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IAF modernisation plan: Saab offers Gripen fighter jets under 'Make in India' with full control

well bro at last this deal now looks set to be signed but its very embarrassing on the part of past n present indian govts that after 2012 feb it will be 5 yrs when deal will be signed that too for only 36 fighters. in 5 years they can not clinch the deal as numbers of fighter n pricing along with offset clause were the main factors to be decided

I am pretty sure the 36 is just a first batch,because the needs are urgent. Then there will be more negociations about their production in India. 36 is a ridiculous number for an air force like India.
If only 36 will be bought,they will only (IMO as i said many times),serve in special squadrons,most likely the nuclear forces. (Like our Gascogne and Lafayette squadrons.)
But being from special squadrons doesn't mean they couldn't participate in airstrikes during a war or air superiority...
The aircrafts that are in these squadron participated many times in the airstrikes in the Sahel and Iraq/Syria. :D

What do you think buddy ? @Abingdonboy
 
We hope that the deal will be signed during India's republic day where Hollande will be the chief guest.

@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @sarjenprabhu @The Huskar @Koovie @Nilgiri @Alphacharlie
Fingers crossed my friend. It would be highly embarrasing (for both sides) for the Honourable President to make his way to India to go home empty handed. Mr Modi set the precedent with Obama that the Cheif guests receive some form of historic deal so..... ;)

well bro at last this deal now looks set to be signed but its very embarrassing on the part of past n present indian govts that after 2012 feb it will be 5 yrs when deal will be signed that too for only 36 fighters. in 5 years they can not clinch the deal as numbers of fighter n pricing along with offset clause were the main factors to be decided
You have to seperate the two deals- the MMRCA was incredibly complex and under the past DM they had reached an impasse.

In April 2015 the PM of India intiated an entirely seperate govt-govt process to procure 36 Rafales and put the MMRCA in the bin as such if/when the deal for 36 Rafales is signed in January 2016 one has to say the GoI/MoD/CNC has done a good job of signing a relatively large deal (it will still cost many billions don't forget) in the space of 9 months.

Of course this nuanced view will be ignored by 99% of onlookers who will simply see the headline "took 5-6 years to sign a smaller deal" but this is inaccurate to say the least. @PARIKRAMA


Anyway, history will likely forget the horrendous pain the process of getting the Rafale in service has been. When there are >120-180 Rafales in service offering awesome performance to the IAF these troubles will likely not register I'm sure. ;)

@FrenchPilot
 
You have to seperate the two deals- the MMRCA was incredibly complex and under the past DM they had reached an impasse.

In April 2015 the PM of India intiated an entirely seperate govt-govt process to procure 36 Rafales and put the MMRCA in the bin as such if/when the deal for 36 Rafales is signed in January 2016 one has to say the GoI/MoD/CNC has done a good job of signing a relatively large deal (it will still cost many billions don't forget) in the space of 9 months.

Of course this nuanced view will be ignored by 99% of onlookers who will simply see the headline "took 5-6 years to sign a smaller deal" but this is inaccurate to say the least.


Anyway, history will likely forget the horrendous pain the process of getting the Rafale in service has been. When there are >120-180 Rafales in service offering awesome performance to the IAF these troubles will likely not register I'm sure. ;)

@FrenchPilot


well yes this delaye can be sweetly forgotten if the deal extends beyond 36 and no other fighter is inducted now except rafales in large numbers
 
You have to seperate the two deals- the MMRCA was incredibly complex and under the past DM they had reached an impasse.

In April 2015 the PM of India intiated an entirely seperate govt-govt process to procure 36 Rafales and put the MMRCA in the bin as such if/when the deal for 36 Rafales is signed in January 2016 one has to say the GoI/MoD/CNC has done a good job of signing a relatively large deal (it will still cost many billions don't forget) in the space of 9 months.

Of course this nuanced view will be ignored by 99% of onlookers who will simply see the headline "took 5-6 years to sign a smaller deal" but this is inaccurate to say the least. @PARIKRAMA


Anyway, history will likely forget the horrendous pain the process of getting the Rafale in service has been. When there are >120-180 Rafales in service offering awesome performance to the IAF these troubles will likely not register I'm sure. ;)

@FrenchPilot
so what is the flyaway cost of french built Rafale and what is the potential flyaway cost of Rafale made in india under MII ?
 
I am pretty sure the 36 is just a first batch,because the needs are urgent. Then there will be more negociations about their production in India. 36 is a ridiculous number for an air force like India.
If only 36 will be bought,they will only (IMO as i said many times),serve in special squadrons,most likely the nuclear forces. (Like our Gascogne and Lafayette squadrons.)
But being from special squadrons doesn't mean they couldn't participate in airstrikes during a war or air superiority...
The aircrafts that are in these squadron participated many times in the airstrikes in the Sahel and Iraq/Syria. :D

What do you think buddy ? @Abingdonboy
well yes this delay can be sweetly forgotten if the deal extends beyond 36 and no other fighter(this possibilityis remote though) is inducted now except rafales in large numbers

Source: IAF modernisation plan: Saab offers Gripen fighter jets under 'Make in India' with full control | Page 2
 
NEW DELHI: Swedish defence major Saab has offered to manufacture its fifth generation Gripen fighter aircraft here with technology transfer to India, in a renewed bid for a pie in the multi-billion dollar worth IAF modernisation plan.

Saab, which had lost out in the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft tender in 2011 which was won by French firm Dassault Aviation, anticipates that the Indian Air Force (IAF) will need more the 36 Rafale fighter jets that India is buying from France to beef up its depleting fleet.

Saab is not only offering to set up a base here but also help in the development of aerospace capability for the next 100 years and partner in developing the next version of indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas and the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), being developed and designed by Aeronautical Development Agency.

Ulf Nilsson, head of Saab's aeronautics division, told PTI that the company is already doing its homework and identifying partners for collaboration.

Nilsson said the offer of technology transfer would be real as they are offering India 'full system control' and 'full software control'.

Saab (India) chief Jan Widerstrom said the company is also ready to stick by New Delhi's negative list, as was made clear by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar in an interview to PTI last month, when it comes to exporting fighter aircraft from India to other countries.

"We have almost an identical system back in Sweden when it comes to defence exports. It is decided by the government and we too can't export to specific countries which is almost the same as that of India," Widerstrom said.

Saab CEO Hakan Buskhe said the company will offer any help to the indigenous light combat aircraft project.

The Indian Air Force had in October said it would need at least six additional squadrons comprising 108 Rafale fighter jets or similar jets to shore up its capabilities.

With the government cancelling the multi-billion tender for 126 MMRCA, there is renewed hope in the aviation industry that India may go in for fresh bids to fill up the gaps.

Besides Saab, US' Lockheed Martin and the France's Dassault Aviation have offered their jets in line with the government's push for 'Make in India'.

IAF modernisation plan: Saab offers Gripen fighter jets under 'Make in India' with full control - The Economic Times

If at all we would take SAAB help in aircraft industry India should go for vertical take off and landing version for AMCA or LCA or even completely new fighters
 
I am pretty sure the 36 is just a first batch,because the needs are urgent. Then there will be more negociations about their production in India. 36 is a ridiculous number for an air force like India.
If only 36 will be bought,they will only (IMO as i said many times),serve in special squadrons,most likely the nuclear forces. (Like our Gascogne and Lafayette squadrons.)
But being from special squadrons doesn't mean they couldn't participate in airstrikes during a war or air superiority...
The aircrafts that are in these squadron participated many times in the airstrikes in the Sahel and Iraq/Syria. :D

What do you think buddy ? @Abingdonboy
36 figures is an absurd figure for 1) the IAF and 2) a fighter like the Rafale.

1) The IAF is a HUGE airforce and growing every year, operating across a vast nation in an ever increasing number of bases. It simply would not be economical to induct such a feeble number (36). This may be enough for the Egyptians or Qatar but not nearly enough for the IAF. 36 isn't even enough for 2 SQNs forth of birds- the IAF's SQNs usually are made up of 18-20 jets but they also ensure they have war reserves so the 36 figure does not remotely fit with their practices.

2) Your point about that these 36 Rafales are being procured for special SQNs such as nuclear strike has been the assumption of a few as the Strategic Forces Command (SFC) have stated they require a similar number (40) for airborne nuclear delivery platforms. However, it makes little (to no) sense to induct a fighter as capable and expensive as the Rafale for this role. Given its much celebrarted Multi-role/"Omni" role capabilties the majority of the Rafale's utility would be lost in such a limited mission profile to the point it doesn't make sense to induct them for such a limited role.

+ The fact is the SFC may say they need these birds but who needs them more- the SFC who is seeing their capabilties expand manifold with the induction of the AGNI V, devlopment of the K series SLBMs and their mother vessel (Arihant class SSBNs) or the mainstream IAF who are STILL still flying the ancient MiG-21s and 27s and seeing their SQN strength put at risk?



As you (and the PM of India) have said, 36 is to meet the immediate needs of the IAF. Talks are on for many many more...

@FrenchPilot I have seen what you posted the other day about forgetting the IAF was even negotiating for Rafales but let me give you some historical context to maybe relight your interest in this deal. When India first signed up for the Su-30MKI they only signed a contract for some 40 MKIs to begin with, fast foreward around 15 years later and the IAF has 272 MKIs on order and India's economy is FAR greater today then it was in the past. The idea that the IAF will only get 36 Rafales makes me laugh. Any one using even a modicum of common sense will see how foolish this idea is really....

well yes this delaye can be sweetly forgotten if the deal extends beyond 36 and no other fighter is inducted now except rafales in large numbers
As you have said- the chances of another new fighter serving alongside the Rafale is remote.In fact, it is so laughable that it can be ruled out outright.

so what is the flyaway cost of french built Rafale and what is the potential flyaway cost of Rafale made in india under MII ?
Impossible to speculate on costs right now but I am prepared to be pleasantly surprised given this is a govt-govt deal and there seems to be a far more strategic angle to this deal now that was not present before. I think the French side are fuly prepared to offer "sweetners" for this.


As for MII, I would say- watch this space :D

@PARIKRAMA is probably more informed of this element than I am.

If at all we would take SAAB help in aircraft industry India should go for vertical take off and landing version for AMCA or LCA or even completely new fighters
V/STOL offers little utility to India.

Well you should hear the full "truth" of the Gospel that some folks are unleashing under MII

Boeing says
+ We can have F18s under MII in India itself
+ Fact: Pls order 200 F18s for doing that... (with that money let me develop a new gen fighter for USAF/USN)

GE says
+ We will make Ge engines (404/414 uprated) in India itself
+ Fact: GE engine assembled in Chikan Plant India (TOT/Hot engine tech etc pending approval from US Senate)

Saab says
+ We will offer Gripen under MII
+ We will help in LCA program
+ Fact 1: Gripen uses GE derived engines so Engine part they cant help
+ Fact 2: Gripen is a direct competitor to our own LCA project..
+ Fact 3: LCA will cost 1/3rd price of Gripen and 100 odd orders to Gripen/Gripen NG means a bullet shot in the heart of LCA program (the end game over for LCA)


We are waiting for Eurojets to add their comments too... If they wish to add of course...
And the end result? The Indian side can pretend to consider these offeres seriosuly (as the DM has been doing) and the French side can pretend to take them seriously and the two come to an attractive deal for the Rafale sale to India.

If Boeing is offereing to build F-18s in India you had better know the Dassualt is offering the same, the fact that they have not publicaly stated as much makes it all the more intriguing ;) ;)


The fact is one of the most decisive PMs in India's history who enjoys the most power (thanks to a clear majority in the lower house of Parliament) has personally crafted this Rafale deal AND has personally promoted his pet project- Make in India. To think that he would not be working to get the Rafale MII is just...... :crazy:
 
in a renewed bid for a pie in the multi-billion dollar worth IAF modernisation plan.


which pie swedes are looking for in this deal when even 36 rafales are not even finalized :lol:, IAF tantrums in LCA and govt approach in MRCA has made new fighter jets acquisitions a big joke


I think the main reason why MMRCA took so long is because Indian government ,since 2013 to early this year, had empty treasury. This is probably the reason why not many military systems were brought by India in recent past.
 
I think the main reason why MMRCA took so long is because Indian government ,since 2013 to early this year, had empty treasury. This is probably the reason why not many military systems were brought by India in recent past.
I don't buy it, thoughout this period the MoD was still returning unspent funds to the Fin Min year after year. It was NEVER a question of funds, the deal just wasn't in a postion to be signed, it was increidbly complex and the previous DM had refused to think out of the box. It is no coincidence that under India's longest serving DM defence procurements across the board came to a halt- the financial "crunch" is an all too convenient excuse for him and absolves him of any liability. It wasn't long ago and I can remember the issues very vivdly, the MMRCA was simply another casualty of that b@stard's signature "keep myself clean at all costs" policy along with the S-70B, RSH, AW-101, A330 MRTT etc etc. I've said it before and I'll say it again- he has blood on his hands.
 
I think the main reason why MMRCA took so long is because Indian government ,since 2013 to early this year, had empty treasury. This is probably the reason why not many military systems were brought by India in recent past.
Partially yes bcz P Chidambarm to maintain the deficit within particular % did push all expenses to next next next fiscal especially when UPA2 in last 2 years of their term knew very well that they may not get UPA 3 for the time being. The impetus on expenses preservation implied a cycle with negligible investment infusion. That is why we wont see magical number changing for an approximate duration in our economy but will require careful but considerable infusion to offset the loss of time and almost grinding halt to the engine,,,

Unfortunately Def deals where signing payment is 10-15% and tranche payment on delivery means a staggered commitment over many years. We erred in judgement when we should have got 100 Mirages in 2005 timezone. We erred again when we made MMRCA tender so complex that for years we just made a mockery of it going round round. The tech evaluation was available i guess by 2009-2010 types or max 2011. So practically a solution was possible in last 2-3 years within UPA2 timeline. But then swanky clean AKA and FM PC wanted to "gift" the new incoming GOI a parting gift of headaches and wanted to waste time in order for them to make head and tail and UPA folks crying hoarse that the new GOI is useless and we were better...

All this and our motherland suffered.
 
36 figures is an absurd figure for 1) the IAF and 2) a fighter like the Rafale.

1) The IAF is a HUGE airforce and growing every year, operating across a vast nation in an ever increasing number of bases. It simply would not be economical to induct such a feeble number (36). This may be enough for the Egyptians or Qatar but not nearly enough for the IAF. 36 isn't even enough for 2 SQNs forth of birds- the IAF's SQNs usually are made up of 18-20 jets but they also ensure they have war reserves so the 36 figure does not remotely fit with their practices.

2) Your point about that these 36 Rafales are being procured for special SQNs such as nuclear strike has been the assumption of a few as the Strategic Forces Command (SFC) have stated they require a similar number (40) for airborne nuclear delivery platforms. However, it makes little (to no) sense to induct a fighter as capable and expensive as the Rafale for this role. Given its much celebrarted Multi-role/"Omni" role capabilties the majority of the Rafale's utility would be lost in such a limited mission profile to the point it doesn't make sense to induct them for such a limited role.

+ The fact is the SFC may say they need these birds but who needs them more- the SFC who is seeing their capabilties expand manifold with the induction of the AGNI V, devlopment of the K series SLBMs and their mother vessel (Arihant class SSBNs) or the mainstream IAF who are STILL still flying the ancient MiG-21s and 27s and seeing their SQN strength put at risk?



As you (and the PM of India) have said, 36 is to meet the immediate needs of the IAF. Talks are on for many many more...

@FrenchPilot I have seen what you posted the other day about forgetting the IAF was even negotiating for Rafales but let me give you some historical context to maybe relight your interest in this deal. When India first signed up for the Su-30MKI they only signed a contract for some 40 MKIs to begin with, fast foreward around 15 years later and the IAF has 272 MKIs on order and India's economy is FAR greater today then it was in the past. The idea that the IAF will only get 36 Rafales makes me laugh. Any one using even a modicum of common sense will see how foolish this idea is really....


As you have said- the chances of another new fighter serving alongside the Rafale is remote.In fact, it is so laughable that it can be ruled out outright.


Impossible to speculate on costs right now but I am prepared to be pleasantly surprised given this is a govt-govt deal and there seems to be a far more strategic angle to this deal now that was not present before. I think the French side are fuly prepared to offer "sweetners" for this.


As for MII, I would say- watch this space :D

@PARIKRAMA is probably more informed of this element than I am.


V/STOL offers little utility to India.


And the end result? The Indian side can pretend to consider these offeres seriosuly (as the DM has been doing) and the French side can pretend to take them seriously and the two come to an attractive deal for the Rafale sale to India.

If Boeing is offereing to build F-18s in India you had better know the Dassualt is offering the same, the fact that they have not publicaly stated as much makes it all the more intriguing ;) ;)


The fact is one of the most decisive PMs in India's history who enjoys the most power (thanks to a clear majority in the lower house of Parliament) has personally crafted this Rafale deal AND has personally promoted his pet project- Make in India. To think that he would not be working to get the Rafale MII is just...... :crazy:
You urself mentioned that IAF operating I a vast environment. :) We could use it when our runways are bombed or in no run way environment especially from our vast majority of islands. Making them like permanent UN sink able Aircraft carriers. It's just my wishlist for our armed forces :D
 
But then swanky clean AKA and FM PC wanted to "gift" the new incoming GOI a parting gift of headaches and wanted to waste time in order for them to make head and tail and UPA folks crying hoarse that the new GOI is useless and we were better...
I wouldn't have beleived this prior to May 2014 but Parrikhar's comments on the state of defence "we are in a mess" coupled with the fact that within 10 months of being in power the NDA scrapped the MMRCA procurement process in its entirity is certainly drawing me in that direction.

Isn't it curious that despite the MMRCA process being scrapped the current GoI has continued with the Rafale and not issued a seperate RFI/RFP or given up entirely and simply gone for a govt-govt deal from the US/Russia etc? This leads be to beleive that the IAF's selection process was 100% sound and the Rafale is by far the best plane on offer but between the down select in 2011 and point when the UPA's electoral loss in 2014 saw the deal still in no-man's land something went wrong and the previous DM was either unable or unwilling to address it.

You urself mentioned that IAF operating I a vast environment. :) We could use it when our runways are bombed or in no run way environment especially from our vast majority of islands. Making them like permanent UN sink able Aircraft carriers. It's just my wishlist for our armed forces :D
Which islands exactly are you talking about?
 
The fact is one of the most decisive PMs in India's history who enjoys the most power (thanks to a clear majority in the lower house of Parliament) has personally crafted this Rafale deal AND has personally promoted his pet project- Make in India. To think that he would not be working to get the Rafale MII is just...... :crazy:

I believe our PM for trolling everyone should have ordered 56 rafales instead of 36.. that way the claim of his pet project would have got more credibility...

A good question now to Wonder -
Sinzo Abe went to Benaras and did Ganga Aarti? His bag of goodies included $12 Bn HST - Bullet train project
Hollande should do something even more "pious" so that his bag includes a bigger value ... ;););)
 

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