Would Jinnah have lived as a Shia?

[Fracker]

People should read that, and these are not just words but references are there.

This article speaks about "Moulana Ashraf Thanvi" and Quaid-a-Azam's link. This article gives reference about numerous meetings between both and after when he return in 1934, Quaid-e-Azam was a changed person. Who start using Religion in his speaches, At many places he mention "Quran" is our Guide. And so o on..

 

[Redbull]

That's makes him Sunni ..

Wrong, Sunni Shia is not something that worries such a great man. He is Muslim.....period.

 

[KingMamba]

Sufism is a myth TBH. You just have sufi influenced Sunni. Not a Sufi.

Not my 40% according to a recent PEW poll.

It has been there ever since the creation of Islam.

Sufis are technically just a denomination of Sunnis like there are Ismaeli Shias and Twelver Shias it is the same thing they just call themselves Sufi.

Not in Pakistan both sects lived in harmony for decades.

He converted from Khoja Shia to Twelver Shia sect.

There is no such thing as converting within a sect, you just change the school of thought you follow.

Wrong, Sunni Shia is not something that worries such a great man. He is Muslim.....period.

Agreed those were simpler times though IMO nobody cared about Sunni- Shia like they do in Pakistan.

The true Sufis are the dancing singing ones. As I said Sufism is a myth/extinct. Yeah you do have a Sufi influened Sunni culture.

Wrong, but nice try attempting to tell a Muslim what Sufism is. Sufism is still alive in Pakistan thanks for your concerns though.

 

[asad71]

1. Jinnah was born a Punja of the Ismailis, who are a sub-sect of the Shia.In his youth Jinnah was an Anglicized / Western man. But he was highly intelligent. His grasp of matters was quick. He was always open to reasoning. Soon after he came in touch with Muslim stalwarts of the time, he became totally transformed. Not only in India, Jinnah had discourses on various aspects of Islam with scholars in Egypt, Palestine and other places. Jinnah died a total Muslim, a pure Muslim who did not make bones/issues about sect.

2. If you read Jinnah's speeches backward from the speech made at the opening of the State Bank of Pakistan, you would understand how thorough was his grasp of The Message.He had very clear concepts about governance, politics, economy and finance, defence and other issues in conformity with The Message.

 

[notsuperstitious]

Intelligent people try to unite on common grounds , idiots try to find differences.

Fully agreed, this is essentially what Maulana Kalam said too.

As to Jinnah's reference to Islam, he was a politician who said what his constituency wanted to hear. Thats what all politicians do. They do not necessarily follow what they say. Thats just a fact.

 

[Redbull]

Sufiism is not a seperate sect, it is part of being a Muslim just like Imaan is.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Of course, if you use OBL as the ideal comparison, then JInnah would hardly play the part, on the other hand if sunnah and the practises of sahabas and other great muslims leaders are concerned Jinnah was the absolute best men of the century
ANd Allah SWT knows best

your above post is a symptom of a person left with few brain cells. psychiatrist might help if not then may allah help you son.

 

[Manticore]

90% of the spirtuality spread through hazrat ali rahmetullah - this knowledge was transferred by the prophet pbuh -- this knowledge was passed on through generations by spiritual leaders who used to train their students ''common wallee allah'' to polish there ways of life & to learn to submit to God's every decision with grace -- these spiritual leaders are also subdivided into ranks & different prominant leaders have named various spirtual offshoots [all ending at hazrat ali] however all of them have the mastered the basic islam at the first stage-- & they are in the stages of there spiritual persuits --In quran God says"" cant you see me in every thing? why dont you stop & think?""--- it is this phase which is the most difficult one and its not the job of every muslim--as saying the kalima is one thing, actually understanding and implementing it on every step of your life is totally different matter--- these ''dances'' are merely one aspect of their life , actually you can get manyfold meanings of their lyrics if you noticed

there is one spirtual offshoot from one of the other 3 khulfa-e-rashideen ---but i dont remember the name right now

before the age of 40 , the prophet pbuh used to go to cave 'hira' -- at that time there was no concept of 'namaz'--- the question arises , what kind of prayer He pbuh used to do at that time? it was this ''thinking, questioning'' etc

ive tried to describe a veryyyy complex thing in one para-- however those who've felt this spirtuality , well only they can understand it

 

[Redbull]

"One day we were sitting in the company of the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, when there appeared before us a man dressed in pure white clothes, his hair extraordinarily black. There were no signs of travel on him. None of us recognized him. He sat with the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him. Resting his knees against his and the palms of his hands on his thighs, he said, 'O Muhammad, tell me about Islam'.
The Messenger of Allah replied, 'Islam is to testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, to establish the prayer, pay the zakat, observe the fast of Ramadan, and perform the pilgrimage to the House if you are able to do so'.
He said, 'You have spoken the truth,' and we were amazed at him asking and then verifying that he had spoken the truth. He then said, 'Inform me about Iman'.
He replied, 'It is to believe in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, the Last Day, and in the divine destiny of both good and evil'.
He said, 'You have spoken the truth'.
He then said, 'Tell me about Ihsan'.
He said, 'It is to worship Allah as if you see Him, for though you do not see Him, surely He sees you'.
He then said, 'Inform me about the Hour'.
He replied, 'The one who is asked knows no more than the one who is asking'.
He said, 'Tell me some of its signs'.
He said, 'That the slave-girl will give birth to her mistress, and barefoot, destitute shepherds will compete with one another in the building of magnificent buildings'.
Then he (the questioner) went on his way but I stayed with him (the Prophet) for a long while.
He said to me, 'Umar, do you know who this questioner was?'
I replied, 'Allah and His Messenger know best'.
He said, 'He was Gabriel. He came to instruct you in your religion'.''
-------------------------------related by 'Umar ibn al-Khattab
-------------------------------in Sahih Muslim

Ihsan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Myth_buster_1]

I don't think you know anything about religion and specifically religion Islam.

coming from a guy with utter nonsense displayed in his post.

It's a belief which makes you Muslim and then sunni or shia Muslim.

creation of sects is a big sin and disapproved by Allah and the messenger so those who practice and belong to any sects are in wrong path.

And practice makes you Good Follower or bad follower.

Do you read your own post before submitting?

Which means they agree that "non-muslims" should pay jaziya but when it comes to paying zakat they run away, or specifically they believe in ahl-e-bait (to be a shia) or Sahaba (to be sunni), but when it comes to practice they don't. This makes them Muslim, and may be some sect's follower... but May be not Momin (as per definition of any sect). Same way, 90% Pakistani Muslim's believe Shariah should be implemented in Pakistan, but when it comes for them to practise, they miss, they fails etc.

Okay so?

This makes them Muslim believe, and follower of a sect. So he was not a secular but follower of Ashraf Thanvi who helped him to change his religion believes...

His occasional meetings with mullahna ashraf thanwi is not a sufficient evidence to conclude his devotion to islam. Heck, one could conclude "He was a freemason" because he was disciple of Annie beasent (freemason) and was so much influenced by her that he refereed to her as "amma" mother and had many freemasons as his leaders.

and in the end He made Pakistan on his beliefs

Exactly, Pakistan was never made in accordance to Islam.

As to Jinnah's reference to Islam, he was a politician who said what his constituency wanted to hear. Thats what all politicians do. They do not necessarily follow what they say. Thats just a fact.

This is one of the very few posts by Indians with which i will fully agree!

 

[Manticore]

All right guys , lets come back to topic ---- Its safe to say there are not many sectarian divisions having social implications among common pakistanis as the outsiders are trying to portray

 

[Myth_buster_1]

2. If you read Jinnah's speeches backward from the speech made at the opening of the State Bank of Pakistan, you would understand how thorough was his grasp of The Message.He had very clear concepts about governance, politics, economy and finance, defence and other issues in conformity with The Message.

Mere speeches is not enough! What is more important is "PRACTICE" in which he failed miserably! From institutions to constitutions and personal belief was all based on British plans. Brtian wanted to divide its colony according to its desire and creation of Afganistan, pakistan Saudi arabia turkey india etc was all part of it.

This article speaks about "Moulana Ashraf Thanvi" and Quaid-a-Azam's link. This article gives reference about numerous meetings between both and after when he return in 1934, Quaid-e-Azam was a changed person. Who start using Religion in his speaches, At many places he mention "Quran" is our Guide. And so o on..

During independence movement, a stage came when Maulana ashraf ali thanwi realized that after the departure of British, Muslims would be governed by the leaders who had acquired western education. So therefore he decided to impart religious training to those leaders and oranised a delegation, which was headed by maulana murtaza hassan. The other members were maulana shabbir ali thanwi, maulana abdul jabbar, maulana abdul ghani, maulana husnain moazzam and maulana zafar ahmad usmani. Maulana shabbir ahmad usmani and maulana zafar ahmad usmani were real brothers and nephews of maulana ashraf ali thanwi. In December 1938, the annual meeting of muslim league was planned. The delegation reached patna except maulana shabbir ahmad usmani, who couldn’t join due to the illness of his mother. The delegation of scholars wanted to meet mr jinnah prior to the meeting of muslim league, which was granted to them.

The meeting of scholars with mr jinnah lasted for an hour. The scholars inquired from mr jinnah about his religious obligations. Mr jinnah admitted about his weaknesses and promised to rectify himself. This was due to the influence of maulana ashraf ali thanwi, otherwise mr jinnah was not a person to be influenced by others so easily. Mr jinnah also confessed that he was a sinful person and promised to offer his prayers. The scholars also attended the annual meeting of muslim league in which they advised the members of muslim league to adopt Islamic ways and means in the light of instructions given by maulana ashraf ali thanwi.

Next year, another meeting of scholars with mr jinnah was held in which he stated that he understood the importance of religion, which can not be separated from politics. Infact politics was subservient to religion. This meeting was also attended by Mufti muhammd shafi ( father of mufti taqi usmani). The representatives of maulana ashraf ali thanwi kept meting with mr jinnah till May 1947, while ensuring his religious grooming, which resulted into a firm relationship of mr jinnah with maulana ashraf ali thanwi and his family.

According to maulana zafar ahmad usmani, at one occasion, it was mentioned before mr jinnah that number of scholars were more in Indian congress as compared to muslim league. Mr jinnah asked, who were those scholars? In reply the names of maulana hussain madni, mufti kifyat ullah and maulana abul kalam azad were mentioned. Mr jinnah replied that muslim league had a big scholar ( maulana Ashraf Ali Thanwi) on its side, whose piety, status and knowledge was much more than other scholars.

If not good than Why did The Almighty allowed him to make a country for 100's of millions people of the subcontinent?

God almighty is a creator of all and pakistan india israel USA fiji etc are all part of his creation.

 

[Zarvan]

All right guys , lets come back to topic ---- Its safe to say there are not many sectarian divisions having social implications among common pakistanis as the outsiders are trying to portray

Jinah would never have made disastrous policies he wouldn't have become slave of America kill own people he wouldn't have allowed liberals to confuse people on bases of Pakistan he himself would have implemented Islamic Law and build economy on that too in short Pakistan would have been far better state in fact it would have been Islamic Welfare State and instead of seeking help Pakistan would have been helping other nations by now

 

[Uchiha]

Mere speeches is not enough! What is more important is "PRACTICE" in which he failed miserably! From institutions to constitutions and personal belief was all based on British plans. Brtian wanted to divide its colony according to its desire and creation of Afganistan, pakistan Saudi arabia turkey india etc was all part of it.



During independence movement, a stage came when Maulana ashraf ali thanwi realized that after the departure of British, Muslims would be governed by the leaders who had acquired western education. So therefore he decided to impart religious training to those leaders and oranised a delegation, which was headed by maulana murtaza hassan. The other members were maulana shabbir ali thanwi, maulana abdul jabbar, maulana abdul ghani, maulana husnain moazzam and maulana zafar ahmad usmani. Maulana shabbir ahmad usmani and maulana zafar ahmad usmani were real brothers and nephews of maulana ashraf ali thanwi. In December 1938, the annual meeting of muslim league was planned. The delegation reached patna except maulana shabbir ahmad usmani, who couldn’t join due to the illness of his mother. The delegation of scholars wanted to meet mr jinnah prior to the meeting of muslim league, which was granted to them.

The meeting of scholars with mr jinnah lasted for an hour. The scholars inquired from mr jinnah about his religious obligations. Mr jinnah admitted about his weaknesses and promised to rectify himself. This was due to the influence of maulana ashraf ali thanwi, otherwise mr jinnah was not a person to be influenced by others so easily. Mr jinnah also confessed that he was a sinful person and promised to offer his prayers. The scholars also attended the annual meeting of muslim league in which they advised the members of muslim league to adopt Islamic ways and means in the light of instructions given by maulana ashraf ali thanwi.

Next year, another meeting of scholars with mr jinnah was held in which he stated that he understood the importance of religion, which can not be separated from politics. Infact politics was subservient to religion. This meeting was also attended by Mufti muhammd shafi ( father of mufti taqi usmani). The representatives of maulana ashraf ali thanwi kept meting with mr jinnah till May 1947, while ensuring his religious grooming, which resulted into a firm relationship of mr jinnah with maulana ashraf ali thanwi and his family.

According to maulana zafar ahmad usmani, at one occasion, it was mentioned before mr jinnah that number of scholars were more in Indian congress as compared to muslim league. Mr jinnah asked, who were those scholars? In reply the names of maulana hussain madni, mufti kifyat ullah and maulana abul kalam azad were mentioned. Mr jinnah replied that muslim league had a big scholar ( maulana Ashraf Ali Thanwi) on its side, whose piety, status and knowledge was much more than other scholars.



God almighty is a creator of all and pakistan india israel USA fiji etc are all part of his creation.

We are to believe your rumors, why?
It's a fact that the number of anti-jinnah historians was ridiculously huge, and all their efforts to demonize Jinnah Rahm Allah alayhi in the eyes of Pakistan failed.
May Abdul Kalam Azad burn in hell for the fitna he spread, may Allah give jinnah RA the highest honor in heaven and closeness to the Prophet SAW

 

[Zarvan]

You're such a ***** and a know-it-all, you think you sound intelligent? You're not gonna get anywhere in life with your huge over inflated ego, lose the attitude and act like a grownup.


It's rare where I have to agree with you, but your point is wrong, he was very liberal, he'd attend parties with the white politicians and officials, he'd go to meetings with them whre obviously alcohol was served, his sister was free to speak and he didn't hide her in a cave. <--That is a small part of the definition of liberal

Mr yes he was liberal for sometime than he became close Islam and remained close to Islam for lot of time and above all we Muslims need to check what ALLAH and his RASOOL SAW has ordered us not what Jinah ordered us but still except one or two of his speech he has said several times Pakistan law will be based on Quran and Sunnah

Quaid-e-Azam Ka Pakistan” in his own words
In pakistan on August 14, 2009 at 2:54 am
Our secular & liberal freaks attacking on Islamic Ideology of Pakistan & falsely giving the reference of Quaid-e-Azam August 11 speech, which he delivered under the extreme conditions of law & order whereHindu Muslims riots have errupted. Here by quoting few sayings of QA wants to remind our readers that what was the QA vision about Pakistan.

“India is not a nation, nor a country. It is a Sub Continent of nationalities. Hindus and Muslims being the two major nations. The Hindus and Muslims belongs belong to two different religions, philosophies, social customs and literature. They neither intermarry nor interdine and they belong to two different civilization which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions. Their aspects on life and of are different. It is quite clear that Hindus and Muslims derive their inspiration from different sources of history.”(Presidential address at the annual session of Muslim League at Lahore in 1940)

“We do not demand Pakistan simply to have a piece of land but we want a laboratory where we could experiment on Islamic principles.”(In 1946, Quaid-e-Azam Islamia College Peshawar)

“Pakistan only means freedom and independence but Muslims ideology, which has to be preserved which has come to us as a precious gift and treasure and which w hope, others will share with us.” (message to the frontier Muslim Students Federation (June 18th 1945),

“The vital contest in which we are engaged is not only for the material gain but also the very existence of the soul of Muslim nation, Hence I have said often that it is a matter of life and death to the Musalmans and is not a counter for bargaining.”
Predisential Address devlivered at the Special Pakistan Session of the Punjab Muslim Students Federation
March 2, 1941

“Pakistan not only means freedom and independce but the Muslim Ideology which has to be preserved, which has come to us as a precious gift and treasure and which, we hope other will share with us”
Message to Frontier Muslim Students Federation
June 18, 1945

“If we want to make this great State of Pakistan happy and prosperous we should wholly and solely concentrate on the well-being of the people, and especially of the masses and the poor… you are free- you are free to go to your temples mosques or any other place of worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion, caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the state… in due course of time Hindus will cease to be Hindus and Muslims will cease to Muslims- not in a religious sense for that is the personal faith of an individual- but in a political sense as citizens of one state”
Address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan, Karachi
August 11, 1947



“You have to stand guard over the development and maintenance of Islamic democracy, Islamic social justice and the equality of manhood in your own native soil. With faith, discipline and selfless devotion to duty, there is nothing worthwhile that you cannot achieve.”
Address to the officers and men of the 5th Heavy Ack Ack and 6th Light Ack Ack Regiments in Malir, Karachi
February 21, 1948

“We should have a State in which we could live and breathe as free men and which we could develop according to our own lights and culture and where principles of Islamic social justice could find free play.”
Address to Civil, Naval, Military and Air Force Officers of Pakistan Government, Karachi
October 11, 1947

“We must work our destiny in our own way and present to the world an economic system based on true Islamic concept of equality of manhood and social justice. We will thereby be fulfilling our mission as Muslims and giving to humanity the message of peace which alone can save it and secure the welfare, happiness and prosperity of mankind”
Speech at the opening ceremony of State Bank of Pakistan, Karachi
July 1, 1948



How can there be unity of government between areas so widely separated? I can answer this question in one word. It is “faith” : faith in Almighty God, in ourselves and in our destiny.

(Broadcast to Australia, recorded on 9th February, 1948)

It is my belief that our salvation lies in following the golden rules of conduct set for us by our great law-giver, the Prophet of Islam.

(Speech at Shahi Darbar, Sibi, February 14, 1948



For Secular / Liberal minded peoples who start from August 11 speech, should read following

Addressing Bar Association Karachi on 25th March 1948,
“Thirteen hundred years ago he laid the foundation of democracy… The Prophet was a great teacher. He was a great lawgiver. He was a great statesman and a great sovereign who ruled. No doubt, there are many people who do not quite appreciate when we talk of Islam. Islam is not only a set of rituals, traditions and spiritual doctrines. Islam is also a code for every Muslim, which regulates his life and his conduct in even politics and economics and the like. It is
based upon highest principles of honour, integrity, fair play and justice for all. One God and the equality of man is one of the fundamental principles of Islam. In Islam there is no difference between man and man. The qualities of
equality, liberty and fraternity are the fundamental principles in Islam.”

Also in the same speech,
“What reason is there for anyone to fear democracy, equality, freedom on the highest standard of integrity and on the basis of fair play and justice for everybody… Let us make it (the constitution of Pakistan). We shall make it and we will show it to the world.”

On 14th February 1948 in Sibi Darbar,
“It is my belief that our salvation lies in following the golden rules of conduct set for us by our great lawgiver, The Prophet of Islam. Let us lay the foundations of our democracy on the basis of truly Islamic ideals and principles. Our Almighty has taught us that “Our decisions in the affairs of state shall be guided by discussions and consultations.”

Also in Feb. 1948 in his broadcast to people of United States of America, ”The Constitution of Pakistan is yet to be framed by the Pakistan Constituent Assembly. I do not know that the ultimate shape of this Constitution will be, but I am sure that it will be of the democratic type, embodying the essential principles of Islam. Today they are as applicable in actual life as they were 1300 years ago. Islam and its idealism have taught us democracy. It has taught equality of man, justice and fair play to everybody. We are the inheritors of these glorious traditions, and are fully alive to our responsibilities and obligations as the framers of the future Constitution of Pakistan.”

And also in Feb. 1948 in his broadcast to the people of Australia,
“The great majority of us are Muslims. We follow the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). We are members of the brotherhood of Islam in which all are equal in right, dignity and self-respect. Consequently we have a special and a very deep sense of unity. But make no mistake: Pakistan is not a theocracy
or anything like it. Islam demands from us the tolerance of other creeds and we welcome in closest association with us all those who, of whatever creed,are themselves willing and ready to play their part as true and loyal citizens of Pakistan.”

In a Press Conference held in New Delhi on 4th July 1947, Quaid-I-Azam answered certain questions which were put to him regarding the nature of state of Pakistan.

Q: Will Pakistan be a secular or theocratic state?
A: You are asking me a question that is absurd. I do not know what a theocratic state means…
(A correspondent suggested that a theocratic state meant a state where only people of a particular religion, for example Muslims would be full citizens and non-muslims would not be full citizens.)
A: Then it seems to me that what I have already said is like pouring water on the duck’s back laughter).
When you talk of democracy, I am afraid you have not studies Islam. We learnt democracy thirteen centuries ago.

In an interview reported in the Press on 25th January 1948 Mr. Jinnah said that,

“he could not understand a section of people who deliberately wanted to create mischief and made propaganda that the Constitution of Pakistan would not be made on the basis of Shariat…” He further said that “not only the muslims but also the non-muslims have nothing to fear.”