Xi calls for smaller but more capable army

[xunzi]

U.S. abandoned conscript model for recruitment in its armed forces after the Vietnam War, for more professional volunteer model. Conscripts are low-cost alternatives to well-trained (long-term) professionals.

What do you think the selective service system in the US are for?

This is not war time, and I never said that a conscription policy alone make a military 'unprofessional'. There are many militaries that are professional and have conscription policy. The Israelis for one, and Sweden is talking about returning to mandatory military service in '18.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/sweden-proposes-reintroduction-of-compulsory-military-service-1475101834

What make a military truly unprofessional is composed of many things and believe it -- conscription is the least of those things.

Your PLA is unprofessional in the sense that it does not serves the people but the Party. It is deeply corrupt and equally deeply political. The Pentagon does not say: 'Now we have a Republican President, all members must be monitored to see if everyone obey Republican ideals.' Your PLA say that via the political officers class.

No one is forced to serve in the PLA ? Wrong.

http://www.china.org.cn/china/LegislationsForm2001-2010/2011-02/14/content_21916676.htm

The PLA may recruit and offers incentives to desirable individuals, but if the PLA needs to fulfill a quota, anyone can be compelled into service, peace or war time.

Looks like you do not know your country as well as you think.

Once again, old man kept blabbing nonsense again. Read my POST. I said by law, everyone is to serve if the govt call upon you, that is no different than majority of the country INCLUDING YOUR OWN government. However in practice, the supply on volunteer is so high in the PLA, that no one is force to people to join the PLA.

The PLA is called the "PEOPLE LIBERATION ARMY". If it doesn't serve the people, who does? You are a joke. LOL

You do have a reading comprehension problem. You haven't quoted where I claimed a chaplain is the same as a political officer, because you can't.



Let's quote wiki here, as outside of anecdotes there are few foreign sources on the role of a political officer in the PLA. This is common knowledge for anyone with passing familiarity with the organization of PLA.

"Today the political commissar is largely responsible for administrative tasks such as public relations and counseling, and mainly serves as second-in-command."

He does not have all encompassing jurisdiction. You were told before, that PLA political officers primarily handled people affairs, including some clerical and administrative tasks. You claimed that they inspired fear and loathing among the troops, without any evidence as usual. I told you there tasks were vital, but relatively mundane. As is typical with you, you pressed the point further and insisted that they should be abolished.

Basically, just hot air. I actually did undergo training at Whampoa, and anyone who has undergone training in China would know you are uninformed and full of shit.



Your argument indicates you have little knowledge, let alone understanding of the role of a political officer in the PLA. You like your Hollywood tropes, with a commissar sitting in the back waiting to finger out any dissenter. Reality is much more mundane I assure you.



PDF Chinese are fine. The problem is that you like to cherry pick little facts from the internet about China, and the moment someone actually familiar with the matter comes along, you come out looking like a fool. I'll demonstrate this shortly.



You have no idea what you are talking about.

Here's a rough translation of the Oath of Service in China.

"I am a citizen of the People's Republic of China, in accordance with the law for military service is honorable duty I should, in order to take up the sacred duty of the revolutionary soldier, I declared Oath: love the Chinese Communist Party, love the socialist motherland, love of the Chinese People's Liberation Army, serving the people wholeheartedly. Implement the Party's line, principles, policies, compliance with national laws and regulations, the implementation of the orders, rules and regulations of the army to obey orders. Efforts to learn the military, political, scientific, cultural, and combat ability to care for weaponry, safeguard military secrets, carry forward the fine traditions to participate in the socialist spiritual civilization of intangible cultural courage to fight against the same abuses. Heroic fighting, fear no sacrifice to defend the socialist motherland, safeguard the people's peaceful labor, and in any case never betray the motherland. Above oath, I am determined to fulfill, and never contrary."

As part of our service, we do swear to serve and protect the people, this is stated explicitly during the oath. This is also repeatedly emphasized during indoctrination, by your much maligned political officers. This isn't just idle talk. Contrast the excellent work done by the PLA during the Sichuan earthquake, with the apathetic response to Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans.

Your claim that the PLA serves the party, but not the people, is just a typical ideological rant from an uninformed outsider.

Evacuation of Chinese nationals from Yemen.

http://dailysignal.com/2015/04/14/china-not-america-rescues-its-own-citizens-stuck-in-yemen/



You see, this is the type of mental gymnastics you engage in. Corruption cases in the PLA are "systematic and endemic". Corruption and misconduct in the US military is "isolated criminality". I called you out before for double standards, you haven't learned a thing.

I'm done with you.

That old man @gambit has dementia. You can say one thing and he goes on about someone else random trying to pick any small random flaw to pain a bigger picture to fit his stereotypical view of his limited knowledge. That is the main issue with people with dementia. LOL This practice is in fact common among American old population.

 

[royalharris]

The most important thing, greatly increase the nuclear power, even if not the same quantity, at least at the same level with usa

 

[Dungeness]

@gambit , just admit you've got owned by a newbie, again. I've told you to stick to military hardware which you seem to have some qualifications. Keep quibbling just for the sake of it would make you look uninformed or worse, dishonest.

It is time for a Cold War old guard like you to pick up some new tricks, like the ability to acquire and process information from different sources just like PDF Chinese have demonstrated to you. Brainwashing yourself willingly, is WORSE than being brainwashed.

 

[The SC]

BEIJING, Dec. 3 -- Chinese President Xi Jinping has called for a smaller army with better combat capability and optimized structure as the military reform deepens.

Xi, who is also chairman of the Central Military Commission (CMC) and head of a leading group for deepening reform on national defense and the armed forces, made the remarks at a two-day conference on military reform, which ended Saturday.

"This is a major, inevitable change," Xi told the meeting. "We must seize the opportunity and make breakthroughs."

The president said changes must be made if China is to build a strong world-class army.

Xi announced in September last year that the armed forces would be cut down by 300,000 troops from the original 2.3 million.

Citing rapid changes to the global military environment, Xi spoke about the informationized modern warfare, noting that joint operations have grown to be the basic form of combat.

"Accordingly, there have been new changes in terms of the military's size, structure, and formation, which features smaller in size, more capable in strength, modulization and multi-functionality, with scientific factors playing bigger roles," Xi said.

The president, who is also general secretary of the Communist Party of China Central Committee, said the military's structure must be readjusted and optimized, new type of forces be developed, the ratios between different types of forces be rationalized, and the number and the scale of the military be downsized.

The Chinese army must grow into modern armed forces with Chinese characteristics, which can win informationized wars and implement their missions, the president said.

"Quantity should be reduced, quality improved to build a capable and efficient modernized standing army," Xi said, adding that China must develop a joint operation force system with the elite force at its core.

Xi also urged the armed force to take the reform as a major political issue, strengthen rules and disciplines in the work, and further purge the pernicious influence of Guo Boxiong and Xu Caihou, two corrupt former CMC vice chairmen.

A total of 230 high-ranking military officials, including members of the CMC, attended the meeting.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/l...204-pdo01.htm?_m=3n.002a.1882.fu0ao0a9bc.1qbh

 

[YeBeWarned]

What China needs are More A/C and battle Groups .. Stronger Air force and more Sophisticated Air Defense Systems

 

[gambit]

You do have a reading comprehension problem. You haven't quoted where I claimed a chaplain is the same as a political officer, because you can't.

Sure you did, here...

Why doesn't the US Army do away with its Chaplain Corps? Isn't it the responsibility of officers and non-coms to lead faith services and provide faith counseling?

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/xi-calls...etter-combat-capability.464668/#ixzz4S09PZbpk

I asked you on the practical necessity of a political officer in a military, any military, if according to you, the PLA version does not interfere with daily operation or have any effects on combat effectiveness.

The answer should be 'No' if we are to confine the debate to the two most important things for any military: how to do things (operations) and how to do those things to their most capable (effectiveness).

Bringing in the chaplaincy is patently absurd. The political officer can can negatively affect morale and combat effectiveness base upon his mission from the government. The personal religious needs of the troops are nowhere comparable to the need of the government to monitor their ideological convictions and political allegiance. Further, under the Geneva Convention, the political officer is a legitimate target while knowingly killing the chaplain is a war crime.

Let's quote wiki here, as outside of anecdotes there are few foreign sources on the role of a political officer in the PLA. This is common knowledge for anyone with passing familiarity with the organization of PLA.

"Today the political commissar is largely responsible for administrative tasks such as public relations and counseling, and mainly serves as second-in-command."

He does not have all encompassing jurisdiction.

This make no sense.

Depending on the size of the unit, a CO can have many deputies to assist him in the many functions of the unit. If you are the highest deputy to the commander, philosophically and operationally, you have the same responsibilities, rights, and jurisdiction as the commander, therefore, you must be able to take over in the event the CO is incommunicado or killed.

You were told before, that PLA political officers primarily handled people affairs, including some clerical and administrative tasks. You claimed that they inspired fear and loathing among the troops, without any evidence as usual. I told you there tasks were vital, but relatively mundane. As is typical with you, you pressed the point further and insisted that they should be abolished.

Basically, just hot air. I actually did undergo training at Whampoa, and anyone who has undergone training in China would know you are uninformed and full of shit.

If we are to go with historical evidences, overwhelmingly, no one like the political officer. As a class of military members, they were and still are despised and feared. While the scope of what they can do when they find something ideological and politically amiss varies, their primary mission is to ensure ideological and political lockstep with the prevailing authority. Making the political officer a ''second in command' is nothing more than an administrative sleigh-of-hand that fools no one as to what the officer really is -- an ideological and political enforcer.

Unlike you, the Americans on this forum, civilians and former military, do not have any reservations on expressing our opinions regarding this kind of people -- scumbags. Yes, we know that if we voluntarily serves, there should be a large measure of ideological convictions and political alignment to the republic, but we do not want a distinct military position clearly defined to monitor our minds. It is not just Americans but in every military. Why is it that the political officer is so common in dictatorial countries and have always been imposed from the top down ?

Taking at face value that you claimed to have had training at Whampoa, I am willing to guess that you defend the position of the political officer more out of offense that the PLA is criticized than out of your personal conviction that such a position is necessary.

Your argument indicates you have little knowledge, let alone understanding of the role of a political officer in the PLA. You like your Hollywood tropes, with a commissar sitting in the back waiting to finger out any dissenter. Reality is much more mundane I assure you.

Fine...Then do away with it.

Let us take the police officer's pistol, for example. Reality is much more mundane in that most of the time, he will draw his weapon at the range than actually engaging in Hollywood style shoot-outs. But that does not mean the police force will advocate for the abolishment of firearms of its officers.

The reason why PLA feels the need for a distinct class of military officers whose philosophical and intellectual focus is on the ideological and political bent of the troops is, in your own words, precisely to -- waiting to finger out any dissenter.

The political officer is the ideological pistol of the Party, hoping to not used but always visibly available as a Party enforcer.

Do everyone a favor, just as how I expressed my contempt for such a position, tell the forum that you APPROVE of such a position in the PLA. Whether it is the truth or not is irrelevant. We just want your approval to be on public record.

PDF Chinese are fine. The problem is that you like to cherry pick little facts from the internet about China, and the moment someone actually familiar with the matter comes along, you come out looking like a fool. I'll demonstrate this shortly.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Here's a rough translation of the Oath of Service in China.

"I am a citizen of the People's Republic of China, in accordance with the law for military service is honorable duty I should, in order to take up the sacred duty of the revolutionary soldier, I declared Oath: love the Chinese Communist Party, love the socialist motherland, love of the Chinese People's Liberation Army, serving the people wholeheartedly. Implement the Party's line, principles, policies, compliance with national laws and regulations, the implementation of the orders, rules and regulations of the army to obey orders. Efforts to learn the military, political, scientific, cultural, and combat ability to care for weaponry, safeguard military secrets, carry forward the fine traditions to participate in the socialist spiritual civilization of intangible cultural courage to fight against the same abuses. Heroic fighting, fear no sacrifice to defend the socialist motherland, safeguard the people's peaceful labor, and in any case never betray the motherland. Above oath, I am determined to fulfill, and never contrary."

As part of our service, we do swear to serve and protect the people, this is stated explicitly during the oath. This is also repeatedly emphasized during indoctrination, by your much maligned political officers. This isn't just idle talk. Contrast the excellent work done by the PLA during the Sichuan earthquake, with the apathetic response to Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans.

Your claim that the PLA serves the party, but not the people, is just a typical ideological rant from an uninformed outsider.

Why this passage: love the Chinese Communist Party ?

That is cherry-picking, friend.

For US, the oath of enlistment make no mention of any political affiliation. The oath expects the person to defend the Constitution.

...do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

No mention of Republican or Democrat or anything.

Why does the PLA oath of enlistment demands the recruit to 'love' the Communist Party ? That oath reads more like a statement of political indoctrination than an oath of honorable devotion and service.

You see, this is the type of mental gymnastics you engage in. Corruption cases in the PLA are "systematic and endemic". Corruption and misconduct in the US military is "isolated criminality". I called you out before for double standards, you haven't learned a thing.

Of course corruption in the PLA is systematic and endemic.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/china-antigraft-drive-exposes-military-risks-1426116777

So widespread was the trade in ranks in the past decade that they came attached with unofficial price tags, with promotion to general costing at least 10 million yuan ($1.6 million) and to senior colonel more than half that, current and retired officers say. Even just enlisting as an ordinary soldier could cost 10,000 yuan in bribes, they say.

“It had become a vicious cycle,” said a retired Chinese officer, with officers who had paid for promotion looking to recoup their investment. The practice, he said, was “pervasive throughout the entire army in the past 10 years.”

Show everyone a single instance where a US general bought his grade/rank.

What you brought about US regarding a retired officer serving on a board of directors was -- hilarious.

First, the officer was RETIRED, meaning he no longer has any operational and practical influence in military affairs.

Second, take a flying USAF airbase, for example, or even PLAAF base one. The wing commander is usually a full colonel and with the amount of people and functions under his command, he is effectively a CEO or a large corporation.

Here is a sample from US...

http://www.nellis.af.mil/News/tabid/6431/Article/664700/99th-cpts-cons-closeout-fiscal-year.aspx

...Nellis AFB executed an annual $295.2 million baseline budget, a $70.9 million overseas contingency operation budget, and $41.3 million Facilities Sustainment Restoration and Modernization budget. During the month of September, the 99th CPTS executed $52.5 million in requirements.

That is a lot money.

So for you to say that RETIRED Mattis who served on a board of directors somehow equates to corruption was indeed laughable. It showed you do not know what is the intent of a board of directors in the first place.

Whereas in your PLA, there were ACTIVE DUTY generals and admirals who were either also CEOs of large corporations or sat on corporate governing bodies.

Which parts of RETIRED and ACTIVE DUTY do you not understand, you who claimed to have had military training in Whampoa ?

I'm done with you.

None of you is ever 'done' with me.

@gambit , just admit you've got owned by a newbie, again.

According to you PDF Chinese, I am always 'owned' by you guys. I always lose, even when I have technical proofs that you cannot refute.

 

[Thəorətic Muslim]

you got your A$$ kicked hard in Vietnam. You only defeated Japan by frog leap in those Island, you never engaged their army front side. All you did was giving them two nuclear bombs. To be honest, USA army is not that good compared with navy and airforce.
You didn't win the Korean War and you loosed the Vietnam war.

Sometimes it's better to go around a wall than through it. As for having nuclear weapons do you think Chairman Mao would have led his comrades across the East China Sea rather than nuking some Japanese Cities for revenge?

The last person to doubt the US Army lost his reputation and his army in Kuwait.

LOL to him, conscription = unprofessional.

Conscription doesn't equal unprofessional, provided the conscripts don't have notions of going all Rambo firing a M60 from the middle of the road. But there needs to be a training camp to accustom individuals to army life. And ratios of experienced to conscripts need high enough so entire battalions don't flee at the sign of a motivated enemy.

Gambit, are you telling me these American soldiers are running an unregistered US Army business?

No, they're stealing.

The US military is saddled with influence peddling and corruption at the very top.

The US Military is being directed to expand the scopes of their operations beyond the pure military sphere. Civil Brigades to train police, Military Police to train investigators. Civilian departments aren't willing to go do anything, the the burden increasingly falls on the Military, since they can't say "go Fu< yourself, you do it."

Tell that to China and Russia that THAAD is not directed at us, see if they believe your story.

It doesn't help with fatty kimmy running around launching missiles and openly declaring any reference to his weight as an act of war.

What do you think the selective service system in the US are for?

The Selective System will be the last used to mobilize the population for total war. The US also has National Guard and Army Reserve who will be mobilized before any Registrant from the Selective System.

Even then recently honorably discharged soldiers and volunteers will be instated over the draftees.

 

[TaiShang]

@DCS , you did a quick brutal re-education here. It was indeed brutal but required.

That's illuminating since you took off lots of fake layers from a pseudo expert.

Thank you for the epic mental spanking of an old fella.

 

[gambit]

The PLA is called the "PEOPLE LIBERATION ARMY". If it doesn't serve the people, who does? You are a joke. LOL

Yeah...The same way that North Korea is 'democratic' according to its official name: Democratic People's Republic of Korea .

 

[Dungeness]

Yeah...The same way that North Korea is 'democratic' according to its official name: Democratic People's Republic of Korea .

This shows how much knowledge you have about your enemy. Guess this why you are in the other side of Pacific, and VC is running your country.

 

[gambit]

This shows how much knowledge you have about your enemy. Guess this why you are in the other side of Pacific, and VC is running your country.

Are you saying that North Korea is 'democratic' in the comparative sense to US ?

 

[Dungeness]

Are you saying that North Korea is 'democratic' in the comparative sense to US ?

I don't know as I never been there, but the way you try to make sense of it was funny.

 

[MULUBJA]

Xi is a smart fellow and seem to have learned a lesson that quantity always does not metter. You need to have quqlity also. This is a paradigm shift in chinese belief of believeing in quantity though how ever quality may be.

 

[gambit]

I don't know as I never been there, but the way you try to make sense of it was funny.

I have never been to the Moon but from what I have read, the place is not very hospitable to human life.

Here is the oath of enlistment into the US military...

https://www.army.mil/values/oath.html

I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Here is the oath of service for the President and any political office...

http://www.presidentsusa.net/oathofoffice.html

• US Constitution, Article II, Section 1
• Before he enter on the execution of his office, he shall take the following oath or affirmation: "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Here is the oath of citizenship...

https://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenshi...ization-oath-allegiance-united-states-america

I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

The common theme is the Constitution. Nothing is said about politics and party affiliation.

But, according to your fellow Chinese who translated the PLA oath of enlistment, the PLA required that the recruit actually 'LOVE' the Communist Party...

I declared Oath: love the Chinese Communist Party,

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/xi-calls-for-smaller-but-more-capable-army.465083/page-2#ixzz4S2sNy1KX

Sure, serve the people came later, but first: Love the Communist Party.

In short, the PLA serves the people in the same absurd sense that North Korea is 'democratic' according to its official name.

 

[Dungeness]

I have never been to the Moon but from what I have read, the place is not very hospitable to human life.

Here is the oath of enlistment into the US military...

https://www.army.mil/values/oath.html

Here is the oath of service for the President and any political office...

http://www.presidentsusa.net/oathofoffice.html

Here is the oath of citizenship...

https://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenshi...ization-oath-allegiance-united-states-america

The common theme is the Constitution. Nothing is said about politics and party affiliation.

But, according to your fellow Chinese who translated the PLA oath of enlistment, the PLA required that the recruit actually 'LOVE' the Communist Party...


Sure, serve the people came later, but first: Love the Communist Party.

In short, the PLA serves the people in the same absurd sense that North Korea is 'democratic' according to its official name.

No sure what point you try to make. There are more than one way to reach Rome, and they are more than one flavor of democracy. Self-righteousness is anti critical thinking.