockheed Martin a $1.85 billion contract to upgrade the avionics of 145 Taiwanese Lockheed Martin F-16 A/B aircraft. Meanwhile, it is also currently negotiating with the U.S for the sale of used F-16C/D and intends to submit a letter of request (LoR) soon.

Will Second-Hand F-16 Sales Rise With Budget Cuts? : Defense news

I don't want to comment on this. But wanted to share some reality which is PAF was keen to join in the J-10 program to have about 50 J-10 and about 70 J-10B and 70 J-10C along with the proposed 300 JF-17s. Due to the lack of money and infrastructure we are not able to do that.

But now we are not going for older F-16s any more only our own 14 remaining jets and 70 J-10BS/F-10P

 

[Vibs]

Wonder what kind of spares or lifetime service arrangements go with these second hand sales? Also, what about the weapons systems? Wouldn't procuring these from original suppliers pose a big problem?

 

[SEAL]

Few question arises if there is any truth in the article;

As per pakistani claims; FC1 is as good as F16A/B in PAF inventory; then why buy old f16's instead of relying of brand spanking new FC1's??????

As per pakistani/chinese experts, J10/FC20 comprehensively beats Su30MKK of chinese in mock combats, and here on the forum are regarded better than the f16blk56; Has PAF lost it's confidence in J10B or are there any complication in chinese soft loan policy

PAF air chiefs have time and again stated they have maintained minimum credible deterrence against India and are capable of answering any Indian misadventure. With Indian squadron strength depleting every year and no new jets (except MKI) till 2014; what has prompted this sudden insecurity; especially when there are peace talks and better trade relation between both countries.

Yup JF-17 is better than Block 15 F-16 (Note PAF F-16s A/B getting upgrades to Block 52 standards)
JF-17 is light weight aircraft and primary purpose is replacement of F-7s and Mirages.
Getting more F-16 is bonus because we have more than 30 years experience on them and US yet to release our embargoed 14 F-16s.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Few question arises if there is any truth in the article;

As per pakistani claims; FC1 is as good as F16A/B in PAF inventory; then why buy old f16's instead of relying of brand spanking new FC1's??????

As per pakistani/chinese experts, J10/FC20 comprehensively beats Su30MKK of chinese in mock combats, and here on the forum are regarded better than the f16blk56; Has PAF lost it's confidence in J10B or are there any complication in chinese soft loan policy

PAF air chiefs have time and again stated they have maintained minimum credible deterrence against India and are capable of answering any Indian misadventure. With Indian squadron strength depleting every year and no new jets (except MKI) till 2014; what has prompted this sudden insecurity; especially when there are peace talks and better trade relation between both countries.

JF-17 Vs F-16 A/B is equal to or good at in dog fighting capability, in payload & range, F-16 even the older ones are superior. And 2nd hand F-16s won't be much good, basic idea is to buy 2nd hand at cheap prices and then upgrade them to MLU standard and make it electronic wise as near as it gets to F-16 Blk 52s.

There is no issue in J-10Bs with regard to having confidence in them as the plane has still upgrade to do and its yet to mature or any loan related stuff as loan negotiations has not yet been discussed or started. Only technical discussions on the plane has so far happened and a desire to procure 2 Sqds shown as of now.

Also, told thousand times, we have been operating F-16s for last many decades, we know this plane inside out, we have trained manpower, pilots, training regime, infrastructure in place, friendly countries use this plane, it has yet many years of service left after the MLU upgrades. For JF-17s & J-10s, lot of time is required to integrate them fully, while F-16s won't be much of a problem for integration.

And as for your 3rd para, whatever you said holds true for the time being, but in a few years time things will change, so why not prepare for it right now. Even if we buy 2nd hand jets, MLU upgrades will take time, atleast a few years, thus by the time 2014-15, IAF starts getting new jets, we incase do buy 2nd hand jets would start getting may be MLU upgraded F-16s. Thus we may incase of addition of new jets would be having something close to or in the 90-100 figure range upgraded F-16s comprising of Blk 52s & MLU ones, a decent first line force complemented by JF-17s & some older models of fighters. J-10B has an induction year as of now if all goes well 2014-15/16, and in PAF service they will be at full strength or matured by 2020 or so.

Till then a 90-100 or so fully upgraded and new Blk 52s would be doing their job.

Plus, PAF would always like to have a western jet at hand for some obvious reasons.

 

[fatman17]

upgraded/MLU'd F-16's are as good as new - they just dont 'smell' new.!!

PAF's original plan was for 110 F-16's. they are hell-bent to get them from any source - EDA or other countries selling them.

 

[Armstrong]

upgraded/MLU'd F-16's are as good as new - they just dont 'smell' new.!!

I read somewhere that these 'Second Hand F 16s' are actually deconstructed to the nut before being put back together with the parts that need replacement being replaced & others added (in case of the MLU) ! Is this an accurate description of what happpens ?

 

[SpArK]

what happened to MMRCA?

To be finalised by March 2013. There are virtually daily meetings between the aircraft partners, Dassault, Thales and engine maker Snecma on the one side and IAF, HAL and defence ministry representatives on the other.

 

[TaimiKhan]

I read somewhere that these 'Second Hand F 16s' are actually deconstructed to the nut before being put back together with the parts that need replacement being replaced & others added (in case of the MLU) ! Is this an accurate description of what happpens ?

Not fully deconstructed or taken apart, but they are made nearly a skeleton, and then returned back to normal look.

Its an extensive overhaul.

 

[Windjammer]

Just for the records, here are a PAF F-16 (MLU) and a Block-52 Viper, apart from the apparent CFTs and some other minor appearances, there is very little between the two fighters.

 

[SQ8]

Few question arises if there is any truth in the article;

As per pakistani claims; FC1 is as good as F16A/B in PAF inventory; then why buy old f16's instead of relying of brand spanking new FC1's??????

Faster integration..
The F-16's are already inducted into the PAF, means the training regimen, logistics etc is all in place.
Also, the F-16 has a different niche when compared to the JF-17 as its more oriented as a multi-role striker suited for OCA ops while the JF-17 would be better suited to take on the air defence role first and then BAI, CAS and so on .

The question is not of insecurity, its the same as of the IAF's need to order massive numbers of MKI's MMRCAs etc.
The PAF does not want numerical parity, it wants technological parity.. and many of the older mirages and F-7's now need a better aircraft to replace them.. the JF-17 is coming, but not quick enough.

 

[sancho]

The PAF does not want numerical parity, it wants technological parity

But if that is the case, J10B is clearly the way to go instead of limiting PAF to 4th gen techs, that hardly brings them on par with IAFs upgraded Mirage and Mig 29s.
Unless the US will provide PAF with something like the F16 B60, 2nd hand F16s will only add up numbers, but not quality.