PAF to get extra F-16 Block-52+ ?

[he-man]

If M2K9 are not feasible due to aforesaid reason and used F-16s are not available from US as per PAF requirement then what options are left to replace old M-IIIs & Vs? should we try to get used F-18s or F-15s which might be available from few countries? or try to buy some used upgraded Mig-29s or Su-30s from Russia?

Not possible,not even from china.

 

[Basel]

Not possible,not even from china.

From Ukraine they were available in 90s and now if Russia allows China can sell J-11s to PAF.

 

[he-man]

From Ukraine they were available in 90s and now if Russia allows China can sell J-11s to PAF.

Its not 90's anymore.
@Oscar can answer,i don't want to get banned

 

[araz]

If M2K9 are not feasible due to aforesaid reason and used F-16s are not available from US as per PAF requirement then what options are left to replace old M-IIIs & Vs? should we try to get used F-18s or F-15s which might be available from few countries? or try to buy some used upgraded Mig-29s or Su-30s from Russia?

I think it would be as big a mistake to get other US hardware as it would have been to go for the french one. The most viable option would be to ramp up JFT Production and wait for them to take over. The quickest would of course be more Mlued 16s but that depends on uncle sam playing ball with us.
My2 paisas worth.
Ara

 

[Donatello]

I think it would be as big a mistake to get other US hardware as it would have been to go for the french one. The most viable option would be to ramp up JFT Production and wait for them to take over. The quickest would of course be more Mlued 16s but that depends on uncle sam playing ball with us.
My2 paisas worth.
Ara

Sir i too am against dependence on USA, but JFT program is running late. Imagine the good that a squadron of MLU or New f-16s would do. You can replace those pilot killing Mirage and f-7 squadrons early. JFT will soldier on, but why wait another 4 years for that capability?

 

[Ali Q]

Sir.
Your statement is factually incorrect. M2K9 would need new supply chain to be established. The manufacturing of the plane stopped in 2002. This would be very problematic and expensive. Because of existing supply chain and stores Even bl. 52s would probably turn out to be cheaper. PAF has now evaluates M2Ks thrice and rejected them. MUST TELL you something . The days of the M2ķ are long since over.
Araz

Well PAC has a mirage rebuild factory..and although for mirage 3/5 it can always be modified from mirage 3/5 rebuild to Mirage 2000-9 maintenance and overhaul factory.. But yes you are right that is the reason PAF didn't go for the purchase. Plus IAF has been operating the platform long enough to know how to counter it at ease. Just the same reason IAF didn't buy F-16IN the point being the same, we know more about F-16 based on experience

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

What we need to foscus on Avionics / Radars and High end technology , and engines forget the odd rebuild factories

 

[Storm Force]

PAF has a simple and effective upgrade plan.

F16 they will acquire second hand or used from where they can ie Jordan USA etc.

If POSSIBLE they will encourage USA to sell them upgraded new F16 block 52

PAF will continue to buy/license build the Thunder with their joint project JF17/FC1 block 1 NON bvr & BLOCK 2 BVR etc.

Large AWACS coverage ACHIEVED & better SAMS planned via China most likely in future.

by 2020 I suspect PAF will have 90+ F16MLU/52
100 Thunder mk1 & 2
150 Mixed bag of F7/Mirage3/5


Other potential additions post
50 + MK3 Thunder from 2018 -2020
18 ADDITIONAL F16 block 52 between 2018-2020
40 FC31 from china by 2022 -2025

 

[HRK]

If M2K9 are not feasible due to aforesaid reason and used F-16s are not available from US as per PAF requirement then what options are left to replace old M-IIIs & Vs?

JF-17 are for what other purpose ... ???

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Without a substantial radar upgrade/avionics I am afraid our Air-force would be sitting ducks in next 3-5 years time to modern jets

The Technological void that is happening in Pakistani Military since 70's is not hard to see , when I see our weapons I just see images of World war 2 clalibre production lines

Hope that we focus on AESA radar and more high end technology R&D rather then wasting Millions on Old F16 Block A/B type

A pilot's ability to win a dog fight is one thing but you can't overlook the technological gap that is widening every 4 Years the gap widens

Its common sense , one one side you have Next Generation jets where jet can engage 5-6 planes simultaneously and under 30-40 seconds launch missiles to target 5 older type jets vs the older jets that rely heavily on engaging enemy fighters 1 by 1

It would be nice after we get 100 JF17 thunders , we focus the resources to AESA upgrade rather then adding another 50 jets untill the radar technology matures


I honestly do not see any long term value in Aquiring Old F16 A/B blocks which we can't upgrade or modify or enhance ... its really money wasted .... imagine we spent 20 Million per plane


$20,000,000 x 12 planes = $240 Million Dollars

The same money pumped into Avionics and Radar Research could have perhaps moved our local industry leaps and bounds, a missed opportunity no doubt

 

[Basel]

JF-17 are for what other purpose ... ???

JF-17 procurement and production is slow and PAF needs to replace its old jets fast as mirages are now crashing frequently to do that PAF need off the shelve available products and used jets like F-16, M2K9, Mig-29, Su-30s, F-18s, F-15s, JAS-39s etc fits in it as they can provide good deterrent too.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

The production figures are not well

We should have been making 14 planes / year as it was the original plan

2007 - 2 Thunders 14% efficiency
2008 - 6 Thunders 42% efficiency
2009 - 4 Thunders 28 % efficiency
2010 - 8 Thunders 66 % efficiency
2011 - 9 Thunders 64 %efficiency
2012 - 2 Thunders 57 % efficiency
2013 - 9 Thunders 64 % efficiency

2014 ...we only hear of 2 Block JF17 thunder again a drop to 14% efficiency ratio

However as we can see by the Numbers posted the production never reached double figures of 10 jets / year. Which to me was some what disappointing.

So , with man power we have , and the resources we have its sad that we have not achieved 90% efficiency in production since 2007

What is more puzzling is that we were to receive 36 J10B , in December 2014
36 J10B > 2 JF17 production numbers achieved in 2014. We had a deal in place to get 36 state of art J10B fighter jets , all ready to go however we also opted out of that deal

One can argue , ok well we were focused on JF17 thunder program however the production capacity , and efficiency in our production lines speak otherwise...

We have not produced enough JF17 thunder planes and now do not have J10B 36 jets as well


As useful as the F16 C/D platform is unless we have open access to source code of plane and AESA upgrade on card this plane is not ideal for investment its literally throwing away money


Where does the problem lies ?

Is it man power , there are ample engineers willing to work for Air-force so they can setup 3 shifts if needed (Morning - Afternoon - Night) to get production levels up


Is the bottle neck the Kamra assembly line ?
Well the new assembly line should be constructed no doubt ...

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

If M2K9 are not feasible due to aforesaid reason and used F-16s are not available from US as per PAF requirement then what options are left to replace old M-IIIs & Vs? should we try to get used F-18s or F-15s which might be available from few countries? or try to buy some used upgraded Mig-29s or Su-30s from Russia?

F 15 would be a good option but it would be expensive to maintain.

@Oscar
Block 30/32, 40/42, and 50/52 were later C/D versions.[125] The F-16C/D had a unit cost of US$18.8 million (1998).[2]Operational cost per flight hour has been estimated at $7,000[126] to $22,470[127]or $24,000, depending on calculation method.[128]

Will these Aircraft not be all most at half price now and at par to the MLUed ones?

 

[Basel]

F 15 would be a good option but it would be expensive to maintain.

If used F-15s can be procured then PAF can maintain them like IDF and KSA can help in maintaining them, but in my opinion used F-18s with upgrades will be better option as F-18s are still going to be produced in near future more then F-15s and they are going to be upgraded to Advance Super Hornet standard too.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

The production figures are not well

We should have been making 14 planes / year as it was the original plan

2007 - 2 Thunders 14% efficiency
2008 - 6 Thunders 42% efficiency
2009 - 4 Thunders 28 % efficiency
2010 - 8 Thunders 66 % efficiency
2011 - 9 Thunders 64 %efficiency
2012 - 2 Thunders 57 % efficiency
2013 - 9 Thunders 64 % efficiency

2014 ...we only hear of 2 Block JF17 thunder again a drop to 14% efficiency ratio

However as we can see by the Numbers posted the production never reached double figures of 10 jets / year. Which to me was some what disappointing.

So , with man power we have , and the resources we have its sad that we have not achieved 90% efficiency in production since 2007

What is more puzzling is that we were to receive 36 J10B , in December 2014
36 J10B > 2 JF17 production numbers achieved in 2014. We had a deal in place to get 36 state of art J10B fighter jets , all ready to go however we also opted out of that deal

One can argue , ok well we were focused on JF17 thunder program however the production capacity , and efficiency in our production lines speak otherwise...

We have not produced enough JF17 thunder planes and now do not have J10B 36 jets as well


As useful as the F16 C/D platform is unless we have open access to source code of plane and AESA upgrade on card this plane is not ideal for investment its literally throwing away money


Where does the problem lies ?

Is it man power , there are ample engineers willing to work for Air-force so they can setup 3 shifts if needed (Morning - Afternoon - Night) to get production levels up


Is the bottle neck the Kamra assembly line ?
Well the new assembly line should be constructed no doubt ...

Are you saying that only 40 Jf 17's were produced. AS far as I have read on this forum is that J-10B was only till a MOU.