What's new

Pakistan may study other fighter options as US asks Pakistan to make full payment for F-16 purchase

Strings ? Like what? China is still their best buddy,largest trade and defence partner .. And despite "copy right issues" .. They have sold em SU-35s? Almost all of Chinese systems in the past were based on Russian weapons .. And yet Russia didnt do anything...

And do you know what? Even Israel sells sophisticated equipment like radars etc to China... Recently a Chinese company was marketing radar based ELM 2052 .

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...-strongly-resembles-israeli-product/32108793/

Yes strings, all contracts have it. Such as selling it to third parties, copyright issues I could go on and on.

What you suggesting is that China buy the SU-35 but give it to Pakistan?

According to Kommersant, the deal does not involve domestic production of Su-35s in China, a condition usually desired by Beijing due to its strategic goal of producing an entire range of the weapons it uses on its own territory.
 
Yes strings, all contracts have it. Such as selling it to third parties, copyright issues I could go on and on.

What you suggesting is that China buy the SU-35 but give it to Pakistan?
I'm sure they were also in place in the past ? When Chinese built SU-33s,Su-27/30 series and many other stuff ?

Remember the RD-93 case? The engine was refused to Pak and sold through China? And now directly .. As for the 35s.. It's just an opinion nothing concrete.. Chinese aviation Industry itself has excelled a lot.. Rivalling Russians (nowadays).. The only thing they lack seems to be the jet engines (which they ar developing).
 
The long negotiation on the Su-35 sale to China has been completed. We have signed a contract,” Sergey Chemezov, the head of the Russian state-owned high-tech giant Rostec, told Kommersant business daily.

Why you think it has taken so long for the contract to sign? You think years of hard work is going to go in the toilet and China hand over the fighters to Pakistan? lol

I'm sure they were also in place in the past ? When Chinese built SU-33s,Su-27/30 series and many other stuff ?

Remember the RD-93 case? The engine was refused to Pak and sold through China? And now directly .. As for the 35s.. It's just an opinion nothing concrete.. Chinese aviation Industry itself has excelled a lot.. Rivalling Russians (nowadays).. The only thing they lack seems to be the jet engines (which they ar developing).

The engines were approved by Russia it is and only can be given by Russia and nobody else, if they give the green light it will be but if they say no it will not happen (they are the manufacturer not China)
 
People seem to forget the additional/ unforeseen costs for the induction of aircraft. You can't just buy a fighter jet and press it into a war tomorrow. It takes years to introduce a pilot & maintenance crews to the jet, train the pilot & maintenance crews, set up a supply chain, overhauling. These take years and hundreds of billions to introduce.

Even the fuel requirement types are different from jet engine to jet engine.

The only reason Pakistan is going for the F-16s is because they're paying less than 40% of the purchase price. Has an established supply/ repair chain. Mastered the jet over the 40 years it had them.

SU-35 is out of the question, the Chinese equivalent is a better option.

J-10 offers no additional return over the F-16. And the improved JF-17 block 3s will probably reach comparable standards.
The JF-17B will itself allow for a greater payload capability.

J-20 is not for export. Only the J-31 is, which itself is years away from full production.

Best case scenario is investing in the JF-17's yearly production and capabilities, investing in either the Turkish TFX or Chinese J-31.

Interesting possible note. Deputize Pakistani fighter pilots to fly in the Chinese Air Force. Just like Pakistani Pilots participate in missions of the Gulf Arab nations, Pakistan pilots already carry out flights of Chinese J-11s, SU30MKKs, AWACS. Have some pilots participate in the J-11/16s with a dedicated maintaince crew to begin to learn twin engine.
 
Anyway when Russia sells the SU-35 to Pakistan I will say more until then I do not believe it goodbye I need my bed.
 
If you think Pakistan will use this opportunity to move away from its relationship with US, a relationship that has significantly damaged our country, you are dreaming.

Our politicians and generals have been married to the US and its currency since the birth of Pakistan and I don't see that changing anytime soon. We will whine and we will cry but we will go back to the US to beg for more aid and more deals. It almost feels like it's become part of our DNA now.
 
People seem to forget the additional/ unforeseen costs for the induction of aircraft. You can't just buy a fighter jet and press it into a war tomorrow. It takes years to introduce a pilot & maintenance crews to the jet, train the pilot & maintenance crews, set up a supply chain, overhauling. These take years and hundreds of billions to introduce.

Even the fuel requirement types are different from jet engine to jet engine.

The only reason Pakistan is going for the F-16s is because they're paying less than 40% of the purchase price. Has an established supply/ repair chain. Mastered the jet over the 40 years it had them.

SU-35 is out of the question, the Chinese equivalent is a better option.

J-10 offers no additional return over the F-16. And the improved JF-17 block 3s will probably reach comparable standards.
The JF-17B will itself allow for a greater payload capability.

J-20 is not for export. Only the J-31 is, which itself is years away from full production.

Best case scenario is investing in the JF-17's yearly production and capabilities, investing in either the Turkish TFX or Chinese J-31.

Interesting possible note. Deputize Pakistani fighter pilots to fly in the Chinese Air Force. Just like Pakistani Pilots participate in missions of the Gulf Arab nations, Pakistan pilots already carry out flights of Chinese J-11s, SU30MKKs, AWACS. Have some pilots participate in the J-11/16s with a dedicated maintaince crew to begin to learn twin engine.

Pak already has pilots flying PLAAF SU series ,... One pilot reached over 3000 hours a few years back.. And recently the PLAAF SU-30MKK/2 were in Pak -- Shaheen Series ex.
 
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan will acquire jets from elsewhere if the United States (US) does not arrange funding for the sale, Sartaj Aziz, the prime minister's adviser on foreign affairs, cautioned the US as both countries lock horns over the purchase of the fighter jets.

Pakistan had earlier reached an understanding with the US for buying eight F-16 planes. Under the deal, Pakistan was required to pay about $270m from its national funds. The US was supposed to provide the rest from its Foreign Military Financing (FMF) fund.

But at a congressional hearing, US lawmakers last Wednesday made it clear that they would not allow the Obama administration to use US funds for the deal.

Last Friday, a State Department official told Dawn that Congress had placed a hold on the deal, forbidding the administration from using US funds for enabling Pakistan to buy the planes.

And on Monday afternoon, the department confirmed that Pakistan will have to use its own funds if it wants the planes.

The latest announcement practically kills the deal as Pakistan may find it difficult to buy the planes at two and a half times more than the agreed price.

Aziz said Pakistan valued the F-16s for their effectiveness, but said that they could be replaced by JF-17 Thunder jets in its anti-terrorism campaign.

The adviser also expressed concern over India's growing military power and said if it isn't checked, Pakistan will be "forced to increase its strategic power" too.

"The international community should avoid steps which may disturb the strategic balance in South Asia", Aziz warned.

Aziz reiterated the government's resistance towards handing Dr Shakeel Afridi over to American authorities.

"We have rejected American pressure on Pakistan regarding Afridi, who helped the US trace Osama bin Laden. For the US he is a hero but for Pakistan he is a criminal," he stated.

Afridi's case is under review by a tribunal, and he is also suspected of links with terrorist organisations, Aziz added.

The adviser also confirmed that an Afghan Taliban delegation from Doha is in Islamabad for explanatory contacts and such contacts are maintained by all members of the Quadrilateral Coordination Group which consists of the US, China, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Last week, the Afghan Taliban's spokesperson in Doha formally confirmed that a delegation from their political office in Qatar was visiting Pakistan and promised “fruitful results”, but rejected the impression that the group was there to discuss participation in peace talks with Kabul.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1256000/pa...here-if-funding-not-arranged-aziz-cautions-us

==========================================

Edited by Moderator
Reason: To post updated version of the News from the same source

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan will acquire jets from elsewhere if the United States (US) does not arrange funding for a previously agreed upon F-16 fighter jet sale, Sartaj Aziz, the prime minister's adviser on foreign affairs, cautioned the US as both countries lock horns over the purchase of the jets.

"If funding is arranged, Pakistan will get the F-16s, otherwise we will opt for jets from some other place," Aziz said, without clarifying which jets he was referring to and where they would be bought from.

Aziz elaborated the US administration has given its consent for the sale of F-16s, and the only hurdle is finances.

The US gives Pakistan $265 million as part of foreign military assistance, in previous years it was $300 million. The amount received is split between the three branches of the armed forces. Pakistan Air Force's (PAF) share is $80 million, which they had allocated for the last three years to buy the jets, added Aziz.

"The funding we received was part of normal military funding received from US, and not specifically meant for the purchase of F-16s. The US has informed us that we can use the funds for purchase of other military equipment and items, but not F-16s."

Pakistan had earlier reached an understanding with the US for buying eight F-16 planes. Under the deal, Pakistan was required to pay about $270m from its national funds. The US was supposed to provide the rest from its Foreign Military Financing (FMF) fund.

But at a congressional hearing, US lawmakers last Wednesday made it clear that they would not allow the Obama administration to use US funds for the deal.

Last Friday, a State Department official told Dawn that Congress had placed a hold on the deal, forbidding the administration from using US funds for enabling Pakistan to buy the planes.

And on Monday afternoon, the department confirmed that Pakistan will have to use its own funds if it wants the planes.

The latest announcement practically kills the deal as Pakistan may find it difficult to buy the planes at two and a half times more than the agreed price.

Aziz said Pakistan valued the F-16s for their effectiveness, but said that they could be replaced by JF-17 Thunder jets in its anti-terrorism campaign.

The adviser also expressed concern over India's growing military power and said if it isn't checked, Pakistan will be "forced to increase its strategic power" too.

"The international community should avoid steps which may disturb the strategic balance in South Asia", Aziz warned.

Aziz reiterated the government's resistance towards handing Dr Shakeel Afridi over to American authorities.

"We have rejected American pressure on Pakistan regarding Afridi, who helped the US trace Osama bin Laden. For the US he is a hero but for Pakistan he is a criminal," he stated.

Afridi's case is under review by a tribunal, and he is also suspected of links with terrorist organisations, Aziz added.

The adviser also confirmed that an Afghan Taliban delegation from Doha is in Islamabad for explanatory contacts and such contacts are maintained by all members of the Quadrilateral Coordination Group which consists of the US, China, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Last week, the Afghan Taliban's spokesperson in Doha formally confirmed that a delegation from their political office in Qatar was visiting Pakistan and promised “fruitful results”, but rejected the impression that the group was there to discuss participation in peace talks with Kabul.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1256000/pa...here-if-funding-not-arranged-aziz-cautions-us
The same thing could have been said in nicer terms. Diplomacy is an art we need to learn

Like what capabilities? We wont get latest block anyway. Its logistics and spare parts delivery is unreliable. They can shut down your f16 in mid air. They already told you that you can't use them against india and they assured the same to Indians.
In block III Jf17, u r getting aesa. F16 don't have it, no maintenance issues with jf17, with f16 u may have to beg for spare parts from India if Lockheed martin shifts to India. Jf17 can carry out nuclear, ground, air attack, bvr capable, anti ship attack, fire cruise missile. Can u do it with your beloved block 52s. Production rate of jf17 can always be taken up to 50-100 a year. U can never get more than 8-16 f16s a year. 16 f16s vs 50 jf17, jf17 will win. No platform is worth sh1t if its spare part supply line and freedom of use can't be ensured.

Remember what Russian tanks did to formidable tiger tanks of Germany in ww2. Why? Russian tanks, simple in design kept on rolling out of factories at a faster rate as compared to complex tiger tanks of Germany.

Work on jf17, improve it, get aesa radar, get a Damocles or aeslan Turkish targeting pod and JF17 in large numbers will give Indian fighters run for their money.
JF 17 is not answer to everything
 
Pak already has pilots flying PLAAF SU series ,... One pilot reached over 3000 hours a few years back.. And recently the PLAAF SU-30MKK/2 were in Pak -- Shaheen Series ex.

My suggestion was to dedicate an entire squadron and it's support requirements to the Chinese Air-Force, rather than just a small number pilots, countable on a single hand, separated to various squadrons. Exercises are nice and all but offer just a few days worth of flight sorties and limited number of tactical plans each force undertakes in different scenarios.

The value Pakistani pilots achieve from manning 1/2 of a squadrons in the Gulf States offers little other than more flight hours they would receive in the PAF. But it's questionable the insight they have on the F-15s, Eurofighters, and Tornadoes. The Army Aviation also has pilots flying around helicopters.

The Chinese are undergoing a massive training and re-orientated command structure. The PAF has a great amount of insight on training suggestions. The opportunity costs will be greater as the Chinese are already experimenting with stealth.

PAF already flies around the Chinese avionics AWACs, and as the industry in China grows, Chinese avionics will provide a cheaper alternative in the smallest unit of the air-force, the individual jet. Get a head-start.
 
Pakistan have to pay for F-16
@Gamer-X
I assume you run YouTube channels. Try posting reply to vile Indian propaganda. they thought we will cry rivers and get demoralized due to their "Successful lobbying" but it only rallied the nation together.
 
They would loose much more money with the Indian backlash.
India is Russia depended, and Russians are well aware of it. Even tho they are getting cozy with US, Indians have learned the lesson from Pakistan mistakes. Western countries use these toys for political leverage and Blackmail and Indian is having none of this BS.

would also like to respond to the idle talk and pure invention of the media by reiterating that Russia has not discussed and does not have any plans to sell Su-35 aircraft to Pakistan.
Russians are the one who disclose this news of selling SU-35 to the public first. Other than Russian ambassador to India ( most probably lied for Indian consumption), everybody know Russia and Pakistan are in talk for SU-35. After all Russia sold it to China and is also selling other hardware to Pakistan.

Lets not kid our selves, J 20 is like US's F-22 not for sale to even its closest allies.
China is not US, different region, different Geopolitical requirements. F-22 is not for sale cuz no US ally need it for their defence in the current scenario. The day first combat ready Pak-FA flew close to NATO borders or is sold to an Arab country, you bet F-22 will be on sale.
 
The J-20 would have the heavyweight payload and long-range endurance of the Su-35.

Very correct, but I think J 31 will be a better option, they are looking for a partner, actually need one badly. Which if things work out may result in a work share and technology transfer agreement, will be a sixer out of stadium. The issue I think will be costs, hopefully things works out, I do not know what is holding this project back.

Jet looks good, have high wing loading but that can be worked out with a modified wing, I think they showed a modified winged model at probably Zhuhai air show. lerx can be further enhanced with protruding edges like on F-22. Also will use same engines like JF-17, a good thing in many ways.

But one thing I think is that it can be available in range of any other options, their timeline for flying production model was 2019. Even if we go for Su-35, with all the swords and indian daggers of sanctions and problems hanging, it will still take 3-4 years to get inducted as well.

But even two squadron by 2021 will completely change the picture, according to AVIC it is stealthy in Ku and above. It will be a hell of a BVR range superiority fighter with nothing to compare against it in our field of operations. With open codes, ability to integrate MAR-1 and H2/H4 kind of PGMs, a tremendous SEAD/DEAD and multi-role with no equal in our region.
 
China is not US, different region, different Geopolitical requirements. F-22 is not for sale cuz no US ally need it for their defence in the current scenario. The day first combat ready Pak-FA flew close to NATO borders or is sold to an Arab country, you bet F-22 will be on sale.

Pak-Fa might be limited to India only, as for J 20 I still think it wont be released to Pakistan because Pakistan is never clear on the US relationship and the amount of access it can get to Pakistan's infrastructure be it permitted or not. And china wont risk exposing their latest and greatest. As for PAK-FA and F-22 much more than actual technology, the psychology plays an important role and they are not going to give it to some random air force to shame their name. If any three of these aircraft shoots the other down, its going to be a very heavy dent on their reputation which neither country can afford to bear hence the potential buyers can forget about it until one or two next generations are in production.

P.S. you can relate this to the fact that the fly-by of recent Russian jets near US ships were su-24 or su-27 both very old platforms. Why not Su-35? When they do mean business, they flew su-35 as escorts for their bombers after one su-25 was shot down.
 
Last edited:
@Gamer-X
I assume you run YouTube channels. Try posting reply to vile Indian propaganda. they thought we will cry rivers and get demoralized due to their "Successful lobbying" but it only rallied the nation together.
What??
 

Back
Top Bottom