Zaid Hamid versus Marvi Sirmed on Najam Sethi's show

[toxic_pus]

I think by deciding to stay in Pakistan in 1947 they have already shown their allegiance to Pakistan directly and to two nation theory on which Pakistan is established indirectly. They had the choice to reject Pakistan and two nation theory by moving to Bharat like many others, which they didn't. End of story??

Don't you think you came up with a stupid question to negate two nation theory. I think Pakistani minorities already made their choice way back in 1947 and we who support two nation theory respect their choice and decision.

The minorities stayed back primarily because they were unable to move to 'Bharat', and probably because of the faith they had in Jinnah. Their staying back doesn't prove that they 'supported' TNT.

EDIT: One would imagine that TNT was trashed in 1971, but....well...whatever.

 

[Areesh]

The minorities stayed back primarily because they were unable to move to 'Bharat', and probably because of the faith they had in Jinnah. Their staying back doesn't prove that they 'supported' TNT.

EDIT: One would imagine that TNT was trashed in 1971, but....well...whatever.

Doesn't change the fact that they knew about the basis of the country they were choosing as their home. They had in faith in Jinnah despite knowing what Jinnah believe about TNT. Clears the issue I guess.

EDIT: One would imagine that TNT was trashed in 1971, but....well...whatever

No it didn't. And yeah whatever.

 

[harpoon]

No it didn't. And yeah whatever.

By 1971, more Muslims were living outside Pakistan in SA. So TNT failed miserably in 1971.Also 1971 proved that Islam is not a strong enough reason for a group of people to stay together and ethnicity always triumphs over religion.

 

[Areesh]

By 1971, more Muslims were living outside Pakistan in SA. So TNT failed miserably in 1971.Also 1971 proved that Islam is not a strong enough reason for a group of people to stay together and ethnicity always triumphs over religion.

No it didn't. I don't know from where you get this idea their are many other examples where religion triumphed over ethnicity. Bangladesh itself is one such example. After the independence they didn't join the Hindu Indian bengal to form a separate country or merge in india as one state.

 

[harpoon]

No it didn't. I don't know from where you get this idea their are many other examples where religion triumphed over ethnicity. Bangladesh itself is one such example. After the independence they didn't join the Hindu Indian bengal to form a separate country or merge in india as one state.

Well its their choice, same as Nepal eventhough a Hindu majority country did not merged with India eventhough India is also home to considerable Nepali population especially Gorkhas, but its still is a fact that by 1971 majority of Muslims in former British Indiawere living outside Pakistan and not inside Pakistan which was formed in the name of Islam.

 

[Areesh]

Well its their choice, same as Nepal eventhough a Hindu majority country did not merged with India eventhough India is also home to considerable Nepali population especially Gorkhas, but its still is a fact that by 1971 majority of Muslims in India were living outside Pakistan and not inside Pakistan which was formed in the name of Islam.

I know it is their choice and the reason behind this choice is again the same. As I said their are many other instances in history where ethnicity clearly lost to religion. Just because more muslims live outside Pakistan doesn't negate TNT.

 

[MM_Haider]

there exists only two nation theory in the world.. one nation is Muslim and others is Non-Muslims altogether.. all the crusades were fought based on this two nation theory. Turkey is not being given the EU status because of two nation theory..Pakistan was created because of Two Nation theory (if it wasn't so why Millions of Muslims migrated to pakistan in 1947and the situation of today's Muslim in India, everyone knows?), Israel's creation is also based on two nation theory!!

whoever disagrees with two nation theory doesn't neccesarily have the problem with it but for sure he/ she has problem with Islam, like this Marvi Auntee.

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

No it didn't. I don't know from where you get this idea their are many other examples where religion triumphed over ethnicity. Bangladesh itself is one such example. After the independence they didn't join the Hindu Indian bengal to form a separate country or merge in india as one state.

Bangladeshis didn't join India as they wanted a bengali and muslim majority country neither of which India was. the religion was just one part of their decision , ethnicity was another .

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

there exists only two nation theory in the world.. one nation is Muslim and others is Non-Muslims altogether.. all the crusades were fought based on this two nation theory. Turkey is not being given the EU status because of two nation theory..Pakistan was created because of Two Nation theory (if it wasn't so why Millions of Muslims migrated to pakistan in 1947and the situation of today's Muslim in India, everyone knows?), Israel's creation is also based on two nation theory!!

whoever disagrees with two nation theory doesn't neccesarily have the problem with it but for sure he/ she has problem with Islam, like this Marvi Auntee.

lets no go here ,the debate will take an ugly turn. Relax . Care about the conditions of muslims and non-muslims in your country first .

 

[harpoon]

I know it is their choice and the reason behind this choice is again the same. As I said their are many other instances in history where ethnicity clearly lost to religion. Just because more muslims live outside Pakistan doesn't negate TNT.

Can you give me some examples (As I am ignorant in this issue), but 1971 Bangladesh War, Iran-Iraq war,current problems in Karachi, Darfur, the 2008 action against North Indians in Mumbai etc are all examples of ethinicity truimping over religion as the parties in both sides were following the same religion.

Pakistan was formed on the basis that Hindus & Muslims cannot live together, but by 1971 it was clear that even Muslims cannot live together. So TNT failed by 1971.

 

[Areesh]

Bangladeshis didn't join India as they wanted a bengali and muslim majority country neither of which India was. the religion was just one part of their decision , ethnicity was another .

So religion was indeed part of their decision. Sums up the story I guess and their goes your claim about TNT and 1971 down the drain.

---------- Post added at 02:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:58 PM ----------

Can you give me some examples (As I am ignorant in this issue), but 1971 Bangladesh War, Iran-Iraq war,current problems in Karachi, Darfur, the 2008 action against North Indians in Mumbai etc are all examples of ethinicity truimping over religion as the parties in both sides were following the same religion.

Pakistan was formed on the basis that Hindus & Muslims cannot live together, but by 1971 it was clear that even Muslims cannot live together. So TNT failed by 1971.

OK. Can you tell me what was the exact reason that people from middle east or central asia or South Asia fought against Soviets in Afghan war? They didn't share the same language for sure. Afghanistan wasn't a very famous tourist destination either.

 

[harpoon]

S

OK. Can you tell me what was the exact reason that people from middle east or central asia or South Asia fought against Soviets in Afghan war? They didn't share the same language for sure. Afghanistan wasn't a very famous tourist destination either.

Thats was a global alliance formed to fight a common cause (eventhough they were puppets in the hands of puppeteers who had something else in mind). Pls also don't forget that after their cause is won they trained their guns on each other again on the basis of Tajik, Uzbek, Pashtun ethinicity.

 

[toxic_pus]

Doesn't change the fact that they knew about the basis of the country they were choosing as their home. They had in faith in Jinnah despite knowing what Jinnah believe about TNT. Clears the issue I guess.

The point that I had made earlier, and which you have missed entirely, is that the majority of minorities didn't exactly choose to stay in Pakistan. They were simply unable, primarily for economic reasons, to move from Pakistan and hence had to have confidence in Jinnah.

Anyway.

Whether Jinnah believed in TNT is debatable. If he did, then he was pretending on 11th Aug, 1947 to be secular. If he was true on 11th Aug, 1947, then he was pretending to believe TNT for political maneuvering. Take a pick.

No it didn't. And yeah whatever.

The crux of TNT is that all Muslims of South Asia formed a single nation. Bengalis, by choosing to go separately from this Muslim nation i.e. Pakistan, entirely for ethnopolitical reasons, proved that Muslims of South Asia were not a single nation. Whether or not they decided to join 'Hindu' India or remain independent is irrelevant.

So yes, 1971 did trash TNT. And the Baluchi movement continues to poke hole in that absurd theory.

 

[Areesh]

Thats was a global alliance formed to fight a common cause (eventhough they were puppets in the hands of puppeteers who had something else in mind). Pls also don't forget that after their cause is won they trained their guns on each other again on the basis of Tajik, Uzbek, Pashtun ethinicity.

I know that was a global alliance. By why was the alliance formed?

As far as civil war is concerned it is also because of the same puppet game you mentioned. Some supported northern alliance and some supported Pashtuns for their strategic benefits. Where does that prove that the alliance was not formed on the bases of religion despite ethnic differences.

 

[Areesh]

They were simply unable, primarily for economic reasons, to move from Pakistan and hence had to have confidence in Jinnah.

Well I know examples of such minorities who had enough economic resources to move from Pakistan to Bharat. That includes Christian, Hindus, Parsis etc etc.

Whether Jinnah believed in TNT is debatable. If he did, then he was pretending on 11th Aug, 1947 to be secular.

Can you show me that part of this 11 September speech which says Hindus and Muslim are one nation. Thanks in advance.

Bengalis, by choosing to go separately from this Muslim nation i.e. Pakistan, entirely for ethnopolitical reasons, proved that Muslims of South Asia were not a single nation.

Bengalis as I said didn't join Hindu India or most probably Hindu Indian bengal as well. It is more of the case of political differences that they had with west pakistan than invalidity of TNT. Or else they also considered and consider even now that hindus and muslims are two seperate nations.

And the Baluchi movement continues to poke hole in that absurd theory

Ah I knew it Baluchistan is going to come in here.

Anyways can you show me any statement from those Baluch nationalists that Hindus and Muslims are one nation.

By the way by looking at your perspective it looks like if someone(who would definitely be a muslim) snatch my cell phone and you would come with the rant. See this snatching disapproves TNT.