World's Best Armies Vs Rag Tag Militia with AK47s

[Cynic Waheed]

Dear Members,

There is one question in my mind from a long time and I wanted to find out what are the views of the members here. Where I have seen numerous articles and comments on this valuable forum here about the best air crafts, the stealth fighters and what not. When I look at the Taliban for instance, a force that does not have none of this and is fighting successfully against the world top best armies with all of the modern gadgets a country can wish for. I often come to a conclusion that it is not these F-16s or stealth fighters or modern gadgets that wins the war for a country. In my opinion it is the will and determination and of course FAITH (which I believe is also preached by Islam) that actually wins the wars.

As stated above, Afghanistan is an excellent example for my case here, where US and NATO despite having the best military equipment in the world, may have won the battle but are clearly losing the war. Vietnam is another example.

So my question for the respected members here is that what good are these latest gadgets if they cant win you your stated objectives. As a Pakistani why should we spend billions on arms when in my humble opinion its not the weapons that win you wars. I request all members to put their sincere thoughts here and enlighten me with their views and if you guys agree at all with my assessment!

Kind Regards.

 

[M8R]

Armies are trained to fight conventional war whereas terrorists fight using gurellia tactics.So you suggest Pakistan should absolve it' army and fight conventional gurellia war with Indian Army?Well, Are you ready to be bombed back to stone age and are you ready to accept large number of casualties as a result of gurellia war and are you ok with Indians occupying Pakistan for decades.

 

[Cynic Waheed]

^ Absolutely not bro. My point is that its not the weapons that wins u wars. Pak has sufficient arsenal and is just being multiplied each year. Where we spend peanuts on development and education due to this arms race. On the other side of border rag tag militia is battling the worlds super power with nothing at all! so what good are these weapons?

whenever there is war there will be destruction dont you think? even if u have weapons or not! its inevitable.

And I dont like the way we use the word terrorists as a synonym with Taliban. I do hope u understand that some of these so called "terrorists" are fighting a legitimate war against the foreign occupiers. You can hardly label them terrorists can u?!

 

[M8R]

Well Waheed there is another thing - US is fighting a war and there are civilians too where as if there was a real war between two countries.Each one would bomb each other without worrying about civilian deaths so guerrilla war would be dangerous because their mission would be to neutralize each side not to hold ground first.If you ask me even the current education budget is not being handled properly that we can see from reports from INTL organizations.Well for me the threat of war ended after May 28, 1998.

 

[Icarus]

According to military science In an insurgency(or guerilla warfare), numbers and technological advantage are multiplied by zero, because the enemy can blend in with the population and you cannot distinguish between enemy and civilian, even if you can manage to identify the enemy, he may be in a position where you risk massive collateral damage and can therefore not engage him. Now I may have the latest B-2 bomber or an F-16 for that matter but I can't target a militant installation in the middle of a packed neighbourhood, If I do, people will rally against me, and I don't ant that. On the other hand the Taliban can afford collateral damage because they are hardly going to rule people on a system based on freedom, any one who opposes or criticizes them..........off with his head, so they don't really care if they killed an innocent because they know his family will be in no position to oppose them, if they feel very sorry, they send the effected family a certificate that the Taliban endorse the martyrdom of this and this guy and we testify that he has a right to go to heaven, signed your friendly neighbourhood Taliban.

Got it ?

 

[gambit]

The initial argument is already flawed because it is based upon the presumption that a low intensity, long duration guerrilla warfare is an option. No, it is not option. No one likes to fight for long. The goal is ever to bring overwhelming advantages to the fight and we label that 'conventional warfare'. The side that has to resort to that low intensity, long duration warfare do so because it suffer a gross disadvantage in some critical areas, usually weapons. If the US remains fighting in Afghanistan for years, it is because we have certain political goals that restrains the employment of the gross advantages we have in weapons, not because the weapons themselves are somehow 'inadequate' or 'inappropriate' for the conflict. Would I rather obliterate the hill filled with Taliban fighters? Of course I would instead of sending troops.

 

[jha]

Dear Members,

There is one question in my mind from a long time and I wanted to find out what are the views of the members here. Where I have seen numerous articles and comments on this valuable forum here about the best air crafts, the stealth fighters and what not. When I look at the Taliban for instance, a force that does not have none of this and is fighting successfully against the world top best armies with all of the modern gadgets a country can wish for. I often come to a conclusion that it is not these F-16s or stealth fighters or modern gadgets that wins the war for a country. In my opinion it is the will and determination and of course FAITH (which I believe is also preached by Islam) that actually wins the wars.

As stated above, Afghanistan is an excellent example for my case here, where US and NATO despite having the best military equipment in the world, may have won the battle but are clearly losing the war. Vietnam is another example.

So my question for the respected members here is that what good are these latest gadgets if they cant win you your stated objectives. As a Pakistani why should we spend billions on arms when in my humble opinion its not the weapons that win you wars. I request all members to put their sincere thoughts here and enlighten me with their views and if you guys agree at all with my assessment!

Kind Regards.

They are allegedly loosing the war because they dont want to repeat the mistake of 89..if they wanted they could have blasted whole tora-bora ...but its collateral damage they are afraid of...

 

[salvation]

Armed forces are established institutions. They are answerable to the nation and the whole world about their actions. the have to minimise the collateral damage. They value human life.
A terrorist has no issues like this. They take cover of innocent people. To kill them they have to take lives of many innocents too. They have no respect for life. They are just illiterate, unemployed and brainwashed men.

That is why it is difficult for even a superpower like U.S.A. to defeat taliban. U.S.A. has nukes that can destroy the earth 10,000 times. Had not been the presence of innocent population in afghanistan, america would have bombed it to stone age.
Get the point?

 

[BATMAN]

When Mujahideen defeated Russia it was Pakistan and US behind them and USSR had less advance equipment... hence finally it pulled out.
Today, US have far more advance equipment and after carpet bombing the rag tag militia should have been vanished but this time this rag tag militia display that they have best intelligence network when the attack Pakistan army on the fornt and behind the front lines.
Your question is quite valid!

Don't ever believe a single man or a bunch of bullys can take on any state and in case of Afghanistan they are land locked.... and they mange to amass modern wepons accesss to sattelites maps and comminication.. and spoort of US drones.
I don't know why but i have the feeling that US drone attacks on terrorists are hogwash and in reality they support TTP attacking Pak army convoys.
Imagine how is it possible thousands of militia not only move freely in and out of border area but also remain invisible while they took hundreds of hostages with them.
Imagine how come rag tag militia have political influence over both govts. namely US and Afghanistan! they dictate terms of another third country namely Indinas! Both US and Afghanistan strongly rejected Pakistan's offer of fencing the border or mining it.. quite exactly to the aspiratoins of indians.
Imagine all attempts to controll the border are strongly discouraged by ANA.. they torture Afghanis infronto of Pak security for following any registration procedure for crossing in and out because it may creat difficulties for covert pro indian TTP operatives.
TTP use humvee and Pak army use isuzu!
In emergency UK helicopters evacuate key TTP leaders while our soldiers are on foot.
TTP had night vision long before when Pak army was openly denied and was asked to do more without night vision.
In past US drones took pot shot with hell fire at manned posts on higher positions formed to keep an eye on TTP movement.
In past Pakistan provided US with cordinates of TTP leaders but US refused to do so.
Imagine it is a land locked country and it is much easy to round up terorrists but surprisingly indian army planes are being used to ship their herion to Russia and from their on to Europe.

 

[salvation]

When Mujahideen defeated Russia it was Pakistan and US behind them and USSR had less advance equipment... hence finally it pulled out.
Today, US have far more advance equipment and after carpet bombing the rag tag militia should have been vanished but this time this rag tag militia display that they have best intelligence network when the attack Pakistan army on the fornt and behind the front lines.
Your question is quite valid!

Don't ever believe a single man or a bunch of bullys can take on any state and in case of Afghanistan they are land locked.... and they mange to amass modern wepons accesss to sattelites maps and comminication.. and spoort of US drones.
I don't know why but i have the feeling that US drone attacks on terrorists are hogwash and in reality they support TTP attacking Pak army convoys.
Imagine how is it possible thousands of militia not only move freely in and out of border area but also remain invisible while they took hundreds of hostages with them.
TTP use humvee and Pak army use isuzu!
In emergency UK helicopters evacuate key TTP leaders while our soldiers are on foot.
TTP had night vision long before when Pak army was openly denied and was asked to do more without night vision.
In past US drones took pot shot with hell fire at manned posts on higher positions formed to keep an eye on TTP movement.
In past Pakistan provided US with cordinates of TTP leaders but US refused to do so.
Imagine it is a land locked country and it is much easy to round up terorrists but surprisingly indian army planes are being used to ship their herion to Russia and from their on to Europe.

HELLO!
Ever heard the word "COLLATERAL DAMAGE"??
This is the single largest reason for the survival of all evil such as taliban, hamas,hizbullah.
Think.

 

[BATMAN]

Who care for colletral damage? B52 bombing cannot differentiate among children and adults.
While terrorists are only selective in their attacks and blessings.
Pakistan army and NATO are underattack and indians in same area are blessed for 10 long years!!!!

 

[Cynic Waheed]

Well Waheed there is another thing - US is fighting a war and there are civilians too where as if there was a real war between two countries.Each one would bomb each other without worrying about civilian deaths so guerrilla war would be dangerous because their mission would be to neutralize each side not to hold ground first.If you ask me even the current education budget is not being handled properly that we can see from reports from INTL organizations.Well for me the threat of war ended after May 28, 1998.

umm .. with all respect I dont get your point with regards to my POV. I dont care its guerella warfare or not, my take is that modern military gadgets dont win wars and your response is not answering me in that regards.
For the bolded part .. where u see no threat after May 28 1998, still our military budget has soured year on year.. why when apparently the threat should be reduced and we shd spend out efforts on nation building and properity!?

 

[Icarus]

And I dont like the way we use the word terrorists as a synonym with Taliban. I do hope u understand that some of these so called "terrorists" are fighting a legitimate war against the foreign occupiers. You can hardly label them terrorists can u?!

What are you trying to imply here ?

 

[Cynic Waheed]

According to military science In an insurgency(or guerilla warfare), numbers and technological advantage are multiplied by zero, because the enemy can blend in with the population and you cannot distinguish between enemy and civilian, even if you can manage to identify the enemy, he may be in a position where you risk massive collateral damage and can therefore not engage him. Now I may have the latest B-2 bomber or an F-16 for that matter but I can't target a militant installation in the middle of a packed neighbourhood, If I do, people will rally against me, and I don't ant that. On the other hand the Taliban can afford collateral damage because they are hardly going to rule people on a system based on freedom, any one who opposes or criticizes them..........off with his head, so they don't really care if they killed an innocent because they know his family will be in no position to oppose them, if they feel very sorry, they send the effected family a certificate that the Taliban endorse the martyrdom of this and this guy and we testify that he has a right to go to heaven, signed your friendly neighbourhood Taliban.

Got it ?

hmm makes sense. But without meaning to be rude im stuck at this point that isnt war about achieving targets and if you dont you simply havent won? now am not arguing about the warfare tactics but if this kind of militant tactics (the likes of taliban) can win u ur objectives or can cause ur opponents not the achieve theirs... then what good are there gadgets if they cant win u the stated objectives?

see what am saying?

 

[Cynic Waheed]

What are you trying to imply here ?

How wd u react in US invaded Pakistan?