Women: Pakistan’s second-class citizens

[bad boy 8]

What a pathetic thread ! Men are the second class citizens of Pakistan,Women get better treatment than us..I have always felt this way guys....Now Think ! In Pakistan,women want to do the same things as men,fair enough...they want to do anything they want,go to cricket games,roam about etc BUT when it comes to doing the tough part of our lives ,they say "hum tou aurtain hain,humein islam nay mana kia hai" ... I remember when i visited england in 2007,i cannot explain how hardworking these gori's are,they are not dependent on anyone,they handle the tough part too so have complete right to do whatever they want but our culture is ALREADY giving women so much protection and privileges that i dont know what else they want...If they want the same rights as gori's they must become hardworking like them,In the west,a pregnant woman runs to catch a bus ! but in Pakistan a pregnant woman lives like a celebrity for 9 months

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

A non patriarchal society educates and empowers its women and trusts them to make their own choices and be responsible for themselves.... Whether it is to have multiple sex partners, whether she gets pregnant, falls in love, decides to do a job or decides to stay at home.... She has the freedom and opportunity to make all those choices and is expected to take responsibility for the consequences....very similar to the freedom a man would want. I, as a woman, do not look for guarantees that I will be happy.... But I would much rather lead a life where I know that my happiness or misery is a consequence of my own choices instead of someone else's decisions about my life, that I am free to decide my own path. I also do not want to be someone else's symbol of honor or barometer of morality because that is again my objectification. There is much more joy in knowing that I am capable and empowered to take care of myself as against the feeling of being dependent on someone else for my financial needs and safety.

I agree with most points in your post but there is nothing called free choices

for example if a man in our scoety wish to stay at home and raise kids instead of working hard outside all day and evening then would his wife/society/religion/family would accept his choice and let him stay at home by asking his wife to earn for all family member ?

Answer is No..men in our society has to work whether he like it or not

Many women in western countries also have no option to stay at home even if they wish so because they don't have anyone to support them so they are forced to work without any choice

Many women in poor countries also work in factories/farms not because they are fond of it but because they want to bring food for their family and has no option of staying at home. Its our circumstances who dictate our decisions or choices. I think its more easy and comfortable for men to have a women who share all his responsibilities than having a wife/gf who depend on him all his life for everything so western men has less burden of respoenbilities on their shoulder as compare to men in our society

 

[Sv01]

I agree with most points in your post but there is nothing called free choices

for example if a man in our scoety wish to stay at home and raise kids instead of working hard outside all day and evening then would his wife/society/religion/family would accept his choice and let him stay at home by asking his wife to earn for all family member ?

Answer is No..men in our society has to work whether he like it or not

Many women in western countries also have no option to stay at home even if they wish so because they don't have anyone to support them so they are forced to work without any choice

Many women in poor countries also work in factories/farms not because they are fond of it but because they want to bring food for their family and has no option of staying at home. Its our circumstances who dictate our decisions or choices. I think its more easy and comfortable for men to have a women who share all his responsibilities than having a wife/gf who depend on him all his life for everything so western men has less burden of respoenbilities on their shoulder as compare to men in our society

So your point about society not accepting a man to be stay-at-home dad is again going to the same point that we are living in a patriarchal society. Leave aside the society, even the man would feel less 'manly' and would not want to be in that situation. And yet I would argue that it is a much better situation when you are expected to be financially independent, when you are encouraged to be educated and be responsible for your own life and well-being versus where you are expected to do the reverse. I, even as a woman, would always always choose financial independence, working hard and taking care of myself instead of being dependent on another. Once a person tastes the sense of self-dependence and achievement, it becomes very hard to step back to a dependent status and I have seen many women who became extremely frustrated after leaving jobs and decided to return to workforce.

You say men have more burdens in our societies and yet our women prefer to live and work in west where they are expected to work hard, build their own careers, not expect any favors on account of their gender, etc etc. why then women are struggling and have been struggling to get more rights, to build their own individuality, to participate in the corporate world, to be a part of political platform, etc etc. Why are they so miserable when they are getting lesser share of problems?

Your point about women having to work because they do not have the option to stay at home is a moot point. Why should I expect to stay back and not do my fair share of work. And a non patriarchal society would not build that expectation in their women. Similarly such society would not also encourage domination of men by women, it would not accept the behavior where women are considered possessions, are ignored or are expected to live their lives as per man's wishes.

I never said there is a free lunch. If you again read my previous post, you will understand that when I mentioned freedom I also mentioned taking responsibility for consequences of that. And I am saying all this from my own experience.... I decided to make my own choices in life and yes I went through some very bad times as a result...including poverty, misery, isolation, etc and yet I have not regretted that because all of that resulted from my own decisions so even as I faced those challenges I was still feeling strong and motivated, and what I learnt from those and the sense of achievement I felt after overcoming those challenges were the biggest rewards.

I have seen women who have always stayed at home and women who have had careers. Their is a world of difference, in general, in the level of confidence, productivity, efficiency and ability to navigate through the world. Why would you not want your wife, daughters, other women in your life not be brought up with the goal to be as confident, as self-dependent, as aware and capable?

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

So your point about society not accepting a man to be stay-at-home dad is again going to the same point that we are living in a patriarchal society. Leave aside the society, even the man would feel less 'manly' and would not want to be in that situation

Yea sure put all blame on man just like feminists does but our society/women also expect from man to take the finiancial responsibility of family. Women have this option of working or staying at home but men dont have this option of staying at home even if they wish. Wife insult such husband and give them this label of Nakama(uselss) guy if he dont work or dont bring any income. Thsese are family women who will consider him shameless or less man if he dont fulfill this role

I, even as a woman, would always always choose financial independence, working hard and taking care of myself instead of being dependent on another. Once a person tastes the sense of self-dependence and achievement, it becomes very hard to step back to a dependent status and I have seen many women who became extremely frustrated after leaving jobs and decided to return to workforce.

Madam, its your thinking but there are women out there who wish to stay at home and raise kids There are women out there who want to depend on men. I have seen english women here in uk who are struggling to manage career and kids and wish to stay at home but they cannot afford to give up their jobs because they need money. If you give them money which they get from jobs then they would love to leave their jobs and would love to spend more time with family. There are many women in uk who rely on state child benefits even when they options of work.

You ignored my point that many women or even men go for work not because of freedom or passion for work but because they need money. Western men dont give all their salary to their wives to run the house and spend as they wish. I still remeber my father used to gave all his salary to my mother and even took money from her for cigarettes or personal expenses. Western men expect women to contribute equally in everything from wedding expenses to paying rent/bills so they have no option there. You need money to afford luxiries and holidays

You say men have more burdens in our societies and yet our women prefer to live and work in west where they are expected to work hard, build their own careers, not expect any favors on account of their gender, etc etc. why then women are struggling and have been struggling to get more rights, to build their own individuality, to participate in the corporate world, to be a part of political platform, etc etc. Why are they so miserable when they are getting lesser share of problems??
Your point about women having to work because they do not have the option to stay at home is a moot point. Why should I expect to stay back and not do my fair share of work. And a non patriarchal society would not build that expectation in their women.

I dont know which women you are talking about because i have seen very few desi women who are working but most of them stay at home while their husband working overtime to give better life to their wife and childerns. our desi men dont force women for work but instaed they will do double shift to manage the expenses of family . I am sure they will never stop women if they wish to work and want to share finacial responsbility of their husband. Your thinking is wrong that all desi men hate if their wives go for work but you assume that all desi women love to go for work and want to be independent which is not the case because even many western women love to rely on men and go for rich dude for easy life

Similarly such society would not also encourage domination of men by women, it would not accept the behavior where women are considered possessions, are ignored or are expected to live their lives as per man's wishes.?

co-operaion with your partner should not be labeled as domination. Partners do respect the wishes of each others and its true for boht men and women if we leave our egos aside but i undertsand this approach of feminist who conider woman sucessful only if she compete with men in everything and those women who cooperate with men are oppressed ones/weak ones. You should have a visit in pakistan and you will be surprised to see that women from middle and upper class working in every filed if they prefer to go for contributing something for family/country. Even women from poor class are working in fields/farms/factories because they dont have any source of income. There are plenty of female politicians, teachers, doctors,lawyers, nurses, air hostess, models/actress etc in male dominated pakistan lol Your USA never had any female prime minister but we had one so please stop painting every man with same brush

I decided to make my own choices in life and yes I went through some very bad times as a result...including poverty, misery, isolation, etc and yet I have not regretted that because all of that resulted from my own decisions so even as I faced those challenges I was still feeling strong and motivated, and what I learnt from those and the sense of achievement I felt after overcoming those challenges were the biggest rewards..?

good for you and i am happy that you are self-made person irrespective of whether you are male or female? Its always better to rely on your abilities than depending on others but at the same time i dont see anything wrong if some women feel peace/happiness in relying on their partners or if their men are happy to give them finiancial support if their women are not willing to go for hassle of work

I have seen women who have always stayed at home and women who have had careers. Their is a world of difference, in general, in the level of confidence, productivity, efficiency and ability to navigate through the world. Why would you not want your wife, daughters, other women in your life not be brought up with the goal to be as confident, as self-dependent, as aware and capable?

I agree there are few differences when it come to boldness, knowledge and awareness. I am not sure whether you had working or staying at home mother? I had staying at home mother who was not educated enough but she played huge role in our development. I am sure my sisters never managed to complete their master degrees if my mother dont stay at home or If she dont do everything for us so that we can concentrate more on study. My father still recognise and appreciate all her efforts and sacrifices and no its not domination but its love and care for your dear ones.

My sister was professor and she had passion for teaching and her husband did let her continue but she realised that she could not manage and focus on boht career and family so she gave up her career for kids and she did not became any less woman or human being in doing so . I would love to stay at home, rest ane raise my kids and be with them most of the time but will my wife be happy in swapping these roles ? its question mark ? She might give me islamic lecture which mention that its obligaoty for men to take financial responsbility of famil;y while women can sit at home or can work but it will be their personal money and they still can demand money from their husband for kids/personal expenses

 

[krash]

we do know. because thats not how statistics work... not one particularly demented act but on average how many ofences occur...
apparently you have higher chance being raped there...

Actually according to many researches done, some Muslim countries (in which Pakistan was included) have the lowest rape chance in the world.

On Topic:

The men of Karak would be better served by mass castrations. I mean, na rahay ga bans na bajay gi bansuri, pun intended.

Over the years, we have allowed our values to be subverted by Middle Eastern culture, which is brought over from Pakistanis working in the region. While driving through Skardu last year, I saw several signs stating “dear sisters, hijab is our culture. Be considerate so that you are respected”. Hijab has never been a part of our culture; women who observe purdah have traditionally worn a chador. If women choose not to wear the hijab, niqab, burqa or chador, then that is their choice and should be respected.

I'm sorry Ms. but now your just being unreasonable. Firstly, by the "hijab" that you read they meant a chadar, not taut around your neck but a loose hanging casual chadar. A dupatta would have been fine. Just like their own women wear and have worn for many many years. Those boards are for the foreigners who would find it hard understanding what a chadar is.

Next, you have to understand and respect the culture of the people who's land you are visiting. You can't be arrogant enough to disregard the way they live their lives in their own land. I would be fine with a french lady coming to my house in a back-less top with a mini skirt beneath but my mom wouldn't really like it. Every spot on the planet has its own customs and traditions and if you want to visit them you'd best respect them. Please don't make this about women because its not. I was once coming back from Karimabad through the Chillas-Naran road when my parents, unexpectedly, decided to spend a night in Balakot. It was summer time and I was relaxing in the back seat with my shorts on. Long story short, forgetfully I went out in the market for a stroll in my shorts. After a few stares I realized my mistake, took the back allies to my hotel and changed into something "less revealing".

You don't need to be in Karak to be made to feel like a second class citizen.

The men and women in Pakistan will re-inforce this every single day.

Our society cannot be changed and this is how it will remain. The only thing that can be done is to suffer in silence or leave this country.

Not true. I know, am related to and am friends with quite a lot of women who would not fit in this category at all. The point not being that things are fine and dandy but that things can be changed. One thing that at least I believe is that women in Pakistan do hold a certain level of respect in the society. You can't misbehave with a woman, aurat ghar ki izzat, integral part of the home and at times the ruler, if you're a woman you get the seat, an inaccurate claim by a woman of misbehavior by a man and suddenly everyone there is her brother and the man goes home without his clothes, women get separate everything, so on and so forth, as opposed to them being considered out-rightly useless and impotent and needing to compete with men on the same bases with lesser opportunities as is the case in other parts of the world. This makes the job for change a little easier. The problem here is that women are considered weak and then there's all this talk about empowering them. And so you see them "protected" by their own men. It needs to be realized that women are not weak at all and are in fact innately quite powerful. This needs to be realized by the men of the family. For example, don't be out there guarding your women like guard dogs, instead make your daughters and sisters strong enough that if someone misbehaves with them they can handle the idiot themselves. Make yourself and then them realize that they are strong enough all by themselves. Like I said, I know these sort of women. All they got were the right kind of people to raise them, the anti-women powers, so to speak, outside the house in Pakistan aren't strong enough to hold them after this. What is so fragile in a woman that won't break in a man when he goes out? And this respect also needs to be reduced a little. It makes their own women a very touchy matter for the men here.

The neanderthals who physically abuse women or don't keep them in any regard are a different issue all together and there is no discussion as to what should be made of them. The things which you see in places like Karak can only be fought with education. This isn't the only problem they've got.