Youm-e-Shuhda 2013

[Argus Panoptes]

Here's the letter

You should send it to all major newspapers, not just Dawn. May be they will publish it.

 

[Jango]

You should send it to all major newspapers, not just Dawn. May be they will publish it.

Will do...it was just that DAWN had published my letters before so I know that they respond on most occasions.

 

[DrNSAID]

All ah seems to have some time on his hands, and if the elections result in the coming to power of those close to TTP ideology - it will of course be the will of Allah?

Allah is with us and the enemy, whose very humanity is suspect, well, someone other than Allah made them? Allah is on the side of the victor, of this we can be sure.

With this Allah business taken care, we can move on to substance:

[B

Ok, this that mean that Pakistan armed Forces do not have "unflinching support of the masses" -- So why fight "your own countrymen" and real Muslims? Gen Kiyani seems not to understand, wars are not won by support of the masses but making the enemy dead.

.

The Duffer chief of the Duffer officer corp is now reduced to begging the enemy to allow it once again to run away so that it may fight another day - So much sacrifice only to once again run away to fight another day, so that it can do what it now knows best to do, to run away.

Message to the Duffer Kiyani: While you still can, make the enemy dead, end this insurrection on the terms f the Pakistani state, it may yet save your duffer officer corps.

Kid, if you want to parade about your Major Kufr, that's your business, but learn not to do it through cheap shots at anothers prerogative. With over 11,000 a'muse'ing posts, I expect that's something you would've got by now.

I will try to make sure that Duffer Kiyani is informed of the fact that in order to not be a Duffer anymore, he should join this forum and amass thousands of posts, where he can truely be called a General, worthy of rank.

 

[Jango]

@Argus Panoptes, sent a letter to Express Tribune and the automated reply said that 'letters sent to Tribune with content which has not been recently discussed in the newspaper will not be considered'!!!

So much for free media, that is how those folks get all the article and letters to tow their line!

 

[muse]

Kid, if you want to parade about your Major Kufr, that's your business, but learn not to do it through cheap shots at anothers prerogative. With over 11,000 a'muse'ing posts, I expect that's something you would've got by now.

I will try to make sure that Duffer Kiyani is informed of the fact that in order to not be a Duffer anymore, he should join this forum and amass thousands of posts, where he can truely be called a General, worthy of rank.

Shut up already, Duffer! and stuff your Kufr where the sun don't shine, along with whatever else your gen Kiyani hiding in his GHQ care to stuff there.
You tell him i said that and he can make a liar out of me by killing the insurrectionists -- tell he has to win to get support, not get support to win

 

[Last Hope]

@nuclearpak

They did not bother publish about the Yaum-e-Shauhada; why do you expect them to publish a complaint about it?
Everyone needs to understand that Pakistan Army and most of Pakistani Politics are crossroads to others. Sympathy with Army would deprive the support for the political parties, of which PPP shall be hurt the most. Anything published in favor of army results in negative campaigning against PPP, since they use the banner of 'Punjabi army taking over rights of Sindhis/Balochis'.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

@Argus Panoptes, sent a letter to Express Tribune and the automated reply said that 'letters sent to Tribune with content which has not been recently discussed in the newspaper will not be considered'!!!

So much for free media, that is how those folks get all the article and letters to tow their line!

The Express Tribune - what do you expect? But please do try Daily Jang too.

 

[muse]

The Express Tribune - what do you expect? But please do try Daily Jang too.

Please don't -- first edit the letter

What is that you want to say in the letter, what's the main point? That we should respect the sacrifices? Are you meaning to imply that we don't ? If yes, how can telling them to respect change things? After all why don't they respect the sacrifices?

 

[Jango]

Are you meaning to imply that we don't ?

Yes, that is the main point.

Not you, but the media and some sections of society.

I thought about expanding the letter, but it would have become a bit too big and these folks don't accept that.

 

[muse]

Yes, that is the main point.

Not you, but the media and some sections of society.

I thought about expanding the letter, but it would have become a bit too big and these folks don't accept that.

This is the substance of my complaints in calling this a Duffer Army --- and I know and understand that it hurts some, but it is better that we get people to think then be empty headed cheer leaders - we must have these duffers confront WHY, how is it that an Armed forces made of our own n is not respected, it's sacrifices disregarded?

See, in a earlier post we advised that this sorry excuse for a general, Kiyani needs to understand the people are scared and they want success, they want to the army to fortify them, instead this duffer wants the people to fortify the army - people say that nothing succeeds like success, Gen. Kiyani and his officer corp should consider this, I mean why not, after all, have they anything else they can claim as success?

Argus's letter bemoans the lack of respect and demands the media ay attention - that's not how things work, succeed, and they will pay attention, show that you are good at killing the enemies of pakistan, and they will pay attention, respect anything you ask for - after all just imagine that yo have an employee, who says that he can do a better job but only if you will pay him what he demands? is this really how the world works?? OR id it thAt when your employee shows you that he or she is good at the job and can be trusted that you raise his or her wages??

 

[Jango]

See, in a earlier post we advised that this sorry excuse for a general, Kiyani needs to understand the people are scared and they want success, they want to the army to fortify them, instead this duffer wants the people to fortify the army - people say that nothing succeeds like success, Gen. Kiyani and his officer corp should consider this, I mean why not, after all, have they anything else they can claim as success?

Both of them should work together, Army and civil side.

Army kay mathay nhn marna...if you are going to do that, then give them a completely free hand to do anything they want and then see what happens.

 

[muse]

Both of them should work together, Army and civil side.

Army kay mathay nhn marna...if you are going to do that, then give them a completely free hand to do anything they want and then see what happens.

Ideally, yes, both should work together, in your experience, what is the opinion of PPP in the Army and that of the Army in the PPP? - but we are not in a ideal world -- Army has a free hand, please be careful of arguments that suggest that the civilians are somehow making thing difficult for the army to kill enemies of the state - The sad truth is that the Army has made a calculation that it will absorb high levels of casualties, military and civilians, to maintain or rather, manage, the insurgency - their calculations are cold, immoral and of a "strategic" nature (Isharaa) -- now of course this is very hard to accept, that such calculations would even be considered - and I hope you will make me a liar - but do you really imagine that I would say such a thing without confidence?

The army can have anything it wants, especially if it creates in the minds and hearts of the public, the idea that the Army is Pakistan's army and that it is a very successful, extremely proficient army - proficient at what? At killing the enemies of the state and nation - that Pakistanis can have assurance that the Army is their protector and not the protector of Lashkar of this and Jaishe of That, and Ahle this and Jammat of that, that Pakistanis can take pride that the Army will kill the enemies of the state and nation -- See, it's a terrible world full of horrible choices, yes, but that is not the totality, the Army has better choices to create positive results -- you will soon see economic growth figures, you should know that Pakistan, with out any govt input grows at between 2.5 to 3.5 percent, and when you see how we have done in the last five years, that is to say we will have missed our most conservative estimate, and to add to this, an Army that refuses to perform? Perhaps now you can better understand why Argus's letter needs to go through the editing process.

 

[Jango]

Ideally, yes, both should work together, in your experience, what is the opinion of PPP in the Army and that of the Army in the PPP?

Quite frankly, I don't really know...there have been rifts, there have been good times as well. COAS was the architect of NRO so evidently the PPP was very accommodating of the Army and COAS. In the early years of the government, things worked and both were pretty happy with each other.

Then around 2010-2011 things got a bit heated up. Raymond Davis affair, missing person, OBL, terrorist convictions, politics and general ineptness of the civilian government started to get on the nerves of some people in the Army and COAS came under some pressure.

That is why some parts of the Youm-e-Shuhada speech are very important, the COAS implied that dictatorship will be at bay if the civilian government does it's job. This is a sign of frustration.

- but we are not in a ideal world -- Army has a free hand, please be careful of arguments that suggest that the civilians are somehow making thing difficult for the army to kill enemies of the state

They aren't making things difficult, but they aren't really helpful either. They don't give a damn to what happens to this country. This sentiment has been shared by the COAS as well, PPP does absolutely nothing for the terror activities.

- The sad truth is that the Army has made a calculation that it will absorb high levels of casualties, military and civilians, to maintain or rather, manage, the insurgency - their calculations are cold, immoral and of a "strategic" nature (Isharaa) -- now of course this is very hard to accept, that such calculations would even be considered - and I hope you will make me a liar - but do you really imagine that I would say such a thing without confidence?

I agree with this in a way.

In the end, my point is that you cannot expect the army to go on a killing spree. Just look at how much divided the opinion is on NW operation.

 

[Jango]

Perhaps now you can better understand why Argus's letter needs to go through the editing process.

That wasn't Argus's letter, it was mine to highlight lack of media coverage.

As for the newly added part, I agree with you, but all these outcomes are result of a policy of 30 years back...not the outcome of the policies of the current 'duffer' officer corps.

The current officer corp is very much different to the ones of previous times, they have that jazba of Muslim and all that stuff, but they are much more Pakistan oriented that before IMO. They are very eager to root out this menace.

The previous officer corp was taught to deal with India as the enemy, they were taught next to nothing in COIN ops inside your own country. The current corp is taught COIN ops and damage control and stuff like that, so the current corp is more capable to handle this situation IMO, they are more aware of the problems and their solutions than the previous ones.

They are being taught to see TTP as the enemy along with India.

 

[muse]

They aren't making things difficult, but they aren't really helpful either. They don't give a damn to what happens to this country. This sentiment has been shared by the COAS as well, PPP does absolutely nothing for the terror activities.

In the end, my point is that you cannot expect the army to go on a killing spree. Just look at how much divided the opinion is on NW operation.

It is not true that Civilians in governance don't care - allow me to explain, as I did to so others elsewhere -- The civilians are crooks, they steal because they think it would be IMMORAL to not steal - yes, think about that, that it would be IMMORAL to not steal - see these people are making a bet, the bet is that things in Pakistan will not improve, and therefore for their families and for themselves, it is moral to steal, to stash away as much as they can before the whole thing collapses.

I realize you may be very busy, but please read "Logic of Collective Action" by Dr. Mancur Olson - and in that light let me ask you what happens when any person wants to start a business, to provide a service and generate costs and profits? Most of the world see it as a risky enterprise, they point out the many failures, however, when the business succeeds, well, then those who created the business are celebrated as geniuses, as humanitarians who provide opportunity for labor and creation of wealth - what can we learn from this? how is this relevant? You will see it on this forum many times, the saying that "It's not the size of the Dog in the Fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog" ---- A passionate committed minority will always succeed over an apathetic, divided majority -- So please do not be so overwhelmed by those who say there is much division over operations in NW - these nay sayers are "created" due to the "strategic" concerns we mentioned earlier - because NW is Pakistan, are we really arguing whether we will allow NW to be cut off from Pakistan??