WS-13 is nearing completion

[vnomad]

At the same time India has been playing around with the LCA which is in fact a foreign plane and even then its destiny is the grave like many other

What do you mean foreign plane? Please justify that statement. And its destiny isn't something you can decide.

Why not compare the achievements in aviation field between India and China?

Why not include Pakistan into the comparision?

 

[araz]

What do you mean foreign plane? Please justify that statement. And its destiny isn't something you can decide.


Why not include Pakistan into the comparision?

Vnomad.
Nobody here will deny the lack of capability that Pakistan has. We are in our Industrial infancy and have/are just progressing into having an input into designing /manufacturing JF17.Even that will be done in phases. Given Pakistan,s capabilities, you have to accept that this is the logical way to progress. India on the other hand has much better developed industrial setup and have built planes since ?? late 60s( please correct me if I am wrong). Their next forray into the development ladder is the development of their own plane. Being a more difficult stage their progress has been slow. China on the other hand is a stage further up. They have collaborated with Pakistan(and also with France allegedly) to acquire the western component to their knowledge that they have been lacking. I think it is a measure of their R+D infrastructure and the amount of money that they have poured into their projects that that has borne fruit. I think given the levels that these countries are at, India comes in second to China. However where there is an argument is whether the cost to benefit ratio(with regards to resources utilized/VS products) of resources has been appropriately utilized by India or not. I think this is the area which all the chest banging has been going on. At the moment India does not have an admirable record. I dont know whether this is the stage in their industrial development or whether they are doing something wrong. I think this is where the Indian strategists need to review their progress.I hope we can continue our debate from here.
Keep smiling
WaSalam
Araz

 

[vnomad]

Araz,
It was a pleasure reading your post though I don't completely agree.

Nobody here will deny the lack of capability that Pakistan has. We are in our Industrial infancy and have/are just progressing into having an input into designing /manufacturing JF17.

I'm still in the dark about Pakistan's contribution(besides the investment) to the JF-17 project.

Even that will be done in phases. Given Pakistan,s capabilities, you have to accept that this is the logical way to progress. India on the other hand has much better developed industrial setup and have built planes since ?? late 60s( please correct me if I am wrong). Their next forray into the development ladder is the development of their own plane. Being a more difficult stage their progress has been slow.

What infrastructure we inherited from the British surely isn't a question to be asked to today, 60 years hence. India did not start of with a base for aircraft design. India did develop an indigenous fighter the HF-21 Marut but we were refused engines by Britain leaving it very underpowered and a failure for all practical purposes. When the LCA project was sanctioned, the DRDO had no experience and had to start of from scratch. US sanctions after the '98 nuclear tests crippled the development leading to further delay. Finally in 2006the fifth weaponized prototype of the Tejas took to the sky bringing the DRDO on the threshold of success. The LCA has been delayed but the result isn't something to laugh at.

I think it is a measure of their R+D infrastructure and the amount of money that they have poured into their projects that that has borne fruit. I think given the levels that these countries are at, India comes in second to China.

Russian contribution to China was immense, thanks to all the reverse engineering. If you decide to compare the final product - the Tejas and Thunder both have their advantages and disadvantages. The Thunder is much cheaper while the Tejas has a much lower RCS.

However where there is an argument is whether the cost to benefit ratio(with regards to resources utilized/VS products) of resources has been appropriately utilized by India or not. I think this is the area which all the chest banging has been going on. At the moment India does not have an admirable record.

Overall the Chinese are ahead but in this regard I believe India scores. The DRDO's 'failures' are very publicised and cost overruns posted everywhere. Now examine this - India spends about a billion a year on R&D. Chinese is estimated to spend upwards of $6 billion. They will obviously show better results with all that cash invested.

Regards
Vivek

 

[sigatoka]

China has no history of innovation or design related achievement. I discount them on their capabilities. They haven't produced a single credible and proprietary product.....defense or civilian......nothing! Since 1948.

If Russia withdraws support they'd be again thrown into a time warp.......Like when Stalin cut the umblical on them, and they flew the F-6 for 40 years........you remember that???

Innovative my aas! They are good copycats.

China's economy has been growing at 10% for three decades now, a blistering rate unmatched in history. Yet the fact they have not innovated is in fact an important message to all developing nations, when one is poor one only has to "import" knowledge already created around the world to close the gap. In this regard China has been dramatically successful. Nations like India over the last three decade may indeed have more proprietary products and more innovation, but their aggregate results have been far worse, GDP growth closer to 3% than 10%.

China could illogically start attempting to develop everything on its own (in military hardware), but why would it be like India. Instead China is importing and developing such that both the short and medium/long run is catered for. Russia indeed is a military design powerhouse alongside Europe and U.S. but over the next 15 years China will make inroads into low cost jets and will after that start to seriously compete with Russia, Europe and U.S. in high quality jets as well.

 

[Bull]

China's economy has been growing at 10% for three decades now, a blistering rate unmatched in history. Yet the fact they have not innovated is in fact an important message to all developing nations, when one is poor one only has to "import" knowledge already created around the world to close the gap. In this regard China has been dramatically successful. Nations like India over the last three decade may indeed have more proprietary products and more innovation, but their aggregate results have been far worse, GDP growth closer to 3% than 10%. .

Well the slow growth of rate was due to the licence raj and not due to the effort pout in trying to do everything on its ow. The 3% growth rate or the Hndu growth rate was the a accepted rate of growth until the 90's when reforms were undertaken and growth rose to 6% to 8% and now the targeted 9%.

Instead China is importing and developing such that both the short and medium/long run is catered for. Russia indeed is a military design powerhouse alongside Europe and U.S. but over the next 15 years China will make inroads into low cost jets and will after that start to seriously compete with Russia, Europe and U.S. in high quality jets as well.

People who say that India to just a back office for the world has to understand that at present China is also just a workshop for the world,which churns out goods at dirth cheap prices.

The point that im trying to make is that the Indians were always good at services or people skills. Talbott has famously mentioned "that the last people he would mess around with when it comes to filing is the Indians".China has its advantage in mfring and thats what is helping it in developing military hardware.

 

[Munir]

>>>vnomad;42880]What do you mean foreign plane? Please justify that statement. And its destiny isn't something you can decide.

Sounds stupid. It is a forum and if you have read articles and comments then you would understand... I do not have to justify your **** abnd pathetic reaction.



>>>Why not include Pakistan into the comparision?

Why comparing a big bully (5 times bigger) with a smaller neighbour. India and China have same size... But Ok. Pakistan is getting lots of help from China to get something up and running. It is not as far as India and I doubt it will be there in the near future. (Aviation industry). But for a small nation it did produce ballistic missiles, cruise missiles and is co-operating with China to get more. India did get all the world at its feet yet cannot produce a simple fighter. Copies Mirage 2000. Gets US engine. Gets Israeli radar. Gets lot more from others. And yet... While China moved in the same period from bad J7 copies (mig21F) to K8, JF17, J10, J11 and surely it has some imported parts and yes it is not up to the best of the best but look at the speed and price...

 

[Munir]

Dream on...

Araz,
It was a pleasure reading your post though I don't completely agree.

I'm still in the dark about Pakistan's contribution(besides the investment) to the JF-17 project.


What infrastructure we inherited from the British surely isn't a question to be asked to today, 60 years hence. India did not start of with a base for aircraft design. India did develop an indigenous fighter the HF-21 Marut but we were refused engines by Britain leaving it very underpowered and a failure for all practical purposes. When the LCA project was sanctioned, the DRDO had no experience and had to start of from scratch. US sanctions after the '98 nuclear tests crippled the development leading to further delay. Finally in 2006the fifth weaponized prototype of the Tejas took to the sky bringing the DRDO on the threshold of success. The LCA has been delayed but the result isn't something to laugh at.


Russian contribution to China was immense, thanks to all the reverse engineering. If you decide to compare the final product - the Tejas and Thunder both have their advantages and disadvantages. The Thunder is much cheaper while the Tejas has a much lower RCS.


Overall the Chinese are ahead but in this regard I believe India scores. The DRDO's 'failures' are very publicised and cost overruns posted everywhere. Now examine this - India spends about a billion a year on R&D. Chinese is estimated to spend upwards of $6 billion. They will obviously show better results with all that cash invested.

Regards
Vivek

 

[vnomad]

>>>vnomad;42880]
Sounds stupid. It is a forum and if you have read articles and comments then you would understand... I do not have to justify your **** abnd pathetic reaction.

Here's a news flash for you, THE JF-17 ALSO HAS A FOREIGN RADAR AND ENGINE. And you're deluding yourself if you think you codeveloped it. Pakistan's contribution for financial and little else.

Dream on...

That post wasn't for you, or I wouldn't have been so polite.

 

[Munir]

Here's a news flash for you, THE JF-17 ALSO HAS A FOREIGN RADAR AND ENGINE. And you're deluding yourself if you think you codeveloped it. Pakistan's contribution for financial and little else.


That post wasn't for you, or I wouldn't have been so polite.

I did not say Pak developed or co-developed every part... I think Pakistan is smarter cause they gave some advices and got a whole plane + TOT in return... Barking that LCA is fully Indian and superb is more kind od deluding... The end product counts andin that respect you may think again being as big as China...

Being polite is not a question. Remember that you are a guest and this is not the nationlistic Ratshak forum...

 

[vnomad]

I did not say Pak developed or co-developed every part... I think Pakistan is smarter cause they gave some advices and got a whole plane + TOT in return...

Which part did it develop? I have heard several claims of the thunder be indigenous. Under the this criteria even the Su-30MKI is an indigenous Indian aircraft. Doesn't the thunder acquisition basically mean you're buying out a ToT?

Barking that LCA is fully Indian and superb is more kind od deluding...

Let me put it this way - the LCA is just as much Indian as the JAS-39 Gripen is Swedish. Go ahead prove me wrong.

The end product counts andin that respect you may think again being as big as China...

The Chinese spend $6 billion+ on R&D, while India spends about $1 billion.

Being polite is not a question.

Wasn't this uncalled for - "I do not have to justify your **** abnd pathetic reaction."

Remember that you are a guest and this is not the nationlistic Ratshak forum...

I'm not a member of BR. And its not your call, its Webby's. If he feels I deserve a suspension or ban, he's welcome to award it.

 

[Bull]

I did not say Pak developed or co-developed every part... I think Pakistan is smarter cause they gave some advices and got a whole plane + TOT in return... Barking that LCA is fully Indian and superb is more kind od deluding... The end product counts andin that respect you may think again being as big as China.....

How different is that from buying a plane say grippen with ToT?

 

[ahussains]

How different is that from buying a plane say grippen with ToT?

Who says that the LCA is purely indian ... You are gettting help from every corner of the WOrld Russains give the desgin assistance and GE give the engines for the prototype and where is the KEVARI class engine how u fly a plane with out engine ?

 

[con]

Who says that the LCA is purely indian ... You are gettting help from every corner of the WOrld Russains give the desgin assistance and GE give the engines for the prototype and where is the KEVARI class engine how u fly a plane with out engine ?

Can you prove it with a source article which mentions that Russian gave design assistance.
It would add to my knowledge.

 

[Adux]

Can you prove it with a source article which mentions that Russian gave design assistance.
It would add to my knowledge.

There is Russian Assistance in LCA for evaluation of Kaveri in their High Altitude testing Lav, and Weapons. There is no Design Assitance. Most of the assistance is from France and USA; Ge-404,

 

[con]

There is Russian Assistance in LCA for evaluation of Kaveri in their High Altitude testing Lav, and Weapons. There is no Design Assitance. Most of the assistance is from France and USA; Ge-404,

Yeah was aware of Russian assitance in engine testing. Hence wanted our dear friend to prove the Russian angle in the airframe design.