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All religion’s followers have equal rights in Pakistan: PM Nawaz

@haviZsultan you are not answering my question. You said beef ban hurts your religious feelings but it seems houbara bustard ban does not, even though both are permitted to you.

So it seems your religious feelings revolve around hurting others religious feelings only. That's truly deplorable.
That is a canard, a poor comparison and a completely different situation all in one. Houbara bustard is a species that is under threat of going extinct. I cannot even begin to explain why your comparison is flawed. People should be free to do what they want. Hindus themselves sell their cows to muslims knowing they will be cut up and eaten. Somehow these hindus are safe from shiv sena and gang.
 
That is a canard, a poor comparison and a completely different situation all in one. Houbara bustard is a species that is under threat of going extinct. I cannot even begin to explain why your comparison is flawed. People should be free to do what they want. Hindus themselves sell their cows to muslims knowing they will be cut up and eaten. Somehow these hindus are safe from shiv sena and gang.

I am talking about govt ban not illegal vigilantism. Stop presenting strawmen.

So you say houbara ban for conservation is OK but beef ban for not hurting Hindu religious sentiment (leading to law and order issues) hurts your religious sentiments (your words). What gives? That protecting birds is OK but if Hindu religious sentiments are protected (just like how we protect Muslim religious sentiments by banning books like Lajja, satanic verses etc) then your religious sentiments are hurt? WTF???

So your religious sentiments are about deliberately hurting others religious sentiments, about making and seeking enemies and creating trouble? As I said, that's truly deplorable.

@Syama Ayas the much abused and misunderstood "root cause" - supremacism and making and seeking enemies. Right here. From their most "secular" poster. Imagine the rest.
 
I respect your views friend. But we need to decide on a system to govern Pakistan that is both acceptable to the muslim majority and not discriminatory to the minorities. I am very patriotic but I don't let my patriotism slide into something where I cannot feel the pain of minorities in Pakistan.

But some of your points I agree with. Terrorism remains a common threat and the terrorist when conducting one of his bombings does not ask whether we are muslim or a believer of something else. So this is a very common threat which shouldn't divide us. I tried to tell shia nationalist Abdul Nishapuri the same thing a long time ago.

Otherwise you might know my views on secularism and my belief that having a fund for hajj of poor people is okay only when we have an equal fund for zikris or hindus for yatra or other minority groups religious needs. I however do not want to impose anything on anybody. All I want is Pakistanis to think more positively about secularism.

You have expressed your views well. The blasphemy law should atleast be amended if not scrapped. Furthermore if it exists it should also appeal to the disparaging of the religion of hindus and christians, otherwise its pretty unfair. Perhaps illiteracy and lack of development is the reason for a lot of problems in our society. If we improve our literacy we might deal with a lot of our problems.

My friend, you have spoke your heart which is a good thing and we shall do the same more often and the same needs to be applied as overall in country but with a careful thought that we may never ever mock, hurt or insult anyone. This is only problem that currently we are facing from every point of view that holds resolution for almost every issue we are facing like from electing the right people to understand the religion, from building of society to respect others and all. Once, the rate of literacy started to go upward, we will see an environment with peace and growth/harmony.

As you mentioned your belief regarding Secularism then I have to say only one thing, you can have your thought without any pressure from others as for example, I cannot impose my belief upon you as you expect but on the same, demanding the such as for majority in shape of law is like imposing itself. As I said we only know the Islam given by ALLAH through Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.W) that includes each & every set of system that we need for our life like speaking oneself, taking care of others, the way of business, respect, importance of education, the way of Governance etc like everything and then defined in details through Hadith so there is nothing else but Islam for a Muslim. However, none thought about Secularism like you feel as negative but imposing the same or wanted to implement the same on others who do not like it, can result in provoking or hurting hence, strong opposition.

Like we want .X.Y.Z be thought in positive manner but we cannot expect 100% outcome as the same is not the part of Islam. How Christianity sees Secularism, can also be considered for a reading so mere Secularism is not our concern at all but in other religions as well. While reading Islam, you will find many things that you see in Secularism, then Christians too, same goes to many other religions that people practice hence, it was called completed. All I am saying that there is no other Islam but only One though the rest like radical, liberal Muslims etc are nothing but names of different propagation that are not new as we have been warned in Quran-e-Pak and Ahadith as well.

You pointed out for fund of Hajj as it is for Muslims indeed but you may read about Sikh Yatris coming to Pakistan and how much Government of Pakistan spent for them. Also, the funds for Hindu Temples etc that I am sure, Ministers of Minorities do have such support from Government. Also, keep in mind that Constitution of Pakistan is not Islamic Law or Shariah even Muslims are in majority but few subjects of constitution are defined under Islamic Law so problem is not with Islamic Law here at all and if there is something in constitution to be amended, public leaders are voted by the people to do so but demand of Constitution on personal opinion or wish cannot be done.

The constitution made by Big Minds does hold credibility that they read and viewed each & every aspect of society while coming with the same but still, as it is a man-made thing, there may be a room for rectification or correction but the same will only be done as found credible/genuine but applying something contrary to the Islam, will be harmful/against majority here. Therefore, rights of minorities are safe and they fall under the same constitution as other Pakistanis even are Safe in Islamic Law that defined Blasphemy Law as well. There is no discrimination of minorities but everything is being defined with a limit due to circumstances of the land. Only a propaganda/media warfare is ill mentioning the things deliberately as the part of a game that very few will understand and we will counter the same with everything we got that are making the fuss out of nothing just to weak us internally. If minorities have issues related to government in respect of such threats, we would have witnessed a lot in media as well as the screams of libidos and blaming agents.

Ideas are always beneficial for us but where the one wants to impose his/her personal liking or disliking contrary to the law of land or with incorrect methods, the problem starts which is as same as standing against the state.

Hope that I have not hurt anyone but been helpful in this subject.

Regards,
 
I am talking about govt ban not illegal vigilantism. Stop presenting strawmen.

So you say houbara ban for conservation is OK but beef ban for not hurting Hindu religious sentiment (leading to law and order issues) hurts your religious sentiments (your words). What gives? That protecting birds is OK but if Hindu religious sentiments are protected (just like how we protect Muslim religious sentiments by banning books like Lajja, satanic verses etc) then your religious sentiments are hurt? WTF???

So your religious sentiments are about deliberately hurting others religious sentiments, about making and seeking enemies and creating trouble? As I said, that's truly deplorable.

@Syama Ayas the much abused and misunderstood "root cause" - supremacism and making and seeking enemies. Right here. From their most "secular" poster. Imagine the rest.
Then why not ban drinking for muslims and smoking for sikhs. Go all the way. Why should the law benefit only one select religion? As I said your position is morally flawed. Anyone can argue their religious sentiments are being hurt and want their religious laws to be imposed. In a secular country beef shouldn't be banned. It is logical that Pakistan would have issues like the blasphemy law when it is a theocratic state but claiming you are secular and advocating beef ban is completely wrong and beneficial to only a select group of hindus, not even all hindus including madrasis who openly eat beef.
 
Then why not ban drinking for muslims and smoking for sikhs. Go all the way. Why should the law benefit only one select religion? As I said your position is morally flawed. Anyone can argue their religious sentiments are being hurt and want their religious laws to be imposed. In a secular country beef shouldn't be banned. It is logical that Pakistan would have issues like the blasphemy law when it is a theocratic state but claiming you are secular and advocating beef ban is completely wrong and beneficial to only a select group of hindus, not even all hindus including madrasis who openly eat beef.

All religious hurt feelings non sense is the same. But govt follows some basic sense in listening to such grievances.

It is forbidden for Muslims to drink alcohol, and smoking to Sikhs. But killing cows is a problem irrespective of who did it. Same as your religious figures. Even if a Hindu wants to read or sell Satanic verses it is not allowed by Indian laws. Why? Because respecting your Prophet is an expectation of EVERYONE not just Muslims. Same with cows. I TRULY don't understand your logic. Unless the logic is "Muslims have right to hurt others but not others to hurt Muslims" - in other words supremacism.

Having said I oppose beef ban and ban on Satanic verses. People should grow up and govt should stay away from pandering to religious sentiments.
 
All religious hurt feelings non sense is the same. But govt follows some basic sense in listening to such grievances.

It is forbidden for Muslims to drink alcohol, and smoking to Sikhs. But killing cows is a problem irrespective of who did it. Same as your religious figures. Even if a Hindu wants to read or sell Satanic verses it is not allowed by Indian laws. Why? Because respecting your Prophet is an expectation of EVERYONE not just Muslims. Same with cows. I TRULY don't understand your logic. Unless the logic is "Muslims have right to hurt others but not others to hurt Muslims" - in other words supremacism.

Having said I oppose beef ban and ban on Satanic verses. People should grow up and govt should stay away from pandering to religious sentiments.
Based on what you say Hindus are so weak internally and it is a duty for hindus to stop cow slaughter everywhere. Why not stop it in US, UK, Pakistan, Nepal or other countries where there are hindu populations? As I said you and your logic is the equivalent of any muslim mullah's in our country. Anyone can argue something hurts their sentiments and ask for it to be banned. This way everything in the world will be banned in a society.
 
Based on what you say Hindus are so weak internally and it is a duty for hindus to stop cow slaughter everywhere. Why not stop it in US, UK, Pakistan, Nepal or other countries where there are hindu populations? As I said you and your logic is the equivalent of any muslim mullah's in our country. Anyone can argue something hurts their sentiments and ask for it to be banned. This way everything in the world will be banned in a society.

The same reason you can not ban Satanic Verses in the west. We can only make laws in our own countries.

We can ban Satanic Verses in India and we did (before pakistan), similarly beef ban in some states.

There is no mullah argument here. In fact I oppose the ban on Satanic verses and on beef both.

I just reject this claim that protecting Hindu religious feelings = hurting Muslim religious feelings.

YOU made that weird claim. Makes no sense what so ever. Betrays a deep victimhood complex.
 
A brazen lie.

A non-Muslim is debarred from becoming the President, Prime Minister of Pakistan by law.

It is a legal crime to leave Islam in Pakistan, but leaving any other religion is not a crime.

Many other such examples abound.

Non-Muslims are second class citizens in Pakistan.

Try to understand such issues with brief read and search rather than posting on obsession.

First point, Yes, it is as per Constitution of Islamic Republic of Pakistan. Muslims are in majority and Islam is the major religion in Country.

Second point, read Islam if you want to understand, as the same is called Apostasy so rather than posting for mere provocation and insulting.

Third point, again a blame and grudge feeling but no substance.

Forth point, your own words as "A brazen lie" as all non-Muslims are called as minority and Islam does not permit type of class, caste etc at all so keep it to India or where it belongs.

Try to be productive and apply the method of discussion under the view of quality and learning while keeping aside personal emotions or liking. Such provocations are not proving anything about Islam and Pakistan but you are merely baiting for insults in return.
 
The same reason you can not ban Satanic Verses in the west. We can only make laws in our own countries.

We can ban Satanic Verses in India and we did (before pakistan), similarly beef ban in some states.

There is no mullah argument here. In fact I oppose the ban on Satanic verses and on beef both.

I just reject this claim that protecting Hindu religious feelings = hurting Muslim religious feelings.

YOU made that weird claim. Makes no sense what so ever. Betrays a deep victimhood complex.
This is outright hypocracy. When hindus can live in US or UK where beef is widely sold ad consumed why can they not live in their own country free of religious dogma. Also it is challenged whether all hindus think beef consumption is not allowed. When you can't come to an agreement over whether it is allowed or not why impose such a ban.

As I have said this is India's own sweetly overlaid blasphemy law. We have such laws in the open and India too has detrimental laws to freedom in its own. Despite beef ban India is one of the largest exporters of cows, knowing they will be slaughtered in foreign countries. Hindus know the cow will be slaughtered outside, yet still they sell it.

This is about simple tolerance and equality. If you don't promote it in your land don't dictate to us how Pakistan should be run. At least we are fighting against chauvinism. You guys voted for a tyrant named Modi responsible for murder. Even if you deny he is a murderer of muslims his being even blamed for a massacre should be reason to give him a wide berth from politics.

Our family felt we were victims for genuine reasons and we can see the reasons in Indian posts.
 
This is outright hypocracy. When hindus can live in US or UK where beef is widely sold ad consumed why can they not live in their own country free of religious dogma. Also it is challenged whether all hindus think beef consumption is not allowed. When you can't come to an agreement over whether it is allowed or not why impose such a ban.

As I have said this is India's own sweetly overlaid blasphemy law. We have such laws in the open and India too has detrimental laws to freedom in its own. Despite beef ban India is one of the largest exporters of cows, knowing they will be slaughtered in foreign countries. Hindus know the cow will be slaughtered outside, yet still they sell it.

This is about simple tolerance and equality. If you don't promote it in your land don't dictate to us how Pakistan should be run. At least we are fighting against chauvinism. You guys voted for a tyrant named Modi responsible for murder. Even if you deny he is a murderer of muslims his being even blamed for a massacre should be reason to give him a wide berth from politics.

Our family felt we were victims for genuine reasons and we can see the reasons in Indian posts.

Hypicrisy?

Far more Muslims live in western countries where Satanic verses is sold and they can't live in their own countries without banning it.

The only hypocrite here is YOU. Because a hypocrite is one who holds different people to different standards. That is YOU. You want Hindus to allow beef (I agree with u) but u don't want Muslims to allow Satanic Verses sale (I want them to - also called ethical consistency).

By textbook definition you are the hypocrite here with deep deep victimhood complexes over compensated by a supremacism bend.

Having said that, I realised your ethnic background and I sympathise with your ideological compromises just to be accepted.

I am done with your hypocrisy, double standards and victimhood complexes. Bye bye.

Fact check : we are world's largest exporter of buffalo beef. We don't export cows for slaughter. Your lies are truly pathetic.
 
Hypicrisy?

Far more Muslims live in western countries where Satanic verses is sold and they can't live in their own countries without banning it.

The only hypocrite here is YOU. Because a hypocrite is one who holds different people to different standards. That is YOU. You want Hindus to allow beef (I agree with u) but u don't want Muslims to allow Satanic Verses sale (I want them to - also called ethical consistency).

By textbook definition you are the hypocrite here with deep deep victimhood complexes over compensated by a supremacism bend.

Having said that, I realised your ethnic background and I sympathise with your ideological compromises just to be accepted.

I am done with your hypocrisy, double standards and victimhood complexes. Bye bye.
I am for freedom of speech of all kinds including for the author of satanic verses. I might not agree with their views but to oppose them it is necessary to use logic and beat them with the power of your own greater philosophy.

India has never succeeded in being truly secular and as a result muslims will never accept ourselves as part of this nation that imposes on us not to eat what we are allowed to eat. The beef ban is at the heart of Indias conservative image. Once you deal with it come back and feel free to guide Pakistanis on how to treat our minorities. Until then step off your moral high horse and look at the world. India has always felt it is better than Pakistan in religious freedom. Yet muslims are at the bottom of the wealth and literacy chart. Change that, then demand us to change.
 
This does not mean there is no discrimination against minorities in Pakistan. Only minorities themselves can tell us how safe they feel in Pakistan. Why are we speaking for them?

As for the videos you posted. Did I ever say patriotism was a Muslim only thing? Patriotism knows no bounds imposed by religion and anyone can be patriotic. These videos should be seen as natural, the patriotism of a Pakistani citizen regardless of religion.

I do feel with the naming of a uni over Abdus Salam is a good step even though the anti conversion bill has been shot down by none other than mullahs and even the provincial government. Some good things do occur vis a vis minorities but there is much more needed to be done. This open speaking about blasphemy laws and religious egalitarianism shouldn't be seen as anti Pakistanism. No one is insulting Pakistan here. Instead we are trying to make it better and much more inclusive.
I do not deny that discrimination that does not exist ..but it is neither unique to Pakistan nor limited to minorities, the poor and weak people get exploited by the rich and powerful and that happens in every part of the world to varying degrees and Pakistan has one of the extreme disparities among different strata of the society . The rich and powerful people abuse their authorities to rig the system in their favour whether it is taxation, budgetary allocations, VIP culture, bank loans, and other facilities...a parliamentarian or a minister from a minority is most likely to exhibit the same character as his or her counterparts from majority group.

This system of injustice makes everyone, who is its victim, unhappy and that's not limited to just non-Muslim but Muslims too and there are plenty of surveys which show that to varying degree and one very famous was the interview of then PM of Pakistan Yusuf Raza Geelani to BBC in which host asked him the question that 50% of the Pakistanis want to leave the country and he very condescendingly replied "Who's stopping them, why don't they leave"...
However that unhappiness has not reached the level when people take up arms against the state as happened in case of Bangladesh or else-where in the world.

The solution is to reform the system and add elements of social and economic justice as practiced during the early times of Islamic state established in Madina by the Holy Prophet (ﷺ) which reached the unprecedented levels in the times of Caliph Umar.
 
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I do not deny that discrimination that does not exist ..but it is neither unique to Pakistan nor limited to minorities, poor and weak people get exploited by the rich and powerful and that happens in every part of the world to varying degrees and Pakistan has one of extreme disparities among different strata of the society . The rich and powerful people abuse their authorities to rig the system in their favour whether it is taxation, budgetary allocations, VIP culture, bank loans, and other facilities...a parliamentarian or a minister from a minority is most likely exhibit the same character as his or her counterparts from majority group.

Well your stand from an initial view is understandable. Hindus Parsis and Sikhs are all economically superior to Muslims in Pakistan with a gdp per capita higher than Muslims. So what you say is correct to some extent. But there is a purposeful targetting of minorities going on in Pakistan which simply can't be controlled

We have to push for some reforms. Blasphemy law if not scrapped has to be amended. There has to be a law against forced conversions, there has to be action against dacoits who kidnap hindu women and there has to be action against people who accuse others wrongly of blasphemy.

I also believe in extra rights for minorities. If we aim for extra, we will achieve nominal rights.

This system of injustice makes everyone who is its victim is unhappy and that's not limited to just non-Muslim but Muslims too and there are plenty of surveys which show that to varying degree and one very famous was the interview of then PM of Pakistan Yusuf Raza Geelani to BBC in which host asked him the question that 50% of the Pakistanis want to leave this country and he very condescendingly replied "Who's stopping them, why don't they leave"...

I agree. Many Muslims are not happy in Pakistan either. Poverty and illteracy and the main reasons of violence against minorities. Sadly the literacy rate has fallen in Pakistan from 2009-2015.
However that unhappiness has not reached the level when people take up arms against the state as happened in case of Bangladesh or else-where in the world.

Of course. That revolution wasn't caused by religion but ethnicity and let us hope we ignore neither aspect.

The solution is reform the system and add elements of social and economic justice as practiced during the early times of Islamic state established in Madina by the Holy Prophet (ﷺ) which reached the unprecedented levels in the times of Caliph Umar.

I agree here. Umar introduced the first secular Islamic system which philosphers like Ibn Rushd refined later on. In turn it led to heavy levels of conversion to Islam in conquered territories. But I do feel that we do not clearly understand the pro minority policies of the rashiduns. We have to treat our minorities with utmost respect.
 

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