Woah! INS Viraat To Remain In Service Till 2018

[Capt.Popeye]

Yaara in terms of an aircraft, its serviceability is measured by its TTSL. So if by vintage you mean that they may not be serviceable or safe to fly then that's not really apt or accurate. If the babies were "zero-lifed" so to say then they are good to fly. That's all there is to it.

Now the term "vintage" only applies to the design of the fighter and its components. Not to mention that what @Capt.Popeye was getting at earlier was that the Harrier can simply out-turn the 29s, not a very surprising thing since a lower cruising speed will translate into better turning performance in a merge. Obviously as a complete system it cannot compete with a 29-K.

Some errors in your statement there. The Harrier can out-turn the MiG-29 not because it is slower; but because it is intrinsically designed to be extremely manueverable far more than most fixed wing aircraft. It is the only fixed wing aircraft that can perform like a Helo; because of its design. When the Harrier performed at Air-Shows; it elicited many more "oohs and aahs" than the Pugachev Cobra. Now it seems passe only because the Harrier has been around for long enough.

Now about the Harriers vis-a-vis Fulcrums; the IN Harriers have successfully fought off IAF Fulcrums in Exercise(s) in WVR manuevers. That should say something on whether it can compete with Fulcrums or not. The design of the Harrier was far ahead of its time when it was created, it is not out-dated now. It is just a niche aircraft.

All in all;the Harriers are neither extinct or really vintage as our colleague Sergi would like to think. Ask the USMC about that; though they are lining up a replacement.

 

[Black Widow]

hahahaha again.

Let me write it more clear

My question was simple if we are operating carrier till 2018 will SH be enough to tackle any 4/4.5 Gen threat they will face ???

And which 4.5 Gen fighter you think is threat to Indian Navy???


I don't think you are seeing the real picture.. The Plan of Navy. Next Year Vikadi will come, IN is looking to form 2 CBG group, one with Vikadi (Flagship) another with INS Vikrant.

When IAC-I will come in 2017-18, The old man will retire... IN wants 2 CBG irrespective of there capability...



IN: Something is better than nothing...
IAF: we will die of hunger but will not accept any thing lesser than F22..

 

[Capt.Popeye]

This ship's actual military utility is already pretty limited however as a means to keep ACC operations fresh in the IN's institutional knowledge base this ship is vital until the IAC-1 comes into service. One really cannot underplay the importance knowledge of ACC operations plays. Having an ACC is all well and good but you need a well trained and experienced crew embarked otherwise you are in for a whole world of hurt. As the IN wants to be operating 2 CBGs come 2020, it cannot afford to let the Viraat go out of service before 2018 now.



I think this is the key point. With the IAF's long-range SU-30MKIs with IFR and Buddy-Buddy refueling capabilities the actual military utility of some LUSH SHs is limited in the context of Pakistan.

Funny that you should directly come to the conclusion that you have there. What has been the primary function of the INS Viraat and its Harriers? Or the earlier Carrier. Nothing that the IAF has taken over.

Can it be modified into a missile boat ?

Can it be modified into a troop-carrier?

 

[Sergi]

All in all;the Harriers are neither extinct or really vintage as our colleague Sergi would like to think. Ask the USMC about that; though they are lining up a replacement.

Two things
- are we using the SH same as RAF or USMC ??? I am pretty sure we are not still want to confirm from you

- secondly ,in hypothetical scenario , if IN want to operate another jet form Viraat what are the options excluding F-35s

 

[Manindra]

Can it be modified into a missile boat ?

Brother what do you want to argue?

Well it can also operate as helicopter carrier.

 

[Black Widow]

Brother what do you want to argue?

Well it can also operate as helicopter carrier.

Bro, It was discussed earlier and the conclusion was , "Viraat is too old, operating is as Helo carrier will not be better optional." Once its retire, it will retire. It won't be used as anything else...

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Two things
- are we using the SH same as RAF or USMC ??? I am pretty sure we are not still want to confirm from you

- secondly ,in hypothetical scenario , if IN want to operate another jet form Viraat what are the options excluding F-35s

No; we are not operating the same Harriers. Their Harriers are upgraded to 'make them simpler to fly, apart from that their top speed is less than the IN's Harriers'. Otherwise the same birds with different sensors and armaments (in case of the USMC).
I hope that clarifies.

No other jet can operate from Viraat. The F-35 is not on IN's wish-list.

 

[Manindra]

Bro, It was discussed earlier and the conclusion was , "Viraat is too old, operating is as Helo carrier will not be better optional." Once its retire, it will retire. It won't be used as anything else...

I know but some one is proposing to make it missile boat without knowing what is missile boat.

 

[Dillinger]

Some errors in your statement there. The Harrier can out-turn the MiG-29 not because it is slower; but because it is intrinsically designed to be extremely manueverable far more than most fixed wing aircraft. It is the only fixed wing aircraft that can perform like a Helo; because of its design. When the Harrier performed at Air-Shows; it elicited many more "oohs and aahs" than the Pugachev Cobra. Now it seems passe only because the Harrier has been around for long enough.

Now about the Harriers vis-a-vis Fulcrums; the IN Harriers have successfully fought off IAF Fulcrums in Exercise(s) in WVR manuevers. That should say something on whether it can compete with Fulcrums or not. The design of the Harrier was far ahead of its time when it was created, it is not out-dated now. It is just a niche aircraft.

All in all;the Harriers are neither extinct or really vintage as our colleague Sergi would like to think. Ask the USMC about that; though they are lining up a replacement.

Well look at that, one does indeed to get to catch a new thing. Had no idea that there were design specifications aimed at higher maneuverability. I simply assumed that as conventionally a slower aircraft can pull tighter turns that was the end of it.

Although I was simply looking at @Sergi's post from the viewpoint of the Harrier's TTSL/serviceability. He cleared that up for my sake.

Still, I wouldn't put much faith in the Harrier considering that surviving till the merge with a Fulcrum-K will be difficult enough thus lending credence to Sergi's question. Not that it will be facing a 4/4.5 gen bandit anytime soon but if one were to ask the "what if" question I'd rather be the fulcrum driver who gets to take the first shot.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Well look at that, one does indeed to get to catch a new thing. Had no idea that there were design specifications aimed at higher maneuverability. I simply assumed that as conventionally a slower aircraft can pull tighter turns that was the end of it.

Although I was simply looking at @Sergi's post from the viewpoint of the Harrier's TTSL/serviceability. He cleared that up for my sake.

Still, I wouldn't put much faith in the Harrier considering that surviving till the merge with a Fulcrum-K will be difficult enough thus lending credence to Sergi's question. Not that it will be facing a 4/4.5 gen bandit anytime soon but if one were to ask the "what if" question I'd rather be the fulcrum driver who gets to take the first shot.

The design specifications of the Harrier was not aimed at manueverability. Extreme manueverability is intrinsic to the basic design concept of the Harrier. It is the only operational fixed wing aircraft that can mimic a Helo. and also fly supersonic. Do you know what VIFFing is? That is a manuever that is the "Baap" of the Cobra. And more useful in combat; btw.

Then consider that even the Indian Harrier has a better Radar than before as well as BVR missiles. It is no "pushover". And don't fancy your chances too much if you're a Fulcrum Driver. IN's Harriers brought down IAF's Fulcrums in Fleet exercises. The Harrier is just too much of a niche aircraft which the IN (or even the IAF for that matter) cannot afford to operate.

Well look at that, one does indeed to get to catch a new thing. Had no idea that there were design specifications aimed at higher maneuverability. I simply assumed that as conventionally a slower aircraft can pull tighter turns that was the end of it.

Although I was simply looking at @Sergi's post from the viewpoint of the Harrier's TTSL/serviceability. He cleared that up for my sake.

Still, I wouldn't put much faith in the Harrier considering that surviving till the merge with a Fulcrum-K will be difficult enough thus lending credence to Sergi's question. Not that it will be facing a 4/4.5 gen bandit anytime soon but if one were to ask the "what if" question I'd rather be the fulcrum driver who gets to take the first shot.

The design specifications of the Harrier was not aimed at manueverability. Extreme manueverability is intrinsic to the basic design concept of the Harrier. It is the only operational fixed wing aircraft that can mimic a Helo. and also fly supersonic. Do you know what VIFFing is? That is a manuever that is the "Baap" of the Cobra. And more useful in combat; btw.

Then consider that even the Indian Harrier has a better Radar than before as well as BVR missiles. It is no "pushover". And don't fancy your chances too much if you're a Fulcrum Driver. IN's Harriers brought down IAF's Fulcrums in Fleet exercises. The Harrier is just too much of a niche aircraft which the IN (or even the IAF for that matter) cannot afford to operate.

 

[Dillinger]

The design specifications of the Harrier was not aimed at manueverability. Extreme manueverability is intrinsic to the basic design concept of the Harrier. It is the only operational fixed wing aircraft that can mimic a Helo. and also fly supersonic. Do you know what VIFFing is? That is a manuever that is the "Baap" of the Cobra. And more useful in combat; btw.

Then consider that even the Indian Harrier has a better Radar than before as well as BVR missiles. It is no "pushover". And don't fancy your chances too much if you're a Fulcrum Driver. IN's Harriers brought down IAF's Fulcrums in Fleet exercises. The Harrier is just too much of a niche aircraft which the IN (or even the IAF for that matter) cannot afford to operate.



The design specifications of the Harrier was not aimed at manueverability. Extreme manueverability is intrinsic to the basic design concept of the Harrier. It is the only operational fixed wing aircraft that can mimic a Helo. and also fly supersonic. Do you know what VIFFing is? That is a manuever that is the "Baap" of the Cobra. And more useful in combat; btw.

Then consider that even the Indian Harrier has a better Radar than before as well as BVR missiles. It is no "pushover". And don't fancy your chances too much if you're a Fulcrum Driver. IN's Harriers brought down IAF's Fulcrums in Fleet exercises. The Harrier is just too much of a niche aircraft which the IN (or even the IAF for that matter) cannot afford to operate.

Now this is intriguing. How did we manage to fit an ELTA 2032 on a Harrier anyway?

What's the TTSL on these birds by your reckoning (engines and air-frames)?

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Now this is intriguing. How did we manage to fit an ELTA 2032 on a Harrier anyway?

What's the TTSL on these birds by your reckoning (engines and air-frames)?

In what context of the ELTA 2032; is that question being asked?

 

[Dillinger]

In what context of the ELTA 2032; is that question being asked?

Didn't think there was enough physical space as it is to fit the said sensor. I always thought it was some fellow at WIKI being funny.
@Capt.Popeye although hasn't the Harrier had some nasty crashes while in service with the IN?

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Didn't think there was enough physical space as it is to fit the said sensor. I always thought it was some fellow at WIKI being funny.
@Capt.Popeye although hasn't the Harrier had some nasty crashes while in service with the IN?

The Harrier has had nasty crashes with all its operators. You'll find some videos on Youtube to show that. It is not an easy aircraft to fly. The USMC upgrade consisted primaily of changing the flight control system to make it easier to fly for which it sacrificed about 100mph off its speed.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Funny that you should directly come to the conclusion that you have there. What has been the primary function of the INS Viraat and its Harriers? Or the earlier Carrier. Nothing that the IAF has taken over.

Sir I'm just saying in the face of the MKIs, 11 LUSH standard SHs offers very little military utility to the Indian nation. As such the real utility of this ship is as a training vessel.