Zimbabwe: Military Coup updates & discussions

[denel]

I really don't know which South Africa you were led to believe this is happening at

I have family who live in Durban and Cape Town. The reality is that more houses were being built for the poor Blacks during apartheid than currently. The standard of education at state schools (attended by majority poor Blacks or "coloured people" as you refer to them) has dropped dismally since the Black government took over. Crime has skyrocketed. Unemployment figures are beyond belief compared to White rule when sanctions were then in place. Corruption is so endemic that it has become a laughing reality where billions of South African Rand are being siphoned off by corrupt officials (remember this is tax money which should be used to uplift the life of the people). The reality is also that an Indian national family have hijacked the state where they have bought off the President and his family (who are openly and unashamedly corrupt) and most of his ministers to the extent that they now control state owned entities. They hire and fire government ministers. If you believe that this is a great ideal in any country then heaven help you

Listen friend, your family did not live under apartheid when it was in full force; Durban and Cape Town are just two tiny microcosms of this vast country. For you to say from an outsider's prespective Apartheid was good, you need to get your head examined. Just ask or try to live in Gaza or occupied territories and face the continous harassment. Who ever told you education was good? - thousands and thousands of kids went to neighbouring countries to study given the 2nd class education. My dearest friend lost his cousin of 3 years when he was taken to hospital with high fever because he was turned away from the hospital as he was of coloured race and nearest hospital for accommodating non white was 3 hours away; the kid passed away on the way; if that is not enough for you - targetting killing of my own family who lived on the border by aparthied paramilitary forces - my cousin, his wife and 2 deaf kids were shot and dynamited. So, please before you go on a verbal diahorea from a colonial British mentality - you are clueless on what it was like here.

Sure it is not good here right now because of the transplanted indians who have hijacked our politics; go and see outside their homes; they are scared to even come back to SA and are sitting away in Dubai. Sure but surely tide is turning and ANC is very very likely to lose upcoming election like they have of major metropolitan areas.

First action i want the government to do is to kick every illegal out including hundred and thousands of Pak, chinese, Nigerians, somalis etc not to mention 2+mil of Zimbabweans totalling over 4mil. We need to take back our country from all these aliens.

Next is to lock up each and every ANC bastards who have ransacked our country with impunity.

 

[Politico]

Listen friend, your family did not live under apartheid when it was in full force; Durban and Cape Town are just two tiny microcosms of this vast country. For you to say from an outsider's prespective Apartheid was good, you need to get your head examined. Just ask or try to live in Gaza or occupied territories and face the continous harassment. Who ever told you education was good? - thousands and thousands of kids went to neighbouring countries to study given the 2nd class education. My dearest friend lost his cousin of 3 years when he was taken to hospital with high fever because he was turned away from the hospital as he was of coloured race and nearest hospital for accommodating non white was 3 hours away; the kid passed away on the way; if that is not enough for you - targetting killing of my own family who lived on the border by aparthied paramilitary forces - my cousin, his wife and 2 deaf kids were shot and dynamited. So, please before you go on a verbal diahorea from a colonial British mentality - you are clueless on what it was like here.

Sure it is not good here right now because of the transplanted indians who have hijacked our politics; go and see outside their homes; they are scared to even come back to SA and are sitting away in Dubai. Sure but surely tide is turning and ANC is very very likely to lose upcoming election like they have of major metropolitan areas.

First action i want the government to do is to kick every illegal out including hundred and thousands of Pak, chinese, Nigerians, somalis etc not to mention 2+mil of Zimbabweans totalling over 4mil. We need to take back our country from all these aliens.

Next is to lock up each and every ANC bastards who have ransacked our country with impunity.

Sugar coat it in any way you want to but the fact is that your country is so corruptly ruled and crime ridden that it is heading in the same way as most of the states surrounding you except for Namibia which seems to be one of the few countries in Africa which has competent rule. Then again perhaps it is the educational level of the population. In a crowd of fools, wise men will be swept aside while fools elect fools to lead them. That was the nub of my argument. Pity if it offends you as an African but your nation is heading in the same direction as the rest of Africa. Few exceptions off course

 

[denel]

Sugar coat it in any way you want to but the fact is that your country is so corruptly ruled and crime ridden that it is heading in the same way as most of the states surrounding you except for Namibia which seems to be one of the few countries in Africa which has competent rule. Then again perhaps it is the educational level of the population. In a crowd of fools, wise men will be swept aside while fools elect fools to lead them. That was the nub of my argument. Pity if it offends you as an African but your nation is heading in the same direction as the rest of Africa. Few exceptions off course

Pal..... we know of the corruption and rampantness which came when people like yourself and others from rest of Africa and asia came to this country brought those values with you. Before it was not like that.
Yes our first generation was loyal to ANC but the new generation is not; you are not here on the ground to see what is happening. It does not offend me on the contrary criticism is valid and it is reality here; but your portrayal of our population is something i take offence to. We had entire millions who were deliberately kept illiterate and those folks are very ordinary and humble; come to our province and visit the rural areas to see for yourself. People of your family in Cape Town or Durban lived in their own confinements and were given a 2nd class privileged status. You can tell me if they came before or after aparthied; because before 1993, noone from the subcontinent could get a visa here without getting their passport revoked.
Regretfully the people did not choose the leaders; the ANC caucus had their own internal coup and sidelined Mbeki and others. We have never seen such atrocious leadership and the reality on the ground right now is we have for the first time a generation which has grown outside apartheid era and they are the ones who are demanding better deliver of services and leadership.
It is a pity however you have the same narrative as the colonialists; time will heal and we should be back to normal once we deal with Guptas and their puppets.
Btw - have you ever been to Namibia? I go there every year; a better case is Botswana which is the best governed country in the continent.

 

[mike2000 is back]

a better case is Botswana which is the best governed country in the continent

I agree, I witnessed that myself. Botswana is indeed an exception in Africa, in terms of good governance, democracy, peace and stability. It was also the least corrupt country I visited in Africa by far(even less corrupt than some western countries). If only other african countries could learn from them.

 

[Politico]

Pal..... we know of the corruption and rampantness which came when people like yourself and others from rest of Africa and asia came to this country brought those values with you. Before it was not like that.
Yes our first generation was loyal to ANC but the new generation is not; you are not here on the ground to see what is happening. It does not offend me on the contrary criticism is valid and it is reality here; but your portrayal of our population is something i take offence to. We had entire millions who were deliberately kept illiterate and those folks are very ordinary and humble; come to our province and visit the rural areas to see for yourself. People of your family in Cape Town or Durban lived in their own confinements and were given a 2nd class privileged status. You can tell me if they came before or after aparthied; because before 1993, noone from the subcontinent could get a visa here without getting their passport revoked.
Regretfully the people did not choose the leaders; the ANC caucus had their own internal coup and sidelined Mbeki and others. We have never seen such atrocious leadership and the reality on the ground right now is we have for the first time a generation which has grown outside apartheid era and they are the ones who are demanding better deliver of services and leadership.
It is a pity however you have the same narrative as the colonialists; time will heal and we should be back to normal once we deal with Guptas and their puppets.
Btw - have you ever been to Namibia? I go there every year; a better case is Botswana which is the best governed country in the continent.

Hi. Firstly, my family in South Africa are White Britons and not Asians or Africans. Secondly, no disrespect meant to you but the narrative which you gave above usually become meaningless excuses which many Africans repeat when their countries fall apart and they seek residence in European countries. I have been to Namibia. An excellent destination with more value for money for the tourist that South Africa offers with much more safety afforded to the tourist by both the locals and the police than in South Africa. I heard good things about Botswana and am eager to go there. Hopefully will do when I get married in Cape Town next year.

 

[The Diplomat]

Zimbabwe military 'engaging' with Mugabe over leadership impasse
(CNN) Zimbabwean President Robert Mugabe appears to be resisting efforts to force him to stand aside, two days after a remarkable military takeover of the country's government.

A statement from the Zimbabwe Defense Forces (ZDF) released early Friday said that military leaders were "currently engaging" with President Robert Mugabe and would advise the nation of the outcome as soon as possible.

The statement, which was read on state television, said the ZDF had made "significant progress" in its operation to apprehend "criminals" around Mugabe, the justification it used for its overnight military takeover Wednesday.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/11/17/africa/zimbabwe-unrest/index.html

 

[denel]

Hi. Firstly, my family in South Africa are White Britons and not Asians or Africans. Secondly, no disrespect meant to you but the narrative which you gave above usually become meaningless excuses which many Africans repeat when their countries fall apart and they seek residence in European countries. I have been to Namibia. An excellent destination with more value for money for the tourist that South Africa offers with much more safety afforded to the tourist by both the locals and the police than in South Africa. I heard good things about Botswana and am eager to go there. Hopefully will do when I get married in Cape Town next year.

Lets see what change we get this coming election; unfortunately, when 'educated' americans can choose Trump; we need to let democracy work.
Unfortunately you have no idea what it was like in Apartheid and have not see the brutality - hence will ask you to keep these racist opinions of praising the dark past. As far as Britain is concerned, you are welcome to my home town of Mafikeng to see the graves left behind of the first massive concentration camps following the war; the colonial past is nothing to be praised either.
As with any change, it will take time and frankly change is in the air already.
The topic was of ZImbabwe let us stick to it.

 

[The Diplomat]

Lets see what change we get this coming election; unfortunately, when 'educated' americans can choose Trump; we need to let democracy work.
Unfortunately you have no idea what it was like in Apartheid and have not see the brutality - hence will ask you to keep these racist opinions of praising the dark past. As far as Britain is concerned, you are welcome to my home town of Mafikeng to see the graves left behind of the first massive concentration camps following the war; the colonial past is nothing to be praised either.
As with any change, it will take time and frankly change is in the air already.
The topic was of ZImbabwe let us stick to it.

Your probably the most educated on the topic than most of us PDF here as you have an inside (living in Zimbabwe) prospective. What do you see happening in the coming days and what are your opinions on Mugabe?

 

[denel]

Your probably the most educated on the topic than most of us PDF here as you have an inside (living in Zimbabwe) prospective. What do you see happening in the coming days and what are your opinions on Mugabe?

Here is my take; I saw the bush war and I saw when Mugabe came to power; i was just across the border on the day when the results were announced; it was a major shock to everyone. There were 2 groups - northern and eastern. Northern were Zipra lead by Joshua Nkomo supported by USSR, India and most of commonweath states and Front line states; however Eastern was Mugabe supported by Tanzania, China, Pakistan, and Mozambique.
In my view, the change in flight is an internal squabble within Zanu-PF on the successor to Mugabe; the witch Grace would have taken the country to another abyss; however the prior VP is no better. If SADCC is to be believed, the pressure is on for a transitional government with a fair election to be held. If we see Zanu-PF still hold on to power thereafter, I fear there is no credible change except the same dismal destructive policies of the past and the very citizens of Zimbabwe who will continue to bear the brunt of the problem.
Within SADF and pre-ANC govt we had already delivered message to Mugabe that it would take just two days to castrate entire ZDF and change the entire govt. 8 years ago, we were told to be prepare to step in just in case Mugabe ran amok under Mbeki leadership. Uncle TIM (That Izzzz Mugabe) as he is favouritely known .
At this stage, I see following two options.
1. Mugabe as a double cross sly fox that he is will try to hold on to some kind of status and still try to out route his opponents.
2. SADCC listens to Khame who has categorically said today, 'presidents are not monarchs'. Mugabe will have no choice but to step down with dignity.
Next will be what follows:
1. Transitional route. I doubt that Zanu-PF elite who have made themselves rich off the back of the country will let go of power.
2. People of Zimbabwe take to the street and demand change tomorrow morning. They are too cowards to do anything internally.
It is unsteady times for now as there is potential of violence by Zanu-PF cadres who have done genocide in matebeleland and Mugabe was never held to account; later against farmers and then on behest of the witch wife of his.

 

[The Diplomat]

Here is my take; I saw the bush war and I saw when Mugabe came to power; i was just across the border on the day when the results were announced; it was a major shock to everyone. There were 2 groups - northern and eastern. Northern were Zipra lead by Joshua Nkomo supported by USSR, India and most of commonweath states and Front line states; however Eastern was Mugabe supported by Tanzania, China, Pakistan, and Mozambique.
In my view, the change in flight is an internal squabble within Zanu-PF on the successor to Mugabe; the witch Grace would have taken the country to another abyss; however the prior VP is no better. If SADCC is to be believed, the pressure is on for a transitional government with a fair election to be held. If we see Zanu-PF still hold on to power thereafter, I fear there is no credible change except the same dismal destructive policies of the past and the very citizens of Zimbabwe who will continue to bear the brunt of the problem.
Within SADF and pre-ANC govt we had already delivered message to Mugabe that it would take just two days to castrate entire ZDF and change the entire govt. 8 years ago, we were told to be prepare to step in just in case Mugabe ran amok under Mbeki leadership. Uncle TIM (That Izzzz Mugabe) as he is favouritely known .
At this stage, I see following two options.
1. Mugabe as a double cross sly fox that he is will try to hold on to some kind of status and still try to out route his opponents.
2. SADCC listens to Khame who has categorically said today, 'presidents are not monarchs'. Mugabe will have no choice but to step down with dignity.
Next will be what follows:
1. Transitional route. I doubt that Zanu-PF elite who have made themselves rich off the back of the country will let go of power.
2. People of Zimbabwe take to the street and demand change tomorrow morning. They are too cowards to do anything internally.
It is unsteady times for now as there is potential of violence by Zanu-PF cadres who have done genocide in matebeleland and Mugabe was never held to account; later against farmers and then on behest of the witch wife of his.

If I understand correctly Uncle Tim (Mugabe) is hero turned villain for the following reasons:

Hero: Was a key player in the liberation movement of Zimbabwe and therefor people saw him as the father of the nation. Point to be noted; I said saw him and not still see's him.

Villain: Used power and corrupt methods to stay a key player in the country's politics, want's his wife to be his successor and fired his long time colleague the VP, so that his wife Grace could have less competition.
He's corrupt and used national funds for his personal gains, i.e invested in his owns funds and earns through his trade receivables.

You also mentioned the two camps; one with India, USSR, etc and the other with China, Pakistan, etc. Are you referring to the 1980's and the independence struggle?
I would appreciate if you could go into detail about what you meant by "Bush War", I'm not very educated on the topic. Was it a civil war?

 

[denel]

If I understand correctly Uncle Tim (Mugabe) is hero turned villain for the following reasons:

Hero: Was a key player in the liberation movement of Zimbabwe and therefor people saw him as the father of the nation. Point to be noted; I said saw him and not still see's him.

Villain: Used power and corrupt methods to stay a key player in the country's politics, want's his wife to be his successor and fired his long time colleague the VP, so that his wife Grace could have less competition.
He's corrupt and used national funds for his personal gains, i.e invested in his owns funds and earns through his trade receivables.

You also mentioned the two camps; one with India, USSR, etc and the other with China, Pakistan, etc. Are you referring to the 1980's and the independence struggle?
I would appreciate if you could go into detail about what you meant by "Bush War", I'm not very educated on the topic. Was it a civil war?

The term Bush war or also known as Chimurenga or war of liberation; Bush war is noted as such from Ian Smith's UDI and later from the liberation movement. Yes, this is the 1980's and independence struggle where there were 2 camps; there was a 3rd one lead by a bishop muserewa but it was considered as a prox from Ian.
You have to go back in time to the history of this region and Cecil Rhodes who came up north for opportunity and carved out an entire region under his name - Rhodesia (Northern, Southern).
There are several books devoted to this notable - Chimurenga by Prof Mcloughlin, father of my friend.
The villian is actually Zanu-PF whose excesses and complete complicity by the head of the military in genocide in Matebeleland and enforcing the will of Mugabe to plundering of Marange diamond mines to fiascos in DRC.
The bush war is also the time when mine proof vehicles are designed for the first time using civilian vehicles namely VW Beetle and others.
It was a terrible time.

 

[livingdead]

no posts so far. if this shit happens in ME or europe this thread would be full of people. it seems that in this forum black lives dont matter. sad world we live in

it was front page breaking news on bbc yesterday... it is a big news but this is a peaceful coup... nothing to do with black lives as such.

 

[Śakra]

I agree, I witnessed that myself. Botswana is indeed an exception in Africa, in terms of good governance, democracy, peace and stability. It was also the least corrupt country I visited in Africa by far(even less corrupt than some western countries). If only other african countries could learn from them.

Has a nice flag and national colour (w/e that shade of blue is called) too

 

[denel]

As thought, the old man chose to spun a web around those who told him to stand down. He still will try to drag it out for saving face.

 

[24 Hours]

Zimbabwe's Mugabe resigns, ending four decades of rule

MacDonald Dzirutwe
6 MIN READ

HARARE (Reuters) - Robert Mugabe resigned as Zimbabwe’s president on Tuesday, a week after the army and his former political allies moved to end four decades of rule by a man once feted as an independence hero who became feared as a despot.

His former vice president, Emmerson Mnangagwa, whose sacking this month prompted the military takeover that forced Mugabe out, will be sworn in as president on Wednesday or Thursday, Patrick Chinamasa, legal secretary of the ruling ZANU-PF party, told Reuters.

The 93-year-old Mugabe had clung on for a week after an army takeover, with ZANU-PF urging him to go. He finally resigned moments after parliament began an impeachment process seen as the only legal way to force him out.


Wild celebrations broke out at a joint sitting of parliament when Speaker Jacob Mudenda read out Mugabe’s brief resignation letter. Mugabe, confined to his Harare residence, did not appear.

People danced in the streets of Harare and car horns blared at the news that the era of Mugabe -- who had led Zimbabwe since independence in 1980 -- was finally over. Some brandished posters of Mnangagwa and army chief General Constantino Chiwenga.

Workers turned the Christmas lights on early in Africa Unity Square and people climbed aboard armored vehicles to pose for photographs with soldiers.

Despite the public outpouring of joy, Mugabe’s downfall was as much the result of in-fighting among the political elite as a popular uprising, although thousands of people rallied against him in the days after the army intervened last week.

The army seized power after Mugabe sacked Mnangagwa, ZANU-PF’s favorite to succeed him, in a bid to smooth a path to the presidency for his wife Grace, 52, known to her critics as “Gucci Grace” for her reputed fondness for luxury shopping.

Since the crisis began, Mugabe has been mainly confined to his “Blue Roof” mansion in the capital where Grace is also believed to be.

ZANU-PF chief whip Lovemore Matuke told Reuters that Mnangagwa would be sworn in within 48 hours and serve the remainder of Mugabe’s term until the next election, which must be held by September 2018.


“DIGNITY AND JUSTICE”

“I am very happy with what has happened,” said Maria Sabawu, a supporter of the opposition Movement for Democratic Change (MDC), outside the hotel where the impeachment process was happening.

“I have suffered a lot at the hands of Mugabe’s government,” she said, showing her hand with a missing finger that she said was lost in violence during a presidential run-off election between Mugabe and opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai in 2008.

Mugabe had led Zimbabwe since a guerrilla struggle ended white-minority rule in the country formerly known as Rhodesia.

He took the once-rich nation to economic ruin, presiding over the forced takeover of white-owned farms at the end of the century, which devastated agricultural foreign exchange earnings and led to hyperinflation.


Zimbabweans celebrate after President Robert Mugabe resigns in Harare. REUTERS/Mike Hutchings
But brandishing his anti-colonial credentials and styling himself the Grand Old Man of African politics, Mugabe retained the admiration of many people across the continent.

Amnesty International said that under Mugabe tens of thousands of people were tortured, forcibly disappeared or killed in a culture of impunity that allowed “grotesque crimes to thrive”.

“The people of Zimbabwe deserve better. The next generation of leaders must commit itself to upholding the constitution, living up to Zimbabwe’s international human rights obligations and treating its people with dignity and justice,” the rights group said in a statement.

DECADES OF ISOLATION
Mnangagwa, 75, who fled Zimbabwe after his sacking in fear for his safety, was a chief lieutenant to Mugabe for decades and himself stands accused of participating in repression.


Slideshow (14 Images)
He was internal security chief in the mid-1980s when Mugabe deployed a North Korean-trained brigade against rebels during which 20,000 civilians were killed, according to rights groups.

Reuters reported in September that Mnangagwa was plotting to succeed Mugabe, with army backing, at the helm of a broad coalition to seek Zimbabwe’s re-engagement with the world after decades of isolation from global lenders and donors.

Nicknamed “Ngwena”, or crocodile in the Shona language, an animal famed in Zimbabwean lore for its stealth and ruthlessness, Mnangagwa issued a statement from hiding on Tuesday calling on Zimbabweans to unite to rebuild the country.

Opposition politician and former education minister David Coltart said that call gave hope of lifting a shattered economy from its knees, provided Mnangagwa made good on his promise to reach out to other factions.

“When we all wake up with hangovers tomorrow, we will be reminded of the dreadful state our nation is in - no money in the banks and businesses collapsing,” Coltart told Reuters.

“As Emmerson Mnangagwa said, ZANU-PF is not capable of resolving this issue on its own. I took some comfort from his words. If he translates them into action, the future is positive.”

Zimbabwe’s Platform for Concerned Citizens, a civil society group, called for a national dialogue and a “transitional authority” to decide the country’s future.

Theresa May, prime minister of former colonial power Britain, said Mugabe’s resignation “provides Zimbabwe with an opportunity to forge a new path free of the oppression that characterized his rule”. She said Britain, as “Zimbabwe’s oldest friend”, would do all it could to support the country.

The U.S. embassy in Harare said Zimbabwe was living “a historic moment”.

“Whatever short-term arrangements the government may establish, the path forward must lead to free, fair and inclusive elections,” it said in a statement.

Additional reporting by Cris Chinaka in Harare and Johannesburg bureau; Writing by Robin Pomeroy; Editing by Angus MacSwan and John Stonestreet



Well that's one less African dictator, let's hope his successor is better or at the very least, less worse.