World Turbofan Aircraft Engines

[Martian2]

19 tons (or 190 KiloNewtons) of wet thrust (which means with afterburner)

19.1 tons (for F-35/JSF) - Pratt & Whitney F135 (in service 2009 - dates are approximate).
Important note: F135 has a high bypass ratio and F-35 cannot supercruise.

18 tons of wet thrust

18 tons (for J-20) - China's WS-15 ("Initial Operational Capability"/IOC 2020. Successful prototype operation in 2005). WS-15 has a low bypass ratio and J-20 can supercruise.

15 tons of wet thrust

15.6 tons (for F-22) - Pratt & Whitney F119 (IOC 2004). F119 has a low bypass ratio and F-22 can supercruise.

15.5 tons - China's WS-10G (Global Security believes it was installed on J-20 prototype in 2011)

14 tons of wet thrust

14.5 tons (for T-50/Pak-Fa) - AL-41F (in service 2010)

13 tons of wet thrust

13.2 tons (for J-10, J-11, and J-15) - China's WS-10A (in service 2009)

13.2 tons (for Russian Su-30) - AL-31FM1 (in service 2007)

12 tons of wet thrust

12.5 tons (for J-10A) - AL-31FN (in service 2002)

8 tons of wet thrust

8.9 tons (for Eurofighter Typhoon) - Eurojet EJ200 (in service 1991)

7 tons of wet thrust

7.5 tons (for French Rafale) - Snecma M88-2 (in service 1996)

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References:

F135 (US): Pratt & Whitney F135 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

WS-15 (China): WS15

WS-15

F119 (US): F119-PW-100

Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

WS-10G (China): J-15 (Jianjiji-15 Fighter aircraft 15) / F-15

Shenyang WS-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

AL-41F (Russia): Sukhoi Flankers - The Shifting Balance of Regional Air Power

Saturn AL-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

WS-10A (China): Shenyang WS-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

AL-31FM1 (Russia): Saturn AL-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

AL-31FN (Russia): Saturn AL-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

EJ200 (European consortium): Eurojet EJ200 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

M88-2 (France): http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/snecma-m88-51979/

Snecma M88 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Citation for high bypass turbofans and subsonic speed from Global Security.

Military Aviation Engines

"High bypass turbofans, meaning bypass ratios in the range of 5 to 9, power virtually all transports designed to cruise at high subsonic speeds. High bypass ratio engines provide increased takeoff thrust, low environmental noise, and low specific fuel consumption. The development of the first high bypass ratio turbofans, the TF39 for the C-5A and the JT9D for the Boeing 747, required nearly doubling the cycle pressure ratio from the 12:1 of the JT3/J79 series of jets, and increasing the turbine inlet temperature.

The newest high bypass turbofans have cycle pressure ratios greater than 40:1 and have been made possible by advancements in high temperature materials and cooling technology. In a general sense, increases in hot section materials capability and turbine cooling techniques have paced the development of high pressure ratio engines. Today, turbofans range in size from small missile engines by Teledyne and Williams International, to behemoths in the 100,000 pound thrust class for large transports."

Secondary citation on high bypass ratio turbofan engine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overall_pressure_ratio#Examples

"Military engines are often forced to work under conditions that maximize the heating load. For instance, the General Dynamics F-111 was required to operate at speeds of Mach 1.1 at sea level. As a side-effect of these wide operating conditions, and generally older technology in most cases, military engines typically have lower overall pressure ratios. The Pratt & Whitney TF30 used on the F-111 had a pressure ratio of about 20:1, while newer engines like the General Electric F110 and Pratt & Whitney F135 have improved this to about 30:1.

An additional issue is weight: a higher compression ratio implies a heavier engine, which in turn costs fuel to carry around. Thus, for a particular construction technology and set of flight plans an optimal overall pressure ratio can be determined."

[Note: Thank you to ChineseTiger1986 for highlighting the issue of high bypass ratio for non-supercruising F-35 and low bypass ratio for supercruising F-22 and J-20.]

 

[SXNJ]

thanks for your great inforamtion

 

[Martian2]

thanks for your great inforamtion

Actually, I was shocked after I put together the list. China jumped many intermediate and weaker-performing engines.

The first truly Chinese indigenous turbofan engine debuted at 13.2 tons?!

I'll do more research and try to figure out whether the WS-10A came before or after the WS-13. Still though, I had no idea China had come so far. No wonder the Americans keep screaming about cyber-espionage. China's achievement is unbelievable.

I'm a little stunned. I'll look into the issue and try to piece together what happened. How in the world did China move this far and fast? I know you can't buy the technology. However, it appears that China skipped a lot of the lower-thrust engines. It's a puzzle that I will ponder over.

My current theory is that modern Chinese petaflop supercomputers greatly accelerated China's development of a new high-performance turbofan jet engine.

 

[rashtriya.rifles]

China has come off age but it would be more sensible if u can compare the engines based on core size/weight etc.. eg 160KN wet thrust engine by prat and whitney maybe smaller and lighter than a similar engine by China..

 

[Martian2]

China has come off age but it would be more sensible if u can compare the engines based on core size/weight etc.. eg 160KN wet thrust engine by prat and whitney maybe smaller and lighter than a similar engine by China..

Thrust-to-weight (TW) ratio benchmark. WS-10A: TW 7.5 , AL-31F: TW 7.8

In general, the Chinese turbofan engines are probably pretty close in thrust-to-weight (TW) ratio to other engines of their weight class. For example, the WS-10A and AL-31F have a TW that differ by only 4%. For your information, a higher TW signifies a more advanced turbofan engine (e.g. it is more efficient unless supercruise becomes an issue).

Pratt & Whitney F135 (for F-35): TW 11.47 (19.1 tons of thrust)
[Important note: CANNOT supercruise due to high bypass ratio (HBR) and thus not comparable to WS-15 and F119 engines for J-20 and F-22 respectively.]

China's WS-15 (for J-20): TW 9 to 10 (18 tons of thrust)

Pratt & Whitney F119 (for F-22): TW 7.95 (15.6 tons of thrust)

China's WS-10G: TW 9.0 (15.5 tons of thrust)

China's WS-10A: TW 7.5 (13.2 tons of thrust)

Russian AL-31F: TW 7.8 (13.2 tons of thrust)

GE F110 (for F-14, F-15, and F-16): TW 6.36 (12.5 tons of thrust)

The following two GE turbofan engines have different levels of thrust and are not directly comparable to the WS-10A and AL-31F. However, it gives you a ballpark figure for the TW for American engines.

China's (upgraded) WS-13: TW 7.8 (10 tons of thrust)

GE F414: TW 9 (9.8 tons of thrust)

GE F404: TW 7.8 (7.9 tons of thrust)

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References:

Pratt & Whitney F135: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_&_Whitney_F135#Specifications_.28F135-PW-100.29

WS-15 and WS-10G: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_aircraft_engines

Pratt & Whitney F119: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_&_Whitney_F119

WS-10A: Shenyang WS-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

AL-31F: Saturn AL-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

GE F110: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_F110#Specifications_.28F110.29

WS-13 (upgraded): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guizhou_WS-13#Specifications_.28WS-13.29

GE F414: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_F414#Specifications_.28F414-400.29

GE F404: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_F404#Specifications_.28F404-GE-402.29

[Note: ChineseTiger1986 says, "the TW of AL-31F is calculated with its dry weight, while that of WS-10A is not calculated with its dry weight."]

 

[Chinese Century]

awesome thread!

thanks martian.

 

[shuttler]

I have archived your thread and will make useful reference to the quoted sources from time to time! Great efforts Martian2!

Hey Mod: Give Martian2 a promotion will you?

 

[Martian2]

Explaining the counter-intuitive results: Why do Chinese turbofan engines have higher thrust-to-weight ratios than American engines?

If you looked carefully at the comparison of the different thrust-to-weight (TW) ratios for the Chinese and American turbofan engines, you must have been surprised at the higher TW for Chinese engines. I will try to explain this counter-intuitive result (e.g. Isn't America the technology leader?).

1. The F-22 engine was designed and built a couple of decades ago. The materials technology and supercomputers back then were more limited. Thus, a latecomer can design a superior engine like the Chinese WS-10G and WS-15 with higher TW.

2. Can the U.S. design an even higher TW turbofan engine than China? Yes, but I think only marginally. However, the more important question is: "Will it happen?" The answer is definitely not.

Firstly, the F-22 was canceled. The U.S. will not spend billions to redesign an engine for a terminated aircraft. Secondly, the U.S. military budget is being slashed by $45 to $105 billion annually starting next year. There's no money.

Thirdly, with 187 F-22s built, it is a tiny fleet. I'm guessing the engine for the F-22 is a custom-fit and not suitable for other aircraft. This means the lack of economy of scale argues against developing a more fuel-efficient engine for the F-22.

3. You must have noticed the wide variety of American turbofan engines. The United States behaves just like General Motors. GM had 64 different side-view mirrors for its cars. Toyota had only three (e.g. for large chassis, mid-size chassis, and small chassis). We see a replay of the GM vs. Toyota philosophy in American vs. Chinese turbofan engines.

America spreads its scarce research and development dollars over a huge range of engines. There is an even wider variety, because the U.S. builds down-graded engines and fighter aircraft for export. Since the U.S. has to support a massive diversity of engines, I think there's little money left over to upgrade them. It costs too much and there are too many engines to upgrade.

China seems to have only four indigenous turbofan engines (e.g. WS-9, WS-10A, WS-10G, and WS-15). China can focus all of its resources on optimizing these four engines. In contrast, the American approach is diluted. We notice there are TWO different American engine manufacturers (e.g. Pratt & Whitney and GE) with competing products.

 

[Roybot]

Whats the source for WS-15 specification?

WS15

This article is a joke, talks more about AL-41 and its shortcomings and hardly anything about WS-15. Most probably written by MArtian2 and his ilk.

Another bs thread.

 

[Safriz]

There was a video of J-10B taking off with WS-10B engine,and the short take off clearly showed the power of the engine..
Yes china is fast forwarding in every thing and soon will leave everybody behind.

 

[Martian2]

Whats the source for WS-15 specification?

WS15

This article is a joke, talks more about AL-41 and its shortcomings and hardly anything about WS-15. Most probably written by MArtian2 and his ilk.

Another bs thread.

Are you kidding? Global Security is a well-respected organization. Everybody in America knows John Pike from the Federation of American Scientists. The television channels used to constantly interview John Pike on network TV. John Pike is far more famous than Richard Fisher (despite his numerous testimonies in front of Congress).

Every time I turned around, John Pike was on network TV about once a week providing expert analysis.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GlobalSecurity.org

"GlobalSecurity.org is a public policy organization focusing on the fields of defense, space exploration, intelligence, weapons of mass destruction and homeland security. The organization's office is located in Alexandria, Virginia. The organization was founded in 2000 by John E. Pike, who serves as its director.

The organization's website provides news and analysis on weapons systems and industry, as well as guides and directories of military and space related programs, entities, and facilities. GlobalSecurity.org also provides political documents, including legislative reports, political debates, hearings, and other materials, some of which is available online elsewhere, but which GlobalSecurity.org states that it processes and collates to make more accessible to its readers.

The website aims at news reporters, but also policymakers and the public. The website is behind a MyPressPlus paywall. Eight articles are free per month, beyond which a monthly subscription fee of $9.95 is charged.

The website is known for its "Where are the Carriers?" page, which gives status reports as to the whereabouts of U.S. aircraft carriers. Forbes.com reviewed the site as part of their "Best of the Web" directory. While praising GlobalSecurity.org for its "depth of military information" it criticized the basic graphics and that the site contained some dead links.[2]

History

GlobalSecurity.org, created in 2000, was originally a fork of http://www.fas.org, the website of the Federation of American Scientists, the former employer of GlobalSecurity.org's founder, John E. Pike. It uses some of Pike's content originally on the FAS site.[3]"

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http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/staff/pike.htm

"John Pike, one of the world's leading experts on defense, space and intelligence policy, is Director of GlobalSecurity.org, which he founded in December 2000. GlobalSecurity.org is focused on innovative approaches to the emerging security challenges of the new millennium. Internationally renowned for his depth of knowledge on a broad array of issues, Pike is widely noted for his ability to translate complex technical information into concise and pithy soundbites. He has consistently provided insight and understanding of world affairs, military, space and satellite technology to policy makers, the press and the public at large.

Pike previously worked for nearly two decades with the Federation of American Scientists, where he directed the Space Policy, Cyberstrategy, Military Analysis, Nuclear Resource and Intelligence Resource projects. Pike developed the Federation's award winning website, and was personally responsible for creating most of the site's online content. He has also been at the forefront of utilizing satellite imagery to monitor worldwide weapons facilities.

Frequently called upon to testify before Congress, Pike in 1983 established the Space Policy Working Group, comprised of Congressional staff and advocacy organizations concerned with missile defense issues. Ten years later, he set up the Military Spending Group, composed of public interest organizations working on alternative security strategies. Pike helped form the National Campaign to Save the ABM Treaty, and served on its Executive Committee. He is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations, and has served on a variety of non-governmental boards and advisory committees, including the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, the Peace Research and European Security Studies Center, and the Verification Technology Information Centre of London. He has been a consultant to numerous groups, including the United Nations Group of Government Experts on Confidence Building Measures in Outer Space. In 1991 he participated in the NASA International Near-Earth Object (NEO) Detection Panel, and served as a consultant to the NEO Working Group of the International Astronomical Union.

Pike regularly provides commentary and analysis on space and security issues to PBS, CNN, MSNBC, Fox, ABC, CBS, NBC, BBC, NPR, and numerous print and online publications. Aerospace Weekly called him "one of the country's most credible space industry observers," and the Christian Science Monitor wrote that he was "one of the handful of American observers equally conversant with both the technological and political aspects of strategic defense and arms control." In 1986 the National Journal named Pike as one of the 150 "People Who Make a Difference" in Washington. In 1988 U.S. News and World Report, citing his work on space and defense, listed him among the 250 members of the "New American Establishment." And in 1994 he was named one of the 25 "Rising Stars Who Will Lead us into the Next Space Age" by the National Space Society's Ad Astra magazine.

In 1991 Pike received the "Public Service Award" of the Federation of American Scientists, and in 1997 he was presented with the Open Source "Award of the Golden Candle" for his work on intelligence related issues. The author of more than 200 studies and articles on national security and space, Pike began his career as a political consultant and science writer."

 

[Roybot]

Are you kidding? Global Security is a well-respected organization. Everybody in America knows John Pike from the Federation of American Scientists. The television channels used to constantly interview John Pike on network TV. John Pike is far more famous than Richard Fisher (despite his numerous testimonies in front of Congress).

GlobalSecurity.org - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Please tell why the WS 15 talks only about the AL-41 engine then, rather belittle AL-41 engine.

WS15 turbofan
The core engine for the WS-15 engine was first tested in April 2005. The demonstrater was developed successfully and the prototype WS-15 was running smoothly. China is undoubtedly far behind Russian engine technology. Nonetheless, China has produced the WS-9 engine for the JH-7, the WS-10A engine for J-10, and the WS-15 for the new J-20 fourth generation stealth fighter. The WS-9 and WS-10A were both usable, and without the WS-10A China would not have negotiated J-10 orders with PAF.

No technical detail about the Engine

Although specifications of the Russian T-50 fifth-generation fighter remain undisclosed, prototypes and the first production aircraft will be fitted with 117S (AL-41F1A) turbofan engines, a major upgrade of the AL-31F engine from Russian aircraft engine manufacturer NPO Saturn. The most advanced fighter engine is the that of the F-22 which has a T/W ratio of 11, while the engine of the EF2000 and Refale has a T/W ratio of 9-10. These engines are usually called the 4rd generation engines. The 3rd generation engine of the SU-27 variants has a T/W ratio of less than 8, while the engine of the Mirage 2000 has a T/W ratio of 6.5, the poorest performance of an engine adopted by a 3rd generation aircraft.

No mention of WS-15

Production for current generation, design for next generation and advanced research for future generation are running through the central line of China's armament development, so it is can be affirmed that China is developing a more powerful engine from WS-10 for a chrysalis? China's fourth generation fighter, counterparts to the F-22 and F-35 made in China.

No technical detail

The well-known AL-31F is from Soviet source and notorious for low MTBF. The UK plans to cooperate with U.S in the F119 engine which will be used in F-35. However, these two countries are in dispute for technology transformation. After the M-88-3 for Rafael, there are no engine development projects in France's schedule. The fewer players in the fighter engine competition tell a truth that no one single country can endure the black hole of money and time for engine development. Russia, UK and France have to quit the game or cooperate with others. By holding abundant financing and advanced technologies, The US has been being the strongest player who is investing on future aviation engines. Now a new player participate this expensive game.

No mention of WS-15, talking down AL-41

China's GPD has become the 2nd in the world and its foreign exchange reserve has surpassed Japan and became the Top one. China's air transport is growing in double digits. Besides, China's geopolitics condition, like in Korean peninsula and Taiwan Strait, wwere serious bad to breaking military conflicts in any moments. Therefor, China had motivation and power (money) to develop aviation engine from the strategic view. China and United States may be the only two nations who provide more fund to engine projects. From WS-10 engine, the great ambitious strategy of China is so clear.

No technical detail, usless bragging about China, typo.

But China's road to great engine manufacturer is still long. The WS-10, whose thrust to weight ratio is likely under 8, it as a whole better than the AL-31F. Even the WS-10 catches up the F-110, it is still a product of 1980s level technology. China's gap with the US remains at least 20 years. In the production of materials for engine, China has countless problems to be solved. The more serious factor is from the unchanged disadvantages of China's military industry. For a long time, rigidified managing structure of the state owned military enterprises, compared with Chinese private companies, were terrible in production efficiency and quality control. Several severe accidents were all caused by those soft spots. Although the investment grew after 1999, the state's manufacturers need a long time to become competitive enterprises.

Again no mention of WS-15, somehow claiming that Chinese engine is better than the Russian one.

A military industrial journal, Aviation Engine, once published an article that there are totally 24 WS-10 demonstration engines after 15 years's production in 2001, less two per year. It also said that the processing period of WS-10 first stage fan blade requires 10-12 months in China, and similar product only 6-8 months in Rolls-Royce. Even thought WS-10's success is not a propaganda trick, people have doubt if Chinese enterprises can satisfy the need of PLA Airforce. In case China decided to enter mass-production, WS-10 possibly shows poor quality, and otherwise low performance. As a matter of fact, after the bearing failures accident in 2004, AVIC I Deputy General Manager Lin Zuoming who was in charge of WS-10 project, once told research staff to produce an available WS-10 engine to end this hard and long project. Perhaps, today's WS-10 doesn't have the expected performance and will be continuously improved.

Chinese state owned manufacturers have lots of disadvantages, but they find ways to become contractors for oversea aviation giants, like Boeing and Airbus, and learn too much in project management. Besides, China armed forces now can open some equipment production to private companies, even some foreign registered companies owned by Chinese people. The significance of WS-10 which is like China's first Atomic Bomb in 1966. It proved that China has ability to produce turbofan engine. If China can keep its economic growth and unswervingly invest on an opening and healthy aviation industry, her aviation engine manufacturing level will likely to exceed Russian, France and Germany, then narrow to tiny gap with United Stages in next 15 to 20 years.

No technical detail, irrelevant bragging.

Am quite sure this "article" is written by either you or your ilk.

 

[Martian2]

Please tell why the WS 15 talks only about the AL-41 engine then, rather belittle AL-41 engine.

No technical detail about the Engine

No mention of WS-15

No technical detail

No mention of WS-15, talking down AL-41

No technical detail, usless bragging about China, typo.

Again no mention of WS-15, somehow claiming that Chinese engine is better than the Russian one.

No technical detail, irrelevant bragging.

Am quite sure this "article" is written by either you or your ilk.

You're a nutcase. I'm ignoring you.

If you want more detailed information, pay a subscription to Jane's.

 

[Roybot]

You're a nutcase. I'm ignoring you.

If you want more detailed information, pay a subscription to Jane's.

Lol I do have access to Jane's defence, point me to the article which gives the claimed thrust figure for WS 15(18 T). Am waiting.

 

[Martian2]

Lol I do have access to Jane's defence, point me to the article which gives the claimed thrust figure for WS 15(18 T). Am waiting.

If you're not satisfied with Global Security, that is your problem.

Here's a secondary citation from Richard Fisher at IASC.

http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.265/pub_detail.asp

"5th Generation “WS-15” Turbofan The China Gas Turbine Establishment (GTE) apparently is also leading the development of the 5th gen turbofan that will power the Chengdu “J-20” 5th gen fighters. While this engine apparently was not ready for the start of the J-20 prototype’s test program, it is believed to have leveraged advances contributing to 4th generation engines and is usually described as a 15 ton (33,000 lbs) thrust class engine. In late 2009 a Russian official stated that China was developing an 18 ton (39,600 lbs) thrust engine.[15] It is not clear if this could be a developed version of the GTE engine or a separate program. This engine will very likely have an axisymmetric thrust vectoring system.
...
[15] Interview, Dubai Airshow, November 2009."