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Yes We love you too

Feel sorry for your such thinking.

The thread did got derailed not because it was posted by an Indian Muslim, rather it got derailed by the views expressed in the posted article. We damn care and should damn care about the Indian Muslims in India, except for Kashmir, as those want to join Pakistan or wish to become independent from Indian occupation.

The thread got derailed by the superiority complex shown by the Indian in that article.

Indian Muslims should do whatever they want, and yeah control the very few Indian Muslims who are helping out the LeT, as without them LeT will not be successful in achieving their objectives and make things worse for the Indian Muslims and for us too.

Nothing succeeds without Internal help.

Thats an interesting assertion, the thread was derailed by the original article itself :)

May be post no 18 and followup posts from the same guy calling indian muslims munafiq etc had nothing to do with the derailment.

I'm stumped, you got me there :)
 
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Thats an interesting assertion, the thread was derailed by the original article itself :)

May be post no 18 and followup posts from the same guy calling indian muslims munafiq etc had nothing to do with the derailment.

I'm stumped, you got me there :)

Kindly, look at the concern and superiority complex being shown in the original article. Such kind of comments by the author do ask for comments presented in Post# 18 and other ones.

The article got posted not for just reading, rather debating, so in debating the concept shown in the original article do get counter arguments, if you wanna call them derailment, fine. Its your dictionary to see into, but don't force that dictionary upon others too.
 
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Ohhhhh, How really beautiful words. Pakistan faced with such dificuilties!!!!

The wrong-ness of this sentences, Pakistanis against all odds, against foreign influences supporting both military and civilian dictators. Pakistanis understand the meaning of democracy just makes me go ........ If "Pakistanis understand the meaning of democracy then why even let there be a military rule or a TAKE OVER!!!!, Why there was not an Outrage from the genarale public. BECAUSE there was really no Democracy set in the first place.

Thanks Asim you really make sense from the Indian side atleast!!!

Your theatrics aside, the bits and pieces I CAN respond to are below:

Nobody allows there to be a military takeover. IF you think there was no outrage against dictatorships you must've been sleeping during the Long March struggle. People have been caned, beaten up, jailed and shot to achieve democracy.

The difference being that as bad as Zardari is today, the military hasn't even made a peep about takeover.

All the while Musharraf's illegal actions had US support, envoy after envoy was flying to Pakistan from America to somehow make peace for Musharraf. That's what I mean by foreigners impeding democracy in Pakistan.

In Pakistan, Pakistanis themselves have earned democracy. Without any supremacists help.
 
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Thats an interesting assertion, the thread was derailed by the original article itself :)

May be post no 18 and followup posts from the same guy calling indian muslims munafiq etc had nothing to do with the derailment.

I'm stumped, you got me there :)
Put it this way, the comments in the first post of this thread, warranted it getting the severe beating up/down/left/right that it has gotten.

As I said, whenever superioriority complexed people talk this way the only recourse is to bring them down to their actual level. Their aukaad.
 
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Your theatrics aside, the bits and pieces I CAN respond to are below:

Nobody allows there to be a military takeover. IF you think there was no outrage against dictatorships you must've been sleeping during the Long March struggle. People have been caned, beaten up, jailed and shot to achieve democracy.

The difference being that as bad as Zardari is today, the military hasn't even made a peep about takeover.

All the while Musharraf's illegal actions had US support, envoy after envoy was flying to Pakistan from America to somehow make peace for Musharraf. That's what I mean by foreigners impeding democracy in Pakistan.

In Pakistan, Pakistanis themselves have earned democracy. Without any supremacists help.

Yet Musharraf ruled for almost 8 years, and there was no peep from local public!!!

Give me a break!!! Democracy really works in Pakistan...
 
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Yet Musharraf ruled for almost 8 years, and there was no peep from local public!!!

Give me a break!!! Democracy really works in Pakistan...

Thanks to Musharraf , Pakistan got free media and local bodies.
Democracy at grass root
 
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@Blackhood

The topic had nothing to do with religion but you had to drag that in anyway. You might not have meant your post to be offensive but it was.

Do you think that supporting GoP or some overzealous elements in their security establishment have anything to do with Islam or muslims? Allah will not ask you at the day of judgment wether you are Pakistani or you supported them before sending you to Jannah.

One of the things that you will be asked is wether you upheld your treaties as a nation. There is a hadith of the prophet Muhammed SAW which says that the nation that does not uphold its treaties honestly will be break into parts. Its a continuation of the importance of honesty given in Islam. Covert war therefore has no sanction in Islam, so Kargil and operation Gibraltar type operations are a big no no. You should revoke your treaty publicly and then declare war. Remember that GoP has signed an LoC treaty that is to be honored.

Do you know that J&K infantry rifles consists of locals? That the J&K police is 70% muslim? That the SOG special forces consists of locals and ex-militants who want to get rid of these terrorists?

The munafiqs are those who are duplicitous in nature. While its ok for the PA to attack and get rid of TTP and the like, who claim (rightly or wrongly) to fight the puppet GoP who is under American control why is it wrong for the J&K police and army to fight against the same people who claim that the elected govt. of J&K is an "Indian puppet". Or why is it wrong for the ANA and NATO forces to fight the Afghan Taliban who want have the same end goal as TTP or HUJI/LeT in Kashmir - to establish a "so called sharia state" - and claim to fight the "puppet GoAfghanistan".

I guess fate has created a situation to make the Pakistani public understand who is being duplicitous. It is probably in all three cases, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Kashmir; either the so called "mujahideen" groups are wrong (which they are ofcourse), or they are right.

Atleast TTP type groups aren't being munafiqs in this sense as they are using the same logic (wrongly ofcourse) as was taught to them when fighting in Afghanistan or Kashmir.

The vocal section clamoring for independence of Kashmir can't do that on basis of Muslim card as pointed out nicely by the current KNP spokesman who is of Pakistani Kashmiri origin- Shabbir Choudary here , nor on the basis of UN resolutions of which Pakistan was a party.

They can only accede to either India or Pakistan. Again there is no Jihad or Quranic sanction for this, it is just the will of the people and hopefully that will be heard if only we can stop militants threatening to shoot any Hurriyet leader who wants to talk to GoI and resolve in a peaceful way. See the hypocrisy ?

Yes, Indian muslims have problems, we are not living in paradise and have many legitimate grievances, but GoP has not done anything to help them constructively. If GoP is interested in helping only those muslims who are willing for various circumstances who are interested in only violence against India, then that is not helpful.

Maybe things would have been different if instead of groups like LeT or HUJI, we had Pakistani NGOs helping the poor Indian muslim (or even non-muslim) women and children in literacy health or other fields.

P.S.: Before I get responses saying TTP is not the same groups as Afghan Taliban or LeT or HUJI e.t.c, I want to clarify that operationally of course they are not, but their end goal is the same and hence they are all deviant until and unless they change their end goal of establishing a so called sharia state of their liking and justifying violence and killing of civilians in a cowardly manner to do so.

@topic
Pakistan is a neighbor of India, there is no way around negotiating and bettering relations. In this era of globalization, it is foolish to go for a wall between countries no matter how easy it seems. Maybe a better way would for India to improve relations with other SAARC countries as a prelude of good faith, particularly Nepal and Bangladesh who have/had become a conduit for anti-India activities.

We can only show antipathy to Pakistan at our own risk. Just ignoring Pakistan is like putting your head in the sand. Some things will work, some wont. But thats how realpolitk is.
 
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Yet Musharraf ruled for almost 8 years, and there was no peep from local public!!!

Give me a break!!! Democracy really works in Pakistan...
A few more exclamation marks please...

If you think Musharraf had smooth sailing then you're an ignorant fool. Google is your friend research out the articles.

1. He had to win legitimacy from the SC
2. He had to hold elections... TWICE
3. His Legal Framework Order needed rattification from the elected parliament
4. He had to be elected as President, a had to hold a referrendum
5. He had to make the media Free
6. His attempts to overthrow the CJ were thwarted
7. His unpopularity was broadcasted all over the media (Google is your friend)
8. He was very nearly impeached before he resigned himself

Those are just the very broad highlights, if you're unaware of them, that just means you need to be better educated, we Pakistanis have nothing to prove in that regard.
 
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A few more exclamation marks please...

4. He had to be elected as President, a had to hold a referrendum

Since, we are talking about Pakistanie democracy, I will respond to this...

Addressing the nation by radio and television, the president assured that general elections would be held in a fair and free atmosphere. “It is my commitment with the nation that these elections will be fair and transparent, and all foreign observers who intend to witness them are welcome,” he said.

The president conceded that “certain irregularities” were committed in the referendum and apologized for it. He claimed that the youth, women and business community had supported him. “But I learnt that some people in their carelessness and ignorance performed some unworthy acts. If such is the case...(then) I am aggrieved and feel very sad. I apologize for this. I am particularly sad that my well-wishers who have always been supportive of me, may have found something unpleasant

Polls to be held from Oct 7-11: We won’t initiate war: Musharraf -DAWN - Top Stories; May 28, 2002
 
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Since, we are talking about Pakistanie democracy, I will respond to this...



Polls to be held from Oct 7-11: We won’t initiate war: Musharraf -DAWN - Top Stories; May 28, 2002
See now irregularities are a whole different question. For that and many more irregularities he was forced out of office.

Mind you when he quit, he was a constitutionally and democratically LEGAL President. But the voice of Pakistan spoke, and that wasn't good enough due to the irregularities.

The dance between Musharraf, Democracy and the nation was long, no doubt, but thats what I'm saying that the FOREIGNERS whenever they intervened, intervened in support of Musharraf, not in support of democracy, not in support of Pakistanis.

So thanks but no thanks we'll get our own democracy. Big Brother, India doesn't need to butt in.
 
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Mind you when he quit, he was a constitutionally and democratically LEGAL President. But the voice of Pakistan spoke, and that wasn't good enough due to the irregularities.

I would love to see some proof in this sentence, espcially about being a LEGAL, Infact that will really prove the democratic system that you are talking about in Pakistan!!!

Thanks....
 
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He got legal cover with the referendum, then his LFO was ratified by the parliament and then he was voted as President by Parliament.

These are NOT the examples of democracy I'm giving, these are the things that the Pakistanis forced even a strong man like Musharraf to do in pursuit of democracy. These are the examples of the way we earned democracy against all odds!
 
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He got legal cover with the referendum, then his LFO was ratified by the parliament and then he was voted as President by Parliament.

These are NOT the examples of democracy I'm giving, these are the things that the Pakistanis forced even a strong man like Musharraf to do in pursuit of democracy. These are the examples of the way we earned democracy against all odds!

Thanks..

Since I have really learned today, the true democratic system is really not the true democratic system, but the perception of Pakistanie democractic system is really the democractic system.

Ohh, sorry I have played my theatrics card again....
 
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Why does the Indian Muslims seek help and support these non-state actors, to attack inside India.
You are admonishing the entire community of Indian Muslims because of misdeeds of some bad apples. Every single Muslim from every nook and corner of India, if your logic is to be followed, must bear the burden of a handful few.

And then you will turn your back and lambaste western media for doing exactly what you have done – generalize an entire community because of a few fanatics.
get your own house in order...
Yes, we have 10 million problems that need sorting. One problem though, that we thankfully don’t need to worry about is the export of terrorism and religious fanaticism.
 
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Right, do Indians really believe that? Perhaps with Pakistani help you can stop massacring minorities at a rate of 1 genocide/massacre per 10 years. It's 2010, another massacre is pending.
Keeping with the mood of the thread that a person in glass house shouldn’t pelt stones, may be you should take a long hard look at yourself. 1971 rings a bell?

That record alone – which is dwarfed only by the likes of a certain Hitler and a Pol Pot – is enough for the Pakistanis to not point at others for the next 500 years.
 
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