Your Prime Minister`s wife does not trust you, gets her security from Italians

[janon]

i did't make up any thing. this case is initially investigated by kerala police. if you check the news you can see that. MMS break his silence days after the italian gov's statement. and the kerala congress was has a great pressure from opposition party and from the people of Kerala. the media's prime focus was on this.

you can check this if you have any contact to the police officers who initially investigate this case.

Your first claim here was that the marines are currently in Italy, and that the kerala police have to investigate them online. That kind of shows how misinformed you were.

The whole marines saga was reported here on PDF last year when it happened, and there is a 30+ page thread on that, where many of us including me had commented and analysed the issue as it unfolded.

You are completely and utterly misinformed, and now you are making up stuff. Your statements like " MMS break his silence days after the italian gov's statement. " and so on prove that. Which statement of the italian govt are you referring to?

As I said, this issue as analysed in detail here on PDF for months, please check that thread before commenting. Some of us are a lot more informed on this issue than you are, and don't need to make up stories of "friends in high places" feeding us secret info. I myself had written a detailed para on the nuances of diplomatic immunity for the ambassador. Before the marines were returned.

You started off saying the marines are in italy and kerala police speaks to them "through online". All because of Sonia gandhi. It is unfortunate that our citizens can be so misinformed, not simply about current affairs, but also the nature of govt, and politics - as if sonia gandhi can make such a thing happen even if she wanted to.

Civic illiteracy.

 

[hkdas]

if my wife dint trust me she woudnt have married me.

YOu Indians on PDF and many in opposition in India say Sonia works for Italian interests.
But what Italy has gained can you guys tell us?

india didn't have much diplomatic, political, military relation with italy at that time. after sonia came to india there is economic, military and diplomatic relation with italy. sending spg for training to italy is a good business for italy and they also train these commandos with their weapons so they prefer that weapon in india. BSF use Italian made weapons(which is not a good weapon). they will get many benefits by bringing India closer to Italy.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Modemji works only for her own( and co)'s interest. Think about it. For pursuing power the lady did not shirk giving up every bit of Italian-ness ( in appearance that is )

if my wife dint trust me she woudnt have married me.

YOu Indians on PDF and many in opposition in India say Sonia works for Italian interests.
But what Italy has gained can you guys tell us?

 

[hkdas]

Your first claim here was that the marines are currently in Italy, and that the kerala police have to investigate them online. That kind of shows how misinformed you were.

The whole marines saga was reported here on PDF last year when it happened, and there is a 30+ page thread on that, where many of us including me had commented and analysed the issue as it unfolded.

You are completely and utterly misinformed, and now you are making up stuff. Your statements like " MMS break his silence days after the italian gov's statement. " and so on prove that. Which statement of the italian govt are you referring to?

As I said, this issue as analysed in detail here on PDF for months, please check that thread before commenting. Some of us are a lot more informed on this issue than you are, and don't need to make up stories of "friends in high places" feeding us secret info. I myself had written a detailed para on the nuances of diplomatic immunity for the ambassador. Before the marines were returned.

You started off saying the marines are in italy and kerala police speaks to them "through online". All because of Sonia gandhi. It is unfortunate that our citizens can be so misinformed, not simply about current affairs, but also the nature of govt, and politics - as if sonia gandhi can make such a thing happen even if she wanted to.

Civic illiteracy.

i told you from were i got this information

marines are told to return to india the italian gov. had said that they won't send marines back to india. only days after what Italians said that, india put pressure on italy by saying that if they don't send marines back it will affect the indo-italy relation. you don't know the presure faced by kerala congress from the opposition party and the media. sonia can't ignore their men only because this the manmohan and sonia put the pressure on italy to bring back the marines back.

do you reaaly think that the GoI will put presure on italy to bring back the marines to india if there was no media and political pressure from kerala??

if you think that sonia is clean then you must read this:
Secret Swiss Billions of Sonia And Rahul Gandhi --- Gurumurthhy · Causes
this news was also in indian express, but i didn't find the link now in google.

 

[janon]

i told you from were i got this information

marines are told to return to india the italian gov. had said that they won't send marines back to india. only days after what Italians said that, india put pressure on italy by saying that if they don't send marines back it will affect the indo-italy relation. you don't know the presure faced by kerala congress from the opposition party and the media. sonia can't ignore their men only because this the manmohan and sonia put the pressure on italy to bring back the marines back.

do you reaaly think that the GoI will put presure on italy to bring back the marines to india if there was no media and political pressure from kerala??

if you think that sonia is clean then you must read this:
Secret Swiss Billions of Sonia And Rahul Gandhi --- Gurumurthhy · Causes
this news was also in indian express, but i didn't find the link now in google.

Yes, apparently today many things that would shock the nation are in Indian Express, but mysteriously no links can be found or provided. Probably the Italian mafia stole the links from the internet, so that nobody would read it.

You don't have to tell me how the marines were returned to India after they tried to evade the law, because I already explained that to you earlier in the thread when you were claiming that they are still in Italy. Since you are going on about kerala, I am reminded of a proverb from there, "Do not try to teach Kalari to the master."

In any case, I do not wish to discuss politics on the foum - the level of discourse and critical thinking displayed is abysmally low. Posting conspiracy theories from random websites and pretending that it was published in the Indian express, then saying that no link can be provided, and so on. Or people thinking that India is a monarchy and Sonia is the empress, that she can influence anything happening in India. It is as if posters here do not know about the division of authority in the government, and what governmental arms are responsible for what.

With so much illiteracy about the political process, and about civic institutions, there is no point discussing politics here. I'm sure your response would be another wild conspiracy ridden article "proving" that Rahul gandhi is a secret Italian agent who will steal every Indian's kidneys and sell them on the streets of Italy.

Sorry, but I cannot discuss politics with the politically illiterate.

 

[anjaneyashruti]

@janon

You yourself has provided link to the article about sonia gandhi from gandhiheritage. In that website it is clearly stated that the article was published in the new Indian Express on the 17th April 2004. And the name of the Journalist is S Gurumurthy.

Nothing is hidden. The article gives names, locations and dates along with data that can be collaborated or challenged and also provides reference to the book by a senior most of IAS, cabinet secretary B.G Deshmukh.

Congress had gone out of the way to allow the Italian maries to return to italy for 'christmas'. Not once, but twice. This was an unprecedented action that clearly shows where the loyalties of the congress lay. Never before had any other trial accused in such a serious case of national importance given such privileges. In fact, they marines were provided special houses after they complained that they jail was no comfortable enough for them.

If you look at the comments of the congress ministers after the Italians absconded, it appeared as if they had already given up hope of getting the Italians back.

The congress govt. did not even move to court after the Italian ambassador went back on his promise made to the Supreme court. That was the duty of the govt. of India to do that.

The action by the Supreme court took place only when a Lone Ranger called Dr. Subramaniyan Swamy who was in the opposition filed a petition in the court asking them to step in and prevent the Italian ambassador from leaving the country.

What was the CBI, the public prosecutor, the Attorney General and the Solicitor General doing ? ............are you seriously telling us that they did not know their Job ? ......or is it more likely that they kept quite after receiving instructions from the congress government ?

None so blind as one who choose not to see.

Clearly the level of critical thinking is abysmally low. You are the one to talk.

 

[anjaneyashruti]

Here is a example of how the sonia gandhi inspired foreign agents like Quattrochi and Wolfgang Richard Max has now taken roots in India. As usual spies and similar agents have no particular loyalties to people, even to those who they appear to be close.

DNA Special: VVIP chopper scam middleman's father spied on Sonia Gandhi - India - DNA

Wolfgang, father of Christian Michel - the alleged a middleman in the Rs3,760-crore VVIP chopper scam, was a prominent businessman who had deep links with the Congress Party and the Indian intelligence.

Christian Michel, allegedly a middleman in the Rs3,760-crore VVIP chopper scam, inherited the bulk of his business and contacts from his father Wolfgang — a prominent businessman who had deep links with the Congress Party and the Indian intelligence in the 1980s and 1990s.

In fact, during the PV Narasimha Rao regime, Wolfgang was asked to gather political intelligence on Congress president Sonia Gandhi when she visited London.

Wolfgang, it is believed, was also in the arms business and was so resourceful that Indian intelligence identified him nearly three decades ago as a “valuable asset”. He was first “raised” by Gary Saxena, who later headed India’s external intelligence agency, R&AW.

Wolfgang, also known in Indian circles as “Walters”, met several top functionaries of the Congress, including those close to Indira Gandhi.

He was popular in the party and would usually meet them under his pseudonym. He proved to be a big asset to the Indian intelligence as well. Indian intelligence officials posted abroad handled his passport and he got preferential treatment whenever he was in New Delhi.

In the 1980s and the 1990s, he tracked arms deals being struck by Pakistan and passed on valuable inputs to his contacts in the Indian intelligence.

In the early 1990s, then prime minister PV Narsimha Rao was nervous about the emergence of Sonia Gandhi as a power centre within the party. He would track her constantly and as soon as she announced a trip to the United Kingdom, the external intelligence agency R&AW was tasked with finding out details. It was left to Wolfgang to use his contacts to find out where she was and who she met, according to top sources in the government.

Wolfgang helped his son Christian, born in 1961, establish himself in the murky world of international dealings that also involved the arms business. His contacts in India was transferred to Christian, who started using them to facilitate business deals in India.

But a few years after establishing himself, he turned against his father and completely deprived him of the controls of their business. Betrayed by his son, Wolfgang became a virtual recluse while his son continued to grow from strength to strength.

Christian’s name figured prominently along with Italian businessmen Guido Ralph Haschke as the two alleged arms dealers. Both were allegedly paid 30 million Euros (about Rs217 crore) to facilitate this deal.

 

[janon]

@janon

You yourself has provided link to the article about sonia gandhi from gandhiheritage. In that website it is clearly stated that the article was published in the new Indian Express on the 17th April 2004. And the name of the Journalist is S Gurumurthy.

Yea, the website says so, but they don't give a link to the story in IE. And neither can anybody else. That is why that website and the article lacks credibility.

Some day you will realize that not everything you read on the internet is true, even if they give names and dates. Hope that day will come soon for you.

By the way, since you seem to believe it if it appears on a website, there is a marble building in Agra that I would be willing to sell you for a bargain price. It's very beautiful, with domes and spires, and the Yamuna placidly flowing nearby.

 

[anjaneyashruti]

Yea, the website says so, but they don't give a link to the story in IE. And neither can anybody else. That is why that website and the article lacks credibility.

Some day you will realize that not everything you read on the internet is true, even if they give names and dates. Hope that day will come soon for you.

By the way, since you seem to believe it if it appears on a website, there is a marble building in Agra that I would be willing to sell you for a bargain price. It's very beautiful, with domes and spires, and the Yamuna placidly flowing nearby.

If Indian Express does not have a archive section for public consumption how is it S Gurumurthy fault. He is a very well know Journalist who has stuck his neck out and has republished his earlier expose. Clearly you will admit S Gurumurthy has more credibility than you advertising for the sale of Taj.

If you are unable to admit to this very simple fact then you are just unwilling to accept reality for what it is.

I believe it because I remember reading this article long back in the news and I also remember the article not being challenged either.

Dismissing the credibility of a well know and must respected Journalist like S Gurumurthy just because you do not like what he says is just sad. Maybe you need to learn a lesson or two in facing facts.

 

[janon]

If Indian Express does not have a archive section for public consumption how is it S Gurumurthy fault. He is a very well know Journalist who has stuck his neck out and has republished his earlier expose. Clearly you will admit S Gurumurthy has more credibility than you advertising for the sale of Taj.

If you are unable to admit to this very simple fact then you are just unwilling to accept reality for what it is.

I believe it because I remember reading this article long back in the news and I also remember the article not being challenged either.

Dismissing the credibility of a well know and must respected Journalist like S Gurumurthy just because you do not like what he says is just sad. Maybe you need to learn a lesson or two in facing facts.

Well extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - or any sort of evidence, to be charitable. Claims like SPG commandoes being slapped by Italian trainers is quite extraoridnary, and unheard of from any other source. Unless he presents evidence, his claims are just that - claims. You accused me of not knowing critical thinking, but here you are committing the very basic logical fallacy of evaluating claims on the basis of your worship of the man, instead of evaluating on the basis of evidence.

There is no way anybody should take these claims at face value, unless accompanied by substantiating evidence.

 

[anjaneyashruti]

Well extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - or any sort of evidence, to be charitable. Claims like SPG commandoes being slapped by Italian trainers is quite extraoridnary, and unheard of from any other source. Unless he presents evidence, his claims are just that - claims. You accused me of not knowing critical thinking, but here you are committing the very basic logical fallacy of evaluating claims on the basis of your worship of the man, instead of evaluating on the basis of evidence.

There is no way anybody should take these claims at face value, unless accompanied by substantiating evidence.

By that same logic, no newspaper report can be taken as proof since they do not provide any evidence. Only claims to having evidence. Same as the claim by S Gurumurthy

You find report of SPG commando's being slapped by Italian trainers extraordinary ? Why ? Just because you are unable to digest such insults ? or because you just do not want to believe it ?

The making of an NSG commando - Times Of India

......."They are among the top ranking anti-insurgency groups in the world, their training standard and physical fitness is among the best. The physical standards of military and paramilitary forces are really good, imagine taking the cream and training them to be the best,'' said former DG & IGP T Madiyal, who has served in the Special Protection Group (SPG) too.

..........There are exchange programmes with other countries, and everything is about preparing for the worst.

One Italian trainer had a peculiar way of checking the endurance of his boys -- get them beaten up by unknown people and check how much they can endure. Another trainer would make the commandos drink alcohol and shoot in the range -- he wanted to check their accuracy in adverse conditions.

 

[janon]

By that same logic, no newspaper report can be taken as proof since they do not provide any evidence. Only claims to having evidence. Same as the claim by S Gurumurthy

You find report of SPG commando's being slapped by Italian trainers extraordinary ? Why ? Just because you are unable to digest such insults ? or because you just do not want to believe it ?

The making of an NSG commando - Times Of India

......."They are among the top ranking anti-insurgency groups in the world, their training standard and physical fitness is among the best. The physical standards of military and paramilitary forces are really good, imagine taking the cream and training them to be the best,'' said former DG & IGP T Madiyal, who has served in the Special Protection Group (SPG) too.

..........There are exchange programmes with other countries, and everything is about preparing for the worst.

One Italian trainer had a peculiar way of checking the endurance of his boys -- get them beaten up by unknown people and check how much they can endure. Another trainer would make the commandos drink alcohol and shoot in the range -- he wanted to check their accuracy in adverse conditions.

Are you deliberately posting unrelated info, or are you just plain unable to understand the difference between what is happening in the two instances?

The ToI article is about the training of the NSG (not SPG), and enduring physical hardships and maintaining composure is an essential part of training for any commando group. It is common in any military, and is not considered demeaning or humiliating. Check out documentaried or books about SEAL training, or the training of green berets, and the intense physical deprivations and mental torture they have to go through before qualifying. Only those who can think and shoot straight under such conditions can pass.

On the other hand, the OP is talking about a shameful incident of Italians beating our SPG, not as a routine part of training, but as an embarassing incident that we should all fell ashamed of.

 

[anjaneyashruti]

Are you deliberately posting unrelated info, or are you just plain unable to understand the difference between what is happening in the two instances?

The ToI article is about the training of the NSG (not SPG), and enduring physical hardships and maintaining composure is an essential part of training for any commando group. It is common in any military, and is not considered demeaning or humiliating. Check out documentaried or books about SEAL training, or the training of green berets, and the intense physical deprivations and mental torture they have to go through before qualifying. Only those who can think and shoot straight under such conditions can pass.

On the other hand, the OP is talking about a shameful incident of Italians beating our SPG, not as a routine part of training, but as an embarassing incident that we should all fell ashamed of.

I knew you would come back with such an inane reply.

SPG and NSG have similar roles. SPG protects PM and sonia, NSG protects other VIP's like NaMo.

Both the articles clearly establishes that slapping and beatings seem to be part of Italian trainers culture. Slapping in Indian culture is a very serious insult.

Navy SEALS on the other hand are not protection force like SPG or NSG but a commando force trained for Insertion and Extraction with risk of possible capture, torture and escape.

 

[janon]

I knew you would come back with such an inane reply.

SPG and NSG have similar roles. SPG protects PM and sonia, NSG protects other VIP's like NaMo.

Both the articles clearly establishes that slapping and beatings seem to be part of Italian trainers culture. Slapping in Indian culture is a very serious insult.

Navy SEALS on the other hand are not protection force like SPG or NSG but a commando force trained for Insertion and Extraction with risk of possible capture, torture and escape.

Oh my dear. I don't know where to begin. You really think the NSG is a bodyguarding agency like the SPG?

Please read about the special action group of the NSG, and their special ranger group. It is the latter that protects VIPs. The SAG is a counter terrorist force drawn up from the Indian army. The SRG is the bodyguarding agency drawn up from paramilitary and police forces. It is the SAG that getss trained by foreign commando forces in Israel and Italy and Russia.

In fact the NSG was initially only supposed to be a CT force, and bodyguarding duties were added only later, and they are not happy with it. Hopefully, soon they will be relieved of that duty. Please read the charter of the NSG (passed by a parliamentary act in the wake of operation blue star), and the reason why they were formed in the first place.

Anyway, the ones who go abroad for training are the SAG, not the SRG. They do not protect any dignitaries, their job is counter terrorism, direct action, counter hijack etc.

To be even more specific, the 52 SAG is trained for counter hijacking, and 51 SAG is the offensive arm of the NSG. The SRG on the other hand are the ones you see protecting Modi or Mayawati, and they are drawn from state and central police forces, not the Indian army.

The 51 SAG cross trains with the spetznaz, GSG, FBI-HRT etc. The ones who protect politicians don't get such training.

51 Special Action Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Funny that you should call my reply inane, and then go on to display such staggering ignorance about the premier CT force in India, and think that they are solely for bodyguarding duties.

 

[Spring Onion]

india didn't have much diplomatic, political, military relation with italy at that time. after sonia came to india there is economic, military and diplomatic relation with italy. sending spg for training to italy is a good business for italy and they also train these commandos with their weapons so they prefer that weapon in india. BSF use Italian made weapons(which is not a good weapon). they will get many benefits by bringing India closer to Italy.

Ok so basically Italy can gain only in weapons' field . Make sense but if the equipment is faulty then I believe your judicial system is active through which the deal can be halted.

besides Sonia Gandhi cant approve it unless the entire structure including the armed forces give a node isn't it?

And your own guards and army have killed more of your politicians than anywhere else. So why arent your politicians opting for foreign security, and a foreign army? What's the big deal?

When our own army killed our own politicians? kindly provide proof.

If my politicians dint opt for foreign guards then it means they are content with own ones. again their wish .

BTW Indira Gandhi was killed nearly 30 years back. In the past three years how many pakistani politicians have been killed by pakistanis?

Indira's killers were gunned down by the rest of her security posse. Salman Tasser's killer just 2 years back, was garlanded by pakistani lawyers, and treated as a hero by society.

People living in glass houses, pot calling kettle black, so many idioms exist in every language for this mentality.

oh my common sense is indeed not so common specially in your case. The debate here is NOT that how many Indians killed by Indians or how many Pakistanis killed by Pakistanis.

The debate is that Sonia Gandhi preferred foreign guards for Indira's security and the assassination of the later at hands of own local guard proves Sonia was NOT wrong