Will Turkey be added to European list of undemocratic countries?

[Jacob Martin]

I disagree.

Despite all the problems right now, I still think Turkey's future lies with Europe and the West.

If you look at Turkey's history over the course of hundreds of years, you will notice that Turkey has been gradually moving westward in terms of culture, politics and economics.

People mistakenly think that Ataturk was the person who steered Turkey towards the West. In fact, Turkey has been steering westwards since Ottoman times. You can trace it all the way back to the 1600s. The process intensified during the Tanzimat era in the 1800s and was culminated when Ataturk came to power in the 1920s.

So, despite all the internal problems going on in Turkey today, I think these problems will eventually be overcome in the coming decade or so.

Turkey will eventually join the European Union and complete its integration with the West. It's not a question of if but when. It probably has to go through a democracy crisis, but it'll emerge better after it's all over.

As for economics, geography is destiny and Turkey's economy will likely remain tied to Europe for a very long time to come.

There's a huge, unstable landmass between Turkey and the economies of the Far East. Moreover, the economies of the Far East are export-driven economies. Their economies are centered on manufacturing goods that they end up selling to consumer societies in the West. The Far East won't buy Turkish goods. The Far Eastern economies are mainly interested in importing energy from resource-rich countries, which Turkey isn't.

As for the Caucasus countries, Turkey won't gain much from that region. Even Azerbaijan is running out of oil these days.

Turkey's main economic partners will continue to be Germany and other countries of the EU, which is exactly why I don't take any of the recent diplomatic spats between the Germans and Turks seriously because I know that economics trumps politics at the end of the day.

Bravo. In this one post you have shown more goodwill and love towards Turkey and its people than all the posters who are trolling you on account of fake nationalist pride. I just wish they could understand. Sadly, it is Turkey's loss.

Keep up the good work!

 

[xenon54 out]

@Kuwaiti Girl

watch this vdo, this mite tell u why Erdogan has support

Most bullshit video ever, Erdogan has spend ten times more money on his palace than all Atatürk statues combined.

 

[A.A. Khan]

@Kuwaiti Girl

hehehehe if Erdogan left early or in 2012 half of that infrastructure would not be there, i have'nt seen anyone with a vision and leadership as his, in his country or in the muslim world.

Most of his projects are just incredible and need political will which I doubt many would have. The one is Kanal Istanbul it was proposed in 1500s and great architect Mimar Sinan devised plans to do it, canal links Black Sea with Sea of marmara, this is like linking Europe to Asia in 520 years, this was planned 7 times by turkish rulers but was'nt implemented , Erdogan has decided to complete it.

Kanal İstanbul would bisect the current European side of Istanbul and thus form an island between the continents of Asia and Europe (the island would have a shoreline with the Black Sea, Sea of Marmara, the new canal and the Bosphorus). The new waterway would bypass the current Bosphorus. Kanal İstanbul aims to minimise shipping traffic in the Istanbul Strait. The project is intended for the 100th anniversary of the foundation of the Turkish Republic in 2023. There is also new Istanbul Airport to be inaugurated next year which is huge in size. All pictures are of Kanal istanbul [construction started 2013/4], the last picture is of new istanbul airport.

 

[Kuwaiti Girl]

@Kuwaiti Girl

hehehehe if Erdogan left early or in 2012 half of that infrastructure would not be there, i have'nt seen anyone with a vision and leadership as his, in his country or in the muslim world.

Most of his projects are just incredible and need political will which I doubt many would have. The one is Kanal Istanbul it was proposed in 1500s and great architect Mimar Sinan devised plans to do it, canal links Black Sea with Sea of marmara, this is like linking Europe to Asia in 520 years, this was planned 7 times by turkish rulers but was'nt implemented , Erdogan has decided to complete it.

Kanal İstanbul would bisect the current European side of Istanbul and thus form an island between the continents of Asia and Europe (the island would have a shoreline with the Black Sea, Sea of Marmara, the new canal and the Bosphorus). The new waterway would bypass the current Bosphorus. Kanal İstanbul aims to minimise shipping traffic in the Istanbul Strait. The project is intended for the 100th anniversary of the foundation of the Turkish Republic in 2023. There is also new Istanbul Airport to be inaugurated next year which is huge in size. All pictures are of Kanal istanbul [construction started 2013/4], the last picture is of new istanbul airport.
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I know about all these projects because I regularly visit SkyscraperCity lol.

For me, the most important thing in a country is the system and the amount/level of freedom -- not the infrastructure. The infrastructure will always change and evolve. New buildings and roads will continue to replace older ones. All countries are modernizing superficially, including war-torn countries like Iraq.

https://infographics.economist.com/2017/DemocracyIndex/

Turkey had the highest democracy index score in 2012 (5.76 out of 10). In 2016, it got a score of 5.04 out of 10. It's classified as a hybrid regime. It's only 1 score away from being classified as an authoritarian state like Russia.

By contrast, Tunisia got a score of 6.40 out of 10 and is classified as a democracy. Indonesia got a score of 6.97 out of 10 and is also considered a democracy. Senegal, Malaysia and other Muslim-majority countries are also considered democracies by Freedom House organization and The Economist Intelligence Unit.

These things are more important than construction projects.

Kuwait and the other Gulf states have many construction projects as well, but the prisons are filled with innocent people.

So the projects don't mean much to me. I'd rather live in Botswana, which has a successful democratic system but doesn't have skyscrapers and large, state-of-the-art airports.

 

[Zulkarneyn]

Most bullshit video ever, Erdogan has spend ten times more money on his palace than all Atatürk statues combined.

Lol. What a strange comparison. FYI that's not Erdogan's palace, but the presidential palace

 

[A.A. Khan]

I know about all these projects because I regularly visit SkyscraperCity lol.

For me, the most important thing in a country is the system and the amount/level of freedom -- not the infrastructure. The infrastructure will always change and evolve. New buildings and roads will continue to replace older ones. All countries are modernizing superficially, including war-torn countries like Iraq.

https://infographics.economist.com/2017/DemocracyIndex/

Turkey had the highest democracy index score in 2012 (5.76 out of 10). In 2016, it got a score of 5.04 out of 10. It's classified as a hybrid regime. It's only 1 score away from being classified as an authoritarian state like Russia.

By contrast, Tunisia got a score of 6.40 out of 10 and is classified as a democracy. Indonesia got a score of 6.97 out of 10 and is also considered a democracy. Senegal, Malaysia and other Muslim-majority countries are also considered democracies by Freedom House organization and The Economist Intelligence Unit.

These things are more important than construction projects.

Kuwait and the other Gulf states have many construction projects as well, but the prisons are filled with innocent people.

So the projects don't mean much to me. I'd rather live in Botswana, which has a successful democratic system but doesn't have skyscrapers and large, state-of-the-art airports.

ROFL Botswana = Killer diamond country

Well wikipedia does spread disinformation but the way it is conditioning brains like u which lack logic is dangerous.
ITs a UK based piece of crap that called Australia full democracy ROFL. The most racist nation in Asia.

You want to witness democracy select 3 diverse skinned people and walk at 10 pm standard in Melbourne Australia and Istanbul Turkey, u will find more tolerance in Istanbul. Some years back indian students were attacked in Australian cities due to their racism, only nation that had white immigration policy till 1973. Still a shameless country for minorities, native aborigines' suffered hell if by chance an aborigine woman had relationship with white australian and a child was born, the white husband and the australian state used to take away the kid, never to see his mother again. Amazing democracy!!

Democracy is the most stupid term ever invented as its used by idiots. There is a term Human development indicators HDI that has input from world which is more accurate it was devised by a muslim btw a PAkistani namely Mahbub Ul Haq, google that out.

 

[Kuwaiti Girl]

ROFL Botswana = Killer diamond country

Well wikipedia does spread disinformation but the way it is conditioning brains like u which lack logic is dangerous.
ITs a UK based piece of crap that called Australia full democracy ROFL. The most racist nation in Asia.

You want to witness democracy select 3 diverse skinned people and walk at 10 pm standard in Melbourne Australia and Istanbul Turkey, u will find more tolerance in Istanbul. Some years back indian students were attacked in Australian cities due to their racism, only nation that had white immigration policy till 1973. Still a shameless country for minorities, native aborigines' suffered hell if by chance an aborigine woman had relationship with white australian and a child was born, the white husband and the australian state used to take away the kid, never to see his mother again. Amazing democracy!!

Democracy is the most stupid term ever invented as its used by idiots. There is a term Human development indicators HDI that has input from world which is more accurate it was devised by a muslim btw a PAkistani namely Mahbub Ul Haq, google that out.

According to the Human Development Index, the country that you despise, i.e. Australia, is ranked second in the world LMAO.

And Turkey isn't even in the top 50.

So what if the EIU is based in the UK? Are you insinuating that it's going to be biased against Muslim-majority countries? Indonesia, Senegal, Tunisia and Malaysia are all classified as democracies despite their Islamic identity.

Why is Turkey a hybrid regime while other Muslim-majority countries get better scores? It's because Turkey has less civil liberties than many other countries in the Muslim World.

If you insult the prime minister of Australia or the Queen for that matter, you won't go to jail. But if you say that you'll refuse to serve the Turkish president tea, then you'll wind up in jail. That's the difference between Australia and Turkey.

Construction projects are all fine and dandy until you or someone you love gets arbitrarily detained/imprisoned for an indefinite period of time on either false or dubious grounds, which happens regularly in all Middle Eastern countries, including Turkey.

It used to happen frequently in Tunisia as well, but Tunisia is now the only Muslim democracy in the Middle East, and the people there enjoy more civil rights than other Muslims in the region.

 

[A.A. Khan]

According to the Human Development Index, the country that you despise, i.e. Australia, is ranked second in the world LMAO.

And Turkey isn't even in the top 50.

So what if the EIU is based in the UK? Are you insinuating that it's going to be biased against Muslim-majority countries? Indonesia, Senegal, Tunisia and Malaysia are all classified as democracies despite their Islamic identity.

Why is Turkey a hybrid regime while other Muslim-majority countries get better scores? It's because Turkey has less civil liberties than many other countries in the Muslim World.

If you insult the prime minister of Australia or the Queen for that matter, you won't go to jail. But if you say that you'll refuse to serve the Turkish president tea, then you'll wind up in jail. That's the difference between Australia and Turkey.

Construction projects are all fine and dandy until you or someone you love gets arbitrarily detained/imprisoned for an indefinite period of time on either false or dubious grounds, which happens regularly in all Middle Eastern countries, including Turkey.

It used to happen frequently in Tunisia as well, but Tunisia is now the only Muslim democracy in the Middle East, and the people there enjoy more civil rights than other Muslims in the region.

LOL again quoting wikipedia and index dating 2014.

Well the proof is the reader are'nt u [the reader] biased about Turkey? They are all classified as US allies also. Aain making stupid assertion I've visited Tunisia and lived as student in Malaysia. Speaking about politics can get u in jail, civil liberties in US/UK should also be compared once the authorities judge someone as against country how with help of media it destroys lives before charging the individual is knwn t omany, gitmo bay, abu ghraib are someof the shining examples.
Why is Tunisia only democracy cos of women NGOs and women wearing western attire thats how u think democracy comes rofl? Civil rights WTF, did'nt Arab SZpring Libya, Egypt, Syria teach u or u want to remain in delusion lol?

According to the Human Development Index, the country that you despise, i.e. Australia, is ranked second in the world LMAO.

And Turkey isn't even in the top 50.

So what if the EIU is based in the UK? Are you insinuating that it's going to be biased against Muslim-majority countries? Indonesia, Senegal, Tunisia and Malaysia are all classified as democracies despite their Islamic identity.

Why is Turkey a hybrid regime while other Muslim-majority countries get better scores? It's because Turkey has less civil liberties than many other countries in the Muslim World.

If you insult the prime minister of Australia or the Queen for that matter, you won't go to jail. But if you say that you'll refuse to serve the Turkish president tea, then you'll wind up in jail. That's the difference between Australia and Turkey.

Construction projects are all fine and dandy until you or someone you love gets arbitrarily detained/imprisoned for an indefinite period of time on either false or dubious grounds, which happens regularly in all Middle Eastern countries, including Turkey.

It used to happen frequently in Tunisia as well, but Tunisia is now the only Muslim democracy in the Middle East, and the people there enjoy more civil rights than other Muslims in the region.

LOL again quoting wikipedia and index dating 2014.

Well the proof is the reader are'nt u [the reader] biased about Turkey? They are all classified as US allies also. Aain making stupid assertion I've visited Tunisia and lived as student in Malaysia. Speaking about politics can get u in jail, civil liberties in US/UK should also be compared once the authorities judge someone as against country how with help of media it destroys lives before charging the individual is knwn t omany, gitmo bay, abu ghraib are someof the shining examples.
Why is Tunisia only democracy cos of women NGOs and women wearing western attire thats how u think democracy comes rofl? Civil rights WTF, did'nt Arab SZpring Libya, Egypt, Syria teach u or u want to remain in delusion lol?

 

[Attila the Hun]

When Seljuqs first came to Anatolia in 11th century, they didn't adopted the title Sultan of Turks but instead they adopted the title Sultans of Rome. Even though Ottomans weren't a direct Seljuq successor, they used the title as well, claiming that they are the sole successors of Roman emperors. This is not about Republican Period or Ottoman times, Turks have been facing towards the West for almost a thousand years now. We are no different than Polish and/or Russians in that matter. We need to figure out how we position ourselves to start with.

Capitalism does not like societies that closes themselves to the outside world, this is why West decided to wage a war against Muslims. Without a doubt, with the current situation of the Muslim world, they will win. Turks should position themselves accordingly. We could be the next Iran, a crippled economy with no real high-tech production base. Or we could stay to be Republic of Turkey, enjoying an alliance with the West while retaining our relations with Eastern countries.

And btw, with whom in the East we should ally ourselves exactly? With China, a state we have quarreled with for about 2000 years or so? With India, who can offer absolutely nothing that Germany or US can't? Even a moderate FTA with those nations could swallow our economy. I study in the university where Aselsan's next generation radar modules and Atak's MMW radar is being R&D'ed. 90 percent of my teachers had their doctorates from the universities in the US, while remaining of them came from EU countries. West is where our technology base is coming from. No one in the East can offer such a deal for us.

Fantastic post.

We need to stick with Europe for now. The east has NOTHING to offer us. They actually dislike us more than the Europeans do funnily enough. What exactly do we gain with the east? Like you stated, we certainly don't get any investments or even tourists from the east.

@waz @WebMaster @Jango @Zaki this person is insulting our flag, not only the flag itself but also putting it in the same picture as isis flag which is a big insult to the soldiers that lost their life while fighting those terrorists, do something about this troll.

Just let her have her fun. It's best we know how these easterners feel about us

 

[aryadravida_exmuslim]

Turkey will never let Europe go. You'll hear them talking about how they don't care about NATO and EU and so on, but even Erdoğan knows that's where the future lies.

It'll be an acid test for Turkey, but they're ready to go through anything. Without economic growth, even Erdoğan cannot hold onto power.

On a related note, can someone tell me how an average Türk justifies their desire to remove Assad?
1. He tortured and killed Syrians. (The proof is debatable, and we know how friendly Erdoğan and Assad were.)
2. Assad concentrated terrorists (i.e. Kurds) on the border and thus threatened Turkey.

Anything else? "He's Alawite" doesn't count.
And please elaborate point 2 if it's indeed used.
I'm not trying to have an argument. I'm genuinely curious. My experience is that I was immediately shut off once I said Turkey had a hand in the rebellion, as much as the USA.
"We did nothing first, but Assad must go. He did stuff, that's why we let people go there through us."

(Direct me to a proper thread if it's off topic.)

EDIT: I am not looking for the "actual" reasons of their desire or your opinion and so on. I've my own ideas on what's happening. I'm asking about the reasons ordinary Türks give and the feeling in the air.

 

[CrimsonFury]

Why are we even a member of this fuxking council ? It simply gives Euros more tools to pressure us. The only thing we can do with Euros is trade with them ,any other links, especially "cultural" should be degraded to the point where they are irrelevant.

 

[xenon54 out]

Lol. What a strange comparison. FYI that's not Erdogan's palace, but the presidential palace

No its not, the video is crying about Atatürk statues, a man who saved and rebuild the country.
But when it comes to 1000 room palace its not wasting money? What was that palace called when Erdogan was prime minister? Yeah right it was called prime ministry. Now that Erdogan became president its became presidency....

Apart from that in Germany there are 10'000 cars for ministers the number in Turkey is 10 times of that, the most luxury cars in the market.



Here a comparison of Religion ministry budget to others:

1.8 times larger than the budget allocated to the Ministry of Health.
1.9 times larger than the budget allocated to the Ministry of Industry, Science and Technology.
2.4 times larger than the budget allocated to the Ministry of Environment and Urban Planning.
2.5 times larger than the budget allocated to the Ministry of Culture and Tourism.
2.9 times larger than the budget allocated to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
3.4 times larger than the budget allocated to the Ministry of Economy.
3.8 times larger than the budget of the Ministry of Development.
4.6 times larger than the budget allocated to MIT – Secret Services.
5,0 times larger than the budget allocated to the Department of Emergency and Disaster Management.
7.7 times larger than the budget allocated to the Ministry of Energy and Natural Resources.
9.1 times larger than the budget allocated to the Ministry of Customs and Trade.
10.7 times greater than the budget allocated to Coast Guard.
21.6 times greater than the budget allocated to the Ministry of the European Union.
242 times larger than the budget for the National Security Council.
268 times more important than the budget allocated to the Ministry of Public Employee.”

Why does religion need so much money?
But Atatürk statues are waste of money, yeah right....

 

[breakingbad]

Interesting debate for us neutrals.
Turkey with a per capita of 10000 usd has to decide between the west and the east ?
So basically France and Germany vs S Arabia and Pakistan. Tough call !!

 

[Zulkarneyn]

No its not, the video is crying about Atatürk statues, a man who saved and rebuild the country.
But when it comes to 1000 room palace its not wasting money? What was that palace called when Erdogan was prime minister? Yeah right it was called prime ministry. Now that Erdogan became president its became presidency....

Apart from that in Germany there are 10'000 cars for ministers the number in Turkey is 10 times of that, the most luxury cars in the market.



Here a comparison of Religion ministry budget to others:

1.8 times larger than the budget allocated to the Ministry of Health.
1.9 times larger than the budget allocated to the Ministry of Industry, Science and Technology.
2.4 times larger than the budget allocated to the Ministry of Environment and Urban Planning.
2.5 times larger than the budget allocated to the Ministry of Culture and Tourism.
2.9 times larger than the budget allocated to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
3.4 times larger than the budget allocated to the Ministry of Economy.
3.8 times larger than the budget of the Ministry of Development.
4.6 times larger than the budget allocated to MIT – Secret Services.
5,0 times larger than the budget allocated to the Department of Emergency and Disaster Management.
7.7 times larger than the budget allocated to the Ministry of Energy and Natural Resources.
9.1 times larger than the budget allocated to the Ministry of Customs and Trade.
10.7 times greater than the budget allocated to Coast Guard.
21.6 times greater than the budget allocated to the Ministry of the European Union.
242 times larger than the budget for the National Security Council.
268 times more important than the budget allocated to the Ministry of Public Employee.”

Why does religion need so much money?
But Atatürk statues are waste of money, yeah right....

I haven't watched the video, but i don't think we are short of Atatürk's statues around the country. I don't understand the necessity of reminding him every second to be honest. And don't find a post from 7 years ago where i wrote someting critical about him.

If we are talking about waste in the ministries, well i'm 100% in agreement. I think Turkish political structure allows too much corruption when it comes to financial allowance etc. Yet, this isn't special for one party over another, it's deeply engrained in the political culture as a whole.

On a related note, can someone tell me how an average Türk justifies their desire to remove Assad?
1. He tortured and killed Syrians. (The proof is debatable, and we know how friendly Erdoğan and Assad were.)
2. Assad concentrated terrorists (i.e. Kurds) on the border and thus threatened Turkey.

In the beginning Turks generally took a very anti-Assad stance because Assad violently cracked down on the protests wherein thousands were left dead. Today we don't want to have a PKK neighbour south of our border

 

[xenon54 out]

I haven't watched the video, but i don't think we are short of Atatürk's statues around the country. I don't understand the necessity of reminding him every second to be honest. And don't find a post from 7 years ago where i wrote someting critical about him.

The video says previous goverments wasted money on statues but is silent about the waste today which is much bigger.
Besides i have never attacked you personally, also not in my previous post, dont get defensive.