Iran: A "Role Model" For Pakistan To Get Self-Reliance in Defence

[Serpentine]

@Serpentine I think you are going way too easy on this guy. These people can't even develop a uav .The closest thing they did was buy a Chinese Ch-3 and rename it. They have no air defence development capability, no development submarine capability, no radar capability, no engine capability etc etc and they are claiming Iran is not a good role model for them. They seem to be highly deluded. The reality is, Iran is vastly superior to them when it comes to indigenous capability. Of course they resort to nonesensical counter argument like using the mockup of qaher without paying attention to the final developed products Iran is manufacturing.

When your country is nothing but a client state of China, you should not try and make jokes about others.

Let me just disagree with you. I think your comment comes mostly from emotions than realities.

PS: Pakistan is not like Arab countries, although they are not in a position to talk from above to us in terms of defense industries, they are not like what you said either.

 

[xyxmt]

Why you think so?. Only an ignorant and Jahil ordinary Pashtun, with no exposure to outside world, will be O.K with Kalabagh dam. It is convenient to tag the issue with ANP and call it a problem of nationalists on payroll of India. But in case you have not noticed , every Pashtun of Peshawar valley, from every political background and ideology oppose Kalabagh dam with few exceptions. I am from a southern district and Punjab tell us that Kalabagh dam will be at least beneficial to southern districts. But only DI Khan will benefit from it. My district and Karak will actually suffer from it, the damned dam will salinize our underground sweet water.

We dont trust WAPDA reports, world bank or some other international should be brought into this issue. Government must convince us that it wont ruin our most fertile districts, in short or long term. We have no problems with Punjab prospering from the dam, we are concerned about our health here.........

lol awesome man, just keep your swimming practice going cause glaciers are melting

 

[The Last of us]

Serpentine,
Sorry bro, but just in the last page alone, I have posted some evidence. I have been following Iranian defence development for 10 years now. If members like to dispute any of the points, they're obviously free to do so but to say they're emerging from points of emotions rather than realities is not a counter argument.

If they want to do comparison on their industries, I'll be more than happy but my original statement stands. Iran is simply more superior in term indigenous development capability. This is not just true in military either, but in host of other fields.

 

[xyxmt]

@Serpentine I think you are going way too easy on this guy. These people can't even develop a uav .The closest thing they did was buy a Chinese Ch-3 and rename it. They have no air defence development capability, no development submarine capability, no radar capability, no engine capability etc etc and they are claiming Iran is not a good role model for them. They seem to be highly deluded. The reality is, Iran is vastly superior to them when it comes to indigenous capability. Of course they resort to nonesensical counter argument like using the mockup of qaher without paying attention to the final developed products Iran is manufacturing.

When your country is nothing but a client state of China, you should not try and make jokes about others.

I asked so many Iranians in the post about Iran super speed stealth boat that can travel at 130 NM, and picture posted was not bigger than a 36 foot fishing boat. I just want to know what kind of engine Iran had developed that can be installed in a 36' boat and push to 130 NM, that to a armoured boat

 

[Indus Pakistan]

*sigh* Litte boy's arguing about which zero is bigger. Turk 0, Persian 0 or Pak 0,. Tiny Isreal has more technology then Turks, Iranian's and Pak combined. So you all sober up.

@The Last of us Most of the Iranian members are fine examples of Persian maturity and sophistication. You I am afraid are a exception. In my previous post in this thread I said I respected Iran and in particular the social progress was something we could do with in Pakistan.

However you keep singing on about the oil so you leave me no option but to look at this subject. Iran's economic achievements are nothing but abysmal considering she has oil. Iran has some of the largest oil reserves in the world. Having oil is equivalent to winning lottery. Overnight you can become millionaire and you don't even have to do any work. It is like I find gold bars in my garden today.

Let us look at your economy. You exported $61 billion to the world. So that means after a whole year of working Iran managed sell $61 billion. That is not too bad. However looking at how Iran made that £61 billion - Well 80% was oil based which is $48 billion. Now think about this. 80% of your exports are blessing of nature. Forget about mighty Persians even Nigerians with that oil would have made exactly $48 billion.

Taking away the oil the picture that emerges is humbling. Automobiles and few fruits and nuts was the actual achievement of the combined genius of the Iraian people. Nuts, carpets and fruits. Might I add I have bought Iranian almonds and they are exquisite.

However the bottom line is $12 billion. Trust me with $12 billion you would be near bankrupt. So it is oil that keeps you going.

For referance Pakistan Pakistan exports are $30 billion all of which is the product of hard work. Pakistan is about 3 times larger so by ratio Pakistan's exports are $10 billion toward Iran's $12 billion.

Notice your oil exports at $48 billion are greater than all the exports of Pakistan at $30 billion.

Economy of Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Economy of Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Economy of Turkey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

* The real star here is Turkey. She has done well although her position on the gareway to Europe gives her a advantage almost equivalent to the oil factor if not more.

Exports.

Pakistan - $30 billion
Iran - $61 billion ( minus oil $12 billion )
Turkey - $176 billion

as a comparison Isreal with population less than Istanbul, Tehran or Lahore exports $62 billion.

Economy of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[The Last of us]

@Atanz


Did I not make it very clear that Iran is under the most severe sanctions in history? Iran's revenues under sanctions were not that different from Pakistan. Oil and gas mean little when you're not allowed to use SWIFT and other systems. Sorry but oil is not a miracle cure, especially if you'e under sanctions. I guarantee if you had the same reserves as Iran and you could actually sell them properly (which Iran can't) then you would not be extraordinary different. Pakistan needs to stop blaming its situation on lack of oil. It is your system that is messed up.

Saudi arabia exports 10 times more oil than Iran. Yet look at them. Are they anything spectacular? They can't even manufacture a spoon.

I asked so many Iranians in the post about Iran super speed stealth boat that can travel at 130 NM, and picture posted was not bigger than a 36 foot fishing boat. I just want to know what kind of engine Iran had developed that can be installed in a 36' boat and push to 130 NM, that to a armoured boat

And I debunked this comment of yours many times but obviously you conveniently can't remember. They never showed any picture related to that speed boat, the only thing they released was that it was an ongoing project. So that "fishing" boat you saw was either in your fantasy or some random picture. As for the engine, I had already commented on that but again, you pretend not to remember.

 

[nax]

For Pakistan is better not trying to be 100% self-reliance. apart from nuclear weapon, If there are other modern system available for sale for a reasonable price and with technology transfer it is more desirable to buy. because develop a complete defense industry is very expensive and may not achieve a good outcome. China is the good example in the period of 1950-1990. massive resource spent on self-reliance and the outcome was poor, by the time of 1990 Chinese military hardware was at least two generations behind the west or soviet even though China was able to produce almost everything.

 

[Daneshmand]

@Atanz

You obviously pretending to be sleeping here it seems?
Did I not make it very clear that Iran is under the most severe sanctions in history? Iran's revenues under sanctions were not that different from Pakistan. Oil and gas mean little when you're not allowed to use SWIFT and other systems. Sorry but oil is not a miracle cure, especially if you'e under sanctions. I guarantee if you had the same reserves as Iran and you could actually sell them properly (which Iran can't) then you would not be extraordinary different. Pakistan needs to stop blaming its backwardness on lack of oil. It is your system that is messed up.

Saudi arabia exports 10 times more oil than Iran. Yet look at them. Are they anything spectacular? They can't even manufacture a spoon.



And I debunked this comment of yours many times but obviously you conveniently can't remember. They never showed any picture related to that speed boat, the only thing they released was that it was an ongoing project. So that "fishing" boat you saw was either in your fantasy or some random picture. As for the engine, I had already commented on that but again, like an you pretend not to remember.

Bro, there is no point in arguing like this. Atanz is a very mature and knowledgeable person. You should not argue with him at the level of replying to trolls (I know there are so many of these trolls here, that sometimes it gets confusing).

What Atanz is saying is correct. There is alot of work needing to be done. Not only in Iran but also in Pakistan and even Turkey (whose economy by the way is a debt driven one, unsustainable one).

Though I agree with you that Pakistan should not blame its problems on lack of oil. Since oil actually plays a small part in economic development of a nation unless a nation has a small population like Kuwait or Saudis compared to the amount of oil they produce. Pakistan should really concentrate on why South Korea who borrowed Pakistan's Economic Development Plan in 1960's prospered and Pakistan faltered. Instead of blaming God for not giving them oil, they should concentrate why they could not use other resources available to them to build a developed Pakistan.

 

[haviZsultan]

That's a very shallow viewpoint here. I'm not going to defend projects like Qaher, but, to let you have an idea, we couldn't even produce simple mortar rounds and high caliber bullets in some periods of Iran-Iraq war (and we actually lost soldiers and people because of it). I'm telling you this so you can have an idea where we were (and at the end of the war, we were using simple drones, the first country in whole region to make UAVs). We had to beg foreign countries to sell us missiles or to even teach us how to shoot them. For your info, it was Syrians who first taught us how to shoot missiles in 80s.

I'm not saying we are very advanced in making any stuff, but I do know that, in case of a war, we don't have to ask any foreigners to sell us the most simple stuff anymore, letting them blackmail us or play with our lives. Can you say the same about your Arab brothers? They may have the most advanced jets, weapons or other things, but can they do shit if Americans/Europeans leave them like they did to us? Nah, they can't.

So I prefer a junk and low quality domestic industry (although we are far ahead of our neighbors in some fields) to a modern army that mostly relies on foreigners. There is nothing to be proud of when you sell oil and buy advanced weapons.

We have had mistakes, maybe some stupid unveilings for propaganda, but I don't have illusion, I know what's the reality and what's not. For foreigners, it's not that easy to get the whole picture, they mostly want something to make fun of. We have had many missed opportunities, but we have also many things to be proud of.

Salam bro. Don't mind Oscar and others. Having a critical outlook helps you find chinks in your armor and often non iranians have this which may be an opportunity to better yourself. This can apply to each country. No muslim country is what it actually should be. We Pakistanis are the 6th largest country by population and our economy is the 25th, 26th largest, pretty pathetic for a state with such potential. We muslims have no core states as defined by huntington. I think we need some serious reformation in each of our countries.

 

[Daneshmand]

*sigh* Litte boy's arguing about which zero is bigger. Turk 0, Persian 0 or Pak 0,. Tiny Isreal has more technology then Turks, Iranian's and Pak combined. So you all sober up.

@The Last of us Most of the Iranian members are fine examples of Persian maturity and sophistication. You I am afraid are a exception. In my previous post in this thread I said I respected Iran and in particular the social progress was something we could do with in Pakistan.

However you keep singing on about the oil so you leave me no option but to look at this subject. Iran's economic achievements are nothing but abysmal considering she has oil. Iran has some of the largest oil reserves in the world. Having oil is equivalent to winning lottery. Overnight you can become millionaire and you don't even have to do any work. It is like I find gold bars in my garden today.

Let us look at your economy. You exported $61 billion to the world. So that means after a whole year of working Iran managed sell $61 billion. That is not too bad. However looking at how Iran made that £61 billion - Well 80% was oil based which is $48 billion. Now think about this. 80% of your exports are blessing of nature. Forget about mighty Persians even Nigerians with that oil would have made exactly $48 billion.

Taking away the oil the picture that emerges is humbling. Automobiles and few fruits and nuts was the actual achievement of the combined genius of the Iraian people. Nuts, carpets and fruits. Might I add I have bought Iranian almonds and they are exquisite.

However the bottom line is $12 billion. Trust me with $12 billion you would be near bankrupt. So it is oil that keeps you going.

For referance Pakistan Pakistan exports are $30 billion all of which is the product of hard work. Pakistan is about 3 times larger so by ratio Pakistan's exports are $10 billion toward Iran's $12 billion.

Notice your oil exports at $48 billion are greater than all the exports of Pakistan at $30 billion.

Economy of Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Economy of Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Economy of Turkey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

* The real star here is Turkey. She has done well although her position on the gareway to Europe gives her a advantage almost equivalent to the oil factor if not more.

Exports.

Pakistan - $30 billion
Iran - $61 billion ( minus oil $12 billion )
Turkey - $176 billion

as a comparison Isreal with population less than Istanbul, Tehran or Lahore exports $62 billion.

Economy of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What you are saying is generally correct. But you must also take into account that the nature economies you have compared are different. Iran's economy because of multitude of reasons from sanctions to political goals, is an "import substitution economy" with a centrally planned structure. Turkey's economy is an export based economy somewhat integrated into the world's economy providing cheap labor for goods manufacturing of Western companies. Pakistan's economy is mostly an agriculture economy with the most important industrial good exports of textiles.

 

[haviZsultan]

Bro, there is no point in arguing like this. Atanz is a very mature and knowledgeable person. You should not argue with him at the level of replying to trolls (I know there are so many of these trolls here, that sometimes it gets confusing).

What Atanz is saying is correct. There is alot of work needing to be done. Not only in Iran but also in Pakistan and even Turkey (whose economy by the way is a debt driven one, unsustainable one).

Though I agree with you that Pakistan should not blame its problems on lack of oil. Since oil actually plays a small part in economic development of a nation unless a nation has a small population like Kuwait or Saudis compared to the amount of oil they produce. Pakistan should really concentrate on why South Korea who borrowed Pakistan's Economic Development Plan in 1960's prospered and Pakistan faltered. Instead of blaming God for not giving them oil, they should concentrate why they could not use other resources available to them to build a developed Pakistan.

I tend to agree with the bold part. Dubai is a state in the UAE it has no oil and is one of the richest. My point is oil helps but is no guarantor to a stable economy. Venezuela has one of the highest homicide rates and crippling poverty yet it has oil. So nations should not blame or display their insecurity or jealousy for countries that have used oil well and progressed, or some that have no oil and have progressed like countries in Europe (discounting Russia which has oil)

 

[The Last of us]

Bro, there is no point in arguing like this. Atanz is a very mature and knowledgeable person. You should not argue with him at the level of replying to trolls (I know there are so many of these trolls here, that sometimes it gets confusing).

What Atanz is saying is correct. There is alot of work needing to be done. Not only in Iran but also in Pakistan and even Turkey (whose economy by the way is a debt driven one, unsustainable one).

Though I agree with you that Pakistan should not blame its problems on lack of oil. Since oil actually plays a small part in economic development of a nation unless a nation has a small population like Kuwait or Saudis compared to the amount of oil they produce. Pakistan should really concentrate on why South Korea who borrowed Pakistan's Economic Development Plan in 1960's prospered and Pakistan faltered. Instead of blaming God for not giving them oil, they should concentrate why they could not use other resources available to them to build a developed Pakistan.

Dadash, I agree with you 100%. You know how I feel about Iranian situation. Iran has a vast amount of work to be done. The country has corruption and mismanagement. The fact Iran is just 450billion economy is saddening. We need to be a 1 trillion economy asap. I was in no way claiming Iran is paragon of economic prosperity etc. But to claim Iran would be bankrupt or "nothing" without oil is pure none-sense. Iran should and is moving away from exporting simple crude to making and selling petrochemical products, which are very important to industries. Furthermore, the country hopefully will become much more industrialised. But still, Iran has a lot of work to be done. A lot of work. But sadly, the faults in the system seem too difficult to remove.

 

[Serpentine]

Salam bro. Don't mind Oscar and others. Having a critical outlook helps you find chinks in your armor and often non iranians have this which may be an opportunity to better yourself. This can apply to each country. No muslim country is what it actually should be. We Pakistanis are the 6th largest country by population and our economy is the 25th, 26th largest, pretty pathetic for a state with such potential. We muslims have no core states as defined by huntington. I think we need some serious reformation in each of our countries.

No bro, I don't have problems with criticism, not at all. Actually what we never have had any shortage of, is different kinds of problems and shortcomings. I never lie about it, we have like a zillion holes to fill in and we are light years away from what we actually should be. But, there is a distinction between criticism (which is constructive) and mockings.

 

[Winchester]

For Pakistan is better not trying to be 100% self-reliance. apart from nuclear weapon, If there are other modern system available for sale for a reasonable price and with technology transfer it is more desirable to buy. because develop a complete defense industry is very expensive and may not achieve a good outcome. China is the good example in the period of 1950-1990. massive resource spent on self-reliance and the outcome was poor, by the time of 1990 Chinese military hardware was at least two generations behind the west or soviet even though China was able to produce almost everything.

+1

Would you rather end up with this??

Or

 

[The Last of us]

+1

Would you rather end up with this??

Or

I rather end up with this:

Than end up importing and renaming a Chinese UAV and unveil it as "indigenous":

Your state just basically imports and renames Chinese hardware. Let me know when you can develop even a short ranged surface to air missile. Posting some random photoshopped pictures will not help your cause. By the way, Jf-17 is yet another Chinese system