Zardari draws a blank from China visit

[araz]

What are you talking about dude? The Situation he handled was excellent?
Mr Bezerk. i am not a dude. Please refrain form calling me Dude. As to your querry, i have tried to answer some of the querries in the post to Batman. Once we approach each other with civility we can have a debate.
WaSalam
Araz

 

[araz]

What was excellent? Can you tell us what was demanded by indians?
First govt. said evidence is not enough, which we all know was a fabricated dossier! indians did not even allowed to collect the DNA samples of the so called convicted 'Qasai' and their is no way any govt. accept a person who does not have any record in any form in the national database.
Irrespective you register your self or not there exist your record one way or the other! this is the beauty of NADRA database.
Any how no sane person would buy the revelations of Zardari govt. towards the so called carnage of bomby. Which of course were not related to the particular incident and was more like accepting lot more things than this incident!
There are more indian terrorists in Pakistani jails and many roam and operate freely in Pakistan.
Since this is not subject matter, only an interesting read:

Batman.
I spent half an hour answering you only to lose the post due to a stupidity of mine. tells you how computer savvy i am. Anyways let me explain again.
The brilliant thing was the first few days of the incident. Instead of a typical Pakistani knee jerk chest thumping response, he adopted a much low key approach. He assured them of all possible help and assistance. there wasa reason for it. It does not matter what the dossier contains or does not contain. It was international opinion which was against pakistan. if in those circumstances, India had struck, the world would have backed it and pressure on us would have prevented us from responding. banning a few organizations and arresting a few men, threw India off balance and gave us the initial few days to respond. The subsequent international diplomacty done by his Government helped in diffusing international pressure. It then became possible for us to aggressively defend our position. Also it bought the Army time to make any changes to counter any aggressive designs. Now whether it was Zardari or his team or ISI, it was nicely done and needs to be appreciated.
I dont have a NADRA card but hold a NICOP. As far as I know it does not hold DNA information. As such it would not have been of any benefit to get DNA sample. Please let me know if i am wrong

He is running the biggest cabinet of Pakistan's history. He has available the best of both parties who ruled Pakistan perpetually for long time.
On top of that Zardari enjoys the luxury of record number of advisors of repute, who even have declared themself more capable than qualified army generals and have shown apatite to head army, airforce and ISI.

Just because he cabinet is big does not mean that it is capable. I think most of them are leeches sucking pakistan,s blood. I have asked one of my WB friend to comment on the people in his cabinet. i will feed back to you when he responds. Secondly it is one thing to have advisers and another thing to be able to advise or even listen to others advise.

Pakistan's unrest is only the result of anti Pakistan propaganda by media.
On top of that present govt. is forcing existing investors to packup.
Govt. is wasting money on temporary solutions like employing people in state organizations without any checks or opposition!
Afterall only present govt. is to be blamed for currency devaluation, and loss in forex reserves. world wide economic downturn has hardly any thing to do with the crisis of electricity or gas in Pakistan.
Pakistan's downturn is more associated with the Zardari's rule.

I have a few observations. As an insider you may say that pakistani problems are created by the media. However , to a person from outside pakistan, it is that media which dictates their response and also your credit ratings. I agree that Zardari has caused a lot of damage to the country's economy by not taking appropriate action but the reserves and capital flight are not entirely his doing and things had started to get rough from december onwards. Your fuel bills were causing you a major headache.
Gas and electricity issues were there because it was becoming expensive to run the plants on furnace oil, and a lot of companies decided to close plants rather than run them at a loss. The plant in karachi was an example.Also please understand that blaming him for elctricity shortage is really unfair.

Indian support to Zardari and viceversa and his connection with mehsud who has been involved in abduction of Chinese and murder of BB is enough reason for Chinese or Saudia or Turkish to be cautious of moles like Zardari.

Agree with that. However anyone investing money in another country like Pakistan would be cautious specially under prevailing circumstances.

No this is not your humble opinion this is well thought havox you are trying to spread here.

Care to explain this one. Just because my opinion is different from yours gives you the right to accuse me!!Please note that i find this remark of yours insulting and unbecoming of a fellow Pakistani.

If it was not upto China and past govt. there would not have been any Gawadar! It is definitely built by Chian but when was it sold to China ?
I know it was contracted for operations to a Singapore and Dubai based port operator. When this port was built it was forseen that shipping of Chinese goods via this port will be the target but this is mere geography and purely business.
IMO, interdependence of China and Pakistan is big pain in the *** for anti Pakistan elements and by increasing Chinese presence in Gawadar could be the right move to discourage all ill wishers.
BTW, by coincidence this is new indian propaganda which is already in news nothing of new and yours alone.
I have read the article deal with devil, depicting perhaps China as devil!
When you depict China as devil before visit, I think it is a messge for Chinese and all those friendly states thta if they invest or help any progressive govt. they will be next in the line for mud slinging.

i am sorry to have confusse dyou. By selling I meant a metaphoric sale rather than an actual sale. It implies that you have given them a facility in return for a favour. This is not wrong. Pakistan has given access to the chinese and there is news of a Chinese base in the area. in return China has built you a Seaport.However, this is based on mutual interests rather than just a gift of love from the Chinese.
You have impliedthat i have perhaps read and copied from the article. I have not read the said article and the opinions expresssed are my own. You can agree or disagree with them. As long as we can keep it civil i will engage in a debate with you.
WaSalam
Araz

 

[Beskar]

What are you talking about dude? The Situation he handled was excellent?
Mr Bezerk. i am not a dude. Please refrain form calling me Dude. As to your querry, i have tried to answer some of the querries in the post to Batman. Once we approach each other with civility we can have a debate.
WaSalam
Araz

Civility? I don't see a problem with my post. Maybe you should lighten up a little bit. You might be a woman or a 70 year old man, but I don't know that. You're the first person I've ever come across who got offended because of being called a "Dude". Strange.

 

[ejaz007]

A lot has been covered under the zardari's china visit thread. All should go through that thread and then see if his visit was fruitfull or not.

 

[araz]

Civility? I don't see a problem with my post. Maybe you should lighten up a little bit. You might be a woman or a 70 year old man, but I don't know that. You're the first person I've ever come across who got offended because of being called a "Dude". Strange.

Wrtong Munir has objections to it as well. Why cant I just be Araz? Anyways lets move on and debate rather than engage in trivialities
Araz

 

[araz]

Civility? I don't see a problem with my post. Maybe you should lighten up a little bit. You might be a woman or a 70 year old man, but I don't know that. You're the first person I've ever come across who got offended because of being called a "Dude". Strange.

Wrong Munir has objections to it as well. Anyways lets move on and debate rather than engage in trivialities
Araz

 

[qaisar52]

I think he is good in certain aspects. He has turned out ot be an adapt politician and his handling of the Mumbai carnage was really excellent. His problem is that in view of his reputation, no half decent human being does not want to be within the range of his greedy hands. He is therefore in need of economists and other technocrats that can run the affairs of the nation, but cannot find them.
Secondly he could not have taken over in worse times. With the economic down turn, every country is worried and china is no exception. Under these circumstances, would you want to invest in a country virtually torn apart by war and unrest? The chinese understandably are taking a cautious approach. The third thing is what have we got to offer to China in return for its support. we have already virtually sold it the port of gawadar. The buffer theory in my mind is not so relevant anymore, as the turn in tides in Obama administration may well take the pressure off of them. So why should they invest their meagre resources in Pakistan?
This is the crux of the matter in my humble opinion.
WaSalam
Araz

I agree on your Opinion. Nice Observation With out early mind set.

Thanks

 

[sohailbutt]

China doesn't give aid, it gives us business.

zabardast post

i think Pakistan's relationship with US and China are 2 ends to a scale, at one end is America with all the aid (Both Military and Civil when it is in America's own interest, the rest of the time it is banned by congress) and on the other end is China (with countless contribution to Pakistan's development through means of good business).

 

[BATMAN]

Batman. I spent half an hour answering you only to lose the post due to a stupidity of mine. tells you how computer savvy i am. Anyways let me explain again.

I feel sorry for ur loss. It happens to all of us. Believe it or not it happened to me also.
I was logged off due to time and than press submit and in the process some where I lost all what I wrote and I also had to write again...

The brilliant thing was the first few days of the incident. Instead of a typical Pakistani knee jerk chest thumping response, he adopted a much low key approach. He assured them of all possible help and assistance. there wasa reason for it.

Pakistan never had a chest thumping approach in history but we have witnessed much better return diplomacy in earlier times. neither have we seen india so much offensive and surprisingly Pakistan govt. is keeping the activities of RAW in low profile!
There was no reason to adopt a defencive approach while all allegations were full of flaws.
It was clearly mastermind of hawks of india and failure of their navy, intelligence and police and I doubt any individual or bunch of few terrorists can ever cross into india in their convenience right at the moment when india was running a diplomatic campaign against Pakistan on similar grounds.
Ever wonder why such attacks never took place while Musharraf was in control? and never Pakistan agreed and with such an eagerness is some thing a dramatic shift in foreign policy.
All I could remember of Zardari’s brilliance is that his first response was to hand in ISI chief on first call which was perhaps immediately after the CARNAGE.

It does not matter what the dossier contains or does not contain. It was international opinion which was against pakistan.

You think Accepting the baseless blame would have turned international opinion in Pakistan's favor?
There was no international opinion as such becuase of the ongoing discovery of involvement of indian army and security agencies in past genocides of indian Muslims.

if in those circumstances, India had struck, the world would have backed it and pressure on us would have prevented us from responding.

No one was backing up the flawed drama even Interpol had acquitted Pakistan from any links.
Any folly may have committed but US was never in from beginning. Indian strike may have seriously jeopardize American interests in region and may have risked the lives of US soldier in the region.

banning a few organizations and arresting a few men, threw India off balance and gave us the initial few days to respond. The subsequent international diplomacty done by his Government helped in diffusing international pressure. It then became possible for us to aggressively defend our position. Also it bought the Army time to make any changes to counter any aggressive designs. Now whether it was Zardari or his team or ISI, it was nicely done and needs to be appreciated.

This is your opinion but I would never favor sacrificing any person or body on mere demand of enemy state, who’s only objective is to brand Pakistan as they wish.

I dont have a NADRA card but hold a NICOP. As far as I know it does not hold DNA information. As such it would not have been of any benefit to get DNA sample. Please let me know if i am wrong

NICOP and NIC both are same, only difference is printed language and address but this prove you as of Pakistani origin.
DNA info is not there but in absence of DNA samples. we can only look for a person in national database and if he is not there in any form than he is not technically Pakistani and this is all what matter.
There is no need to spend more resources on any further investigations based on flawed dossier.

Just because he cabinet is big does not mean that it is capable. I think most of them are leeches sucking pakistan,s blood. I have asked one of my WB friend to comment on the people in his cabinet. i will feed back to you when he responds. Secondly it is one thing to have advisers and another thing to be able to advise or even listen to others advise.

You said he is handicap becuse he does not have luxury of economists etc. but now if you suggest that his mammoth cabinet and advisers are inept than it is only Zardari to be blame and indicate his own ineptness or tendency.

I have a few observations. As an insider you may say that pakistani problems are created by the media. However , to a person from outside pakistan, it is that media which dictates their response and also your credit ratings. I agree that Zardari has caused a lot of damage to the country's economy by not taking appropriate action but the reserves and capital flight are not entirely his doing and things had started to get rough from december onwards. Your fuel bills were causing you a major headache.
Gas and electricity issues were there because it was becoming expensive to run the plants on furnace oil, and a lot of companies decided to close plants rather than run them at a loss. The plant in karachi was an example.Also please understand that blaming him for elctricity shortage is really unfair.

Since last one year most of the industries have been closed down reducing burden on national grid but at the same time Zardari inducted political activists or appointed them key positions in various state organizations which resulted in poor operations hence we have witnessed worst of Pakistan’s history.
I only blame undue appointments and this is the first backstabbing any political govt. has always done to the national security of Pakistan.

Agree with that. However anyone investing money in another country like Pakistan would be cautious specially under prevailing circumstances.

I’m saying, even if you wish to invest Zardari clan will force you to go packing.
They have closed various ongoing projects. Even though those were financed by foreign investors.

Care to explain this one. Just because my opinion is different from yours gives you the right to accuse me!!Please note that i find this remark of yours insulting and unbecoming of a fellow Pakistani.
i am sorry to have confusse dyou. By selling I meant a metaphoric sale rather than an actual sale. It implies that you have given them a facility in return for a favour. This is not wrong. Pakistan has given access to the chinese and there is news of a Chinese base in the area. in return China has built you a Seaport.However, this is based on mutual interests rather than just a gift of love from the Chinese.
You have impliedthat i have perhaps read and copied from the article. I have not read the said article and the opinions expresssed are my own. You can agree or disagree with them. As long as we can keep it civil i will engage in a debate with you.

I apologies but the word selling have totally different implication and by chance a day before I read similar propaganda in Dawn-Herald.
BTW, Pakistan is a friendly neighbor to China and our stability and prosperity is in better interest of China but it brings benefits to us before it effect China. If you call it a mutual interest than be my guest.

 

[BATMAN]

Diplomacy forced Pakistan to admit 26/11 link: Sonia

UCHANA(Jind): Congress chief Sonia Gandhi on Sunday said the diplomatic pressure from New Delhi left Islamabad with no choice but to admit the truth that the 26/11 terror attack was planned in its soil.

In the run-up to Lok Sabha elections, Sonia set the tone for Congress-led UPA government's bid for a fresh mandate, praising India's "growth story''. But, it was this "growth story'', which made "certain elements jealous'', she said referring to 26/11 and the various terror attacks last year. "These elements are responsible for spreading terrorism in the country,'' she added.

She said the nation's patience in the wake of terrorist activities should not be taken as its weakness. "We are fully capable of giving them a befitting reply.''

At Khanpur Kalan in Haryana's Sonepat district, Sonia laid the foundation stone for a medical college at the first women university in north India. The medical college in Bhagat Phool Singh Mahila Vishwavidyalay will be built in 100 acres in two years.

An enthusiastic Sonia claimed that India had succeeded in warding off the effects of global economic recession because the country's economy rested on a strong base. "The visionary approach of former leaders like Rajiv Gandhi and Indira Gandhi had laid a solid foundation of economy.''

Clearly we cannot declare both diplomats winners. One had to be looser.
I say Zardari emerged as a brilliant looser from the day one.
I appreciate the President of Pakistan that his brain could not apprehend the basic fact that to reach any conclusion one needs investigation and to do investigation time is required and by no means arrested in Pakistan immediately after indian demands were involved in Mumbai and neither was their any need to not oppose indian allegations in UN. apparently which matters most was swolled without any noise.
If according to Malik terror camps are inside Pakistan than obviously it is like showing red to the bull without any inquiry or grounds.
If there are any camps than where is army and police of Pakistan?
Or perhaps Zardari and Malik knows some thing which security agencies don't know?

 

[BATMAN]

Does China love Pakistan?

Sorry for the delay on this, but did anyone else notice that Pakistan's president, Asif Ali Zardari, was in China last week?

Over four days, he went to Hubei, had a look at the Three Gorges Dam and visited Shanghai. I'll forgive anyone who didn't spot him, however, since his trip was totally eclipsed by the arrival of Hillary Clinton.



It was Zardari's second trip in just five months, and he has promised to come back to China every three months. To India's irritation, Pakistan has jumped into bed with China with gusto.

Zardari wrote a fawning editorial in the China Daily to mark his visit, exalting the Sino-Pakistan relationship as "higher than the peaks of the Himalayas" and paying tribute to China as "shining star" on the world stage thanks to the "sound management" of the Communist Party.

He offered up Pakistan's ports, Karachi, Port Qasim and Gwadar (which the Chinese built) to Chinese ships and said that Pakistan could "help channel energy supplies from the Gulf to China".

Pakistan has even laid down and asked the Chinese to intercede in its negotiations with India over the Mumbai bombings, a move that left Indian politicians spitting mad.

But the Chinese side seems a little less enamoured. The highest official available to speak to Mr Zardari was a member of the State Council, Dai Bingguo, who is relatively senior, but not the sort of figure the Chinese would normally trot out for a head-of-state.

Zardari glumly admitted on his trip that his country "has not benefited to the extent it should from its relations with China".

And while China is splashing money around Africa and South America, it hasn't given Zardari huge sums. Pakistan needs around $14 billion to get its bankrupt economy back on its feet, but China has only coughed up a $500 million loan and told Pakistan to go to the IMF.

In fact, the Communist Party is apparently doing business with Zardari's enemies, the Pakistani Islamic party Jamaat-e-Islami. The Chinese have agreed with JI that it won't help any terrorists to attack China in Xinjiang, the far-western province.